Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

[Eight0Eight]

I have problems switching from 8mg to 6mg. I switched last Saturday morning. It's Monday evening. Three days have passed and I have chills, cold flashes and mild diarrhea..

Thats really unusual.

Normally people don't tend to start feeling it until they get to 2mg or less.

Do they make suboxone in 0.4/0.2mg pills (like they do subutex)? - if so try dropping by 0.4 every week..

If not, try going down to 7mg If you get the 2mg pills thats easy to do.


*Also - WHY are you quitting subs? It might be an idea to stay on 8mg for a while - unless you can't afford it, then I tottally understand (can't beleive you have to pay for bupe)..

 

[Oxymorphone]

Hey people, new thread. Anyway I just looked at the .pdf about injecting subutex and its complication and it freaked me out a bit. I know some were arterial injections but still the chance that that could happen was unerving when I was planning to try it again.

I was forced into withdrawal with no bupe for a four day period which was hell (long story), but I did get kinda high when I finally took an 8mg tablet and it was amazing how fast I felt good as new then nodding a bit and having a euphoric experience being in an almost dreamlike yet conscious state. My dose has been erratic the last week but I have worked it out with the 30 hour half life so that there is about 2mg sublingual worth of suboxone in my system as of this morning. I would like to get high off it and be able to IV it and get some positive effects.

I wish I could get microns but they seem hard to find and expensive. If I do IV it again I will definitely filter it the best I can. If you can't find bacteriostatic water what is the best alternative? I was shooting tap water and I don't want to do that again....

 

[socio]

Does SJW potentiate/intensify Buprenorphine (or Norbuprenorphine)?

Anyone recall the flurry of postings (here and on other boards) about potentiating Suboxone with St John's Wort? Some people said they experienced recreational euphoria (even among MAINTENANCE users, doing it sublingual). But others got nothing or withdrawal. I thought it was a "real placebo effect," if that makes any sense (since in real life, unlike clinical trials, conscious humans knowingly take substances for intentional purposes).

Sorry if off-topic... wanted to revive this issue since I don't think anyone reached "closure"... I posted the full version in "advanced drug discussion" because it seemed too long (and I seem too new) to just throw it all in the Megathread, but here's the summary of what I found by tabulating individual reports from numerous different forums:

Table: Atypical Opiate Experiences when Combining SJW and Buprenorphine
Experience/Attribution...Number of Individuals...Percent of Total
1. Positively positive......8.................................38 %
2. Possibly positive........5................................. 24%
3. Neutral.....................6..................... ............29%
4. Possibly negative......0................................... 0%
5. Positively negative.....2.................................10%
Total............................21............... .................100%

For more detail:
"A Study of Subjective Experiences of Concurrent Consumption of SJW and Suboxone"
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=477759

Any thoughts? Don't mean to be repetitive with my other post, but I guess here is where some people may (or may not) actually be interested in this.

 

[Oxymorphone]

Does SJW potentiate/intensify Buprenorphine (or Norbuprenorphine)?

Anyone recall the flurry of postings (here and on other boards) about potentiating Suboxone with St John's Wort? Some people said they experienced recreational euphoria (even among MAINTENANCE users, doing it sublingual). But others got nothing or withdrawal. SWIM thought it was a "real placebo effect," if that makes any sense (since in real life, unlike clinical trials, conscious humans knowingly take substances for intentional purposes).

Sorry if off-topic... wanted to revive this issue since I don't think anyone reached "closure"... I posted the full version in "advanced drug discussion" because it seemed too long (and I seem too new) to just throw it all in the Megathread, but here's the summary of what I found by tabulating individual reports from numerous different forums:

Table: Atypical Opiate Experiences when Combining SJW and Buprenorphine
Experience/Attribution...Number of Individuals...Percent of Total
1. Positively positive......8.................................38 %
2. Possibly positive........5................................. 24%
3. Neutral.....................6..................... ............29%
4. Possibly negative......0................................... 0%
5. Positively negative.....2.................................10%
Total............................21............... .................100%

For more detail:
"A Study of Subjective Experiences of Concurrent Consumption of SJW and Suboxone"
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=477759

Any thoughts? Don't mean to be repetitive with my other post, but I guess here is where some people may (or may not) actually be interested in this.

First off, we don't use SWIM here- it's pointless, against the rules, and annoying to read so just refer to yourself as normal.

Anyway interesting post, I have never even heard of this. What exactly is this substance and how would it chemically interact with bupe to potentate it? This is of particular interest if it allows users on maintenance to experience a high and euphoria. Please elaborate, I don't even know what the hell SJW is, where you would get it and how much to take.


Different topic: How long do you have to be off bupe if you are taking it regularly to get high off other opiates or how much would you have to take to "break through" the bupe boundary. Lets say with oxycodone for someone taking 2mg per day for example.

 

[socio]

Please elaborate, I don't even know what the hell SJW is, where you would get it and how much to take.


Different topic: How long do you have to be off bupe if you are taking it regularly to get high off other opiates or how much would you have to take to "break through" the bupe boundary. Lets say with oxycodone for someone taking 2mg per day for example.

Good to know about the non-SWIMiness...

SJW = St John's Wort, OTC herbal anti-depressant available at chain drug stores, herbal shops, etc. Apparently it is an INDUCER of the CYP3A4 liver enzyme, which is responsible for breaking down opiates, benzos, other fun stuff. Usually people take CYP3A4-inhibitors (grapefruit, cimetidine/Tagamet) to slow metabolism/potentiate drugs. (This is the extent of my knowledge of human biology... and, I guess, that using dollar-store condoms for heterosexual intercourse sometimes leads to babies.) But the theory is you want (for euphoria) to metabolize MORE of the Buprenorphine FASTER into its metabolite Norbuprenorphine, which feels more like a full opiate.

Don't know, sounds plausible, but Norbup is supposedly much less safe (usually ok since Bup blockades its own metabolite...that is, unless you increase metabolism to screw with the ratios of Bup to Norbup). Basically, I just got to wondering if there was a way to systematically tabulate users' experiences (or if there is a point), since these forums potentially share valuable information, but usually just in an "impressionistic" rumor style... and had some time on my hands.

On "beating" the blockade: my experiences vary a lot. I've waited a whole week after stopping 8mg of Suboxone and got nothing from IV heroin (but I tapered off Subs onto H, meaning my tolerance was also elevated by the end of the week; bad idea). Sometimes I've taken oxy (orally, IV, nasal) the same day as 2-4mg and gotten good effects. It helps that you're only at 2mg. IMO, you should be able to feel *something* any time, but diminished for 24-48 hrs. I'd wait 2 days (or +), unless you have enough to spare .

 

[StaffWriter]

St. John's Wort.


Anyway, my doc prescribed me Subutex so I could get the generic and Walgreens says it is on back order from the distribution facility until mid. Feb. So I spent $130 on 20 8mg. tabs from R&B.

 

[socio]

the generic and Walgreens says it is on back order from the distribution facility until mid. Feb. So I spent $130 on 20 8mg. tabs from R&B.

Same at my Walgreen's. What annoyed me was that they told me they would no longer give me Walgreen's prescription plan "discount" (I think it used to be like 20 or 25% ) on 8mg Suboxone because now there's a generic available!

Switched from Suboxone to Subutex for generic? From 2 to 8mg? They have generic 8mg Suboxone now too (if you can find it).

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Can't believe pharmacists are so fucking dumb.

The one I go to now take me into a little room and sit right opposite me and watch me take put the "Subutex" in my mouth.

The thing is, is that what I put into my mouth is actually a piece of damp, rolled up tissue - and the sub is still firmly in my hand! TBH, I actually find it more of a buzz than the sub itself!

LOL!

I congratulate you 808.

Fuck that shit. I'm glad I'm in the states where they send me on my way w/ a month's worth at a time.

well shooting subs gives you a euphoric high ?
and i may get some poppy tea ? anyone else like it

It's somewhat of a euphoric high. It's not as euphoric as heroin but it's there for sure. Some people don't get euphoria or a high out of it though.

 

[Oxymorphone]

Good to know about the non-SWIMiness...

SJW = St John's Wort, OTC herbal anti-depressant available at chain drug stores, herbal shops, etc. Apparently it is an INDUCER of the CYP3A4 liver enzyme, which is responsible for breaking down opiates, benzos, other fun stuff. Usually people take CYP3A4-inhibitors (grapefruit, cimetidine/Tagamet) to slow metabolism/potentiate drugs. (This is the extent of my knowledge of human biology... and, I guess, that using dollar-store condoms for heterosexual intercourse sometimes leads to babies.) But the theory is you want (for euphoria) to metabolize MORE of the Buprenorphine FASTER into its metabolite Norbuprenorphine, which feels more like a full opiate.

Don't know, sounds plausible, but Norbup is supposedly much less safe (usually ok since Bup blockades its own metabolite...that is, unless you increase metabolism to screw with the ratios of Bup to Norbup). Basically, I just got to wondering if there was a way to systematically tabulate users' experiences (or if there is a point), since these forums potentially share valuable information, but usually just in an "impressionistic" rumor style... and had some time on my hands.

On "beating" the blockade: my experiences vary a lot. I've waited a whole week after stopping 8mg of Suboxone and got nothing from IV heroin (but I tapered off Subs onto H, meaning my tolerance was also elevated by the end of the week; bad idea). Sometimes I've taken oxy (orally, IV, nasal) the same day as 2-4mg and gotten good effects. It helps that you're only at 2mg. IMO, you should be able to feel *something* any time, but diminished for 24-48 hrs. I'd wait 2 days (or +), unless you have enough to spare .

Very interesting. I would like to know more on this as well. I'll save the 40mg oxycodone I inherited for something else or another occasion. Anyway I'm going to try shooting .5mg suboxone and see if I get anything. I doubt it but we'll see. So what's the best bottled water to use if you can't get anything else?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Very interesting. I would like to know more on this as well. I'll save the 40mg oxycodone I inherited for something else or another occasion. Anyway I'm going to try shooting .5mg suboxone and see if I get anything. I doubt it but we'll see. So what's the best bottled water to use if you can't get anything else?

Someone listed the best water sources to use. Bacteriostatic water is the best.

If you can't get that, boil tap water.

Cool site and nice guide. You seem like a cool guy!

One problem though: bottled water is not an ideal source of injection water. I'd rate boiled tap water over bottled water. Please mention that all water from non-sterile sources should be boiled. When ever I shoot, I put my water (usually from a bottle) into the microwave in a cup with a plate over the top and nuked it for 4 minutes.

Bottled water is a known source for bacteria that is known to cause endocarditis (the inflammation and infection of the lining of the heart and/or the heart valves - ie. the endocardium). The bacteria responsible are of the "Pseudomonas" genus. Endocarditis can be DEADLY, it is a very real threat!

Maybe you could mention that endocarditis is also caused by IV users licking the needle before inserting it. It's caused by a group of organisms that I can't remember the name of (nor is it important in this context). The mouth is the most dirty party of the body, I can't fathom why users would lick their pins before jabbing themselves.

PubMed - Antibiotic-resistant Pseudomonas in bottled drinking water
Information about Pseudomonas

Keep up the good work!

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=3726258&postcount=3

I used tap water for a long time without boiling it, but I am now using bacteriostatic water. I ordered some online since I'm about to run out of the 5mL tubes the exchange gives out.

 

[Oxymorphone]

Someone listed the best water sources to use. Bacteriostatic water is the best.

If you can't get that, boil tap water.



http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=3726258&postcount=3

I used tap water for a long time without boiling it, but I am now using bacteriostatic water. I ordered some online since I'm about to run out of the 5mL tubes the exchange gives out.

Thanks. I IVed .8mg and feel relaxed but not euphoria or anything crazy as usual. It seems I have to force myself into withdrawal to get high off bupe... I guess it will just take time. I am perfectly fine on 2mg per day although it has been a little erratic, taking 8mg then skipping two days and such to be at my 2mg target, it was an odd circumstance, now I can get on a more regular schedule.

I think I can easilly get down to 1mg per day. It's just a little hard to measure and cut the 8mg pills so small. I guess the best method would be to take a ~2mg quarter from an 8, crush it to powder and divide the powder into doses. Two piles for 1mg each, then if I IV it I suppose dividing the 1mg pile into thirds would be equivalent to the sublingual dose for a ~.3mg IV dose. Does that sound like a good plan and at that threshold do you think I will be able to experience some euphoria eventually? I may try to go lower or split that up even further into multiple doses, I would just like to minimize pricking myself. Even the 31Gs leave little marks and tiny bruises if I hit the same area 4-5 times, but no one notices.

Anyway what's the story on the micron filters? Where can I get them and how much do they cost? I think we need a micron filter/shooting pills megathread with resources and information for people on harm reduction and where they can get microns, the appropriate syringes to use them with, storage vials, etc. There was some good discussion in this or another thread that could be a good foundation for it. What do you think? %)

 

[socio]

dose for a ~.3mg IV dose. Does that sound like a good plan and at that threshold do you think I will be able to experience some euphoria eventually?

I know people who stick to 2mg so they can still get high at any moment... Not full effects, but enough to make it worth it to them once in a while.

At 0.3mg I don't think you'll have much blockade at all. Maybe 10-20%, possibly less? You can find studies online reporting the %/opiate full agonists bloackaded by various dosages of Buprenorphine. In one study a 2mg daily dose only blockaded 36-50% of hydromorphone/dilaudid (note: daily dose means probably 5-6mg floating around in the body from previous days). 16mg blocked like 79-95%--if I understand the article correclty. (Greenwald etl al, 2003, "Effects of Buprenorphine Maintenance..." Neuropsychopharmacology; can find it on google.)

So, you should definitely get more than half of the oxy, possibly much more than half. But this will vary from opioid-to-opioid (it reportedly has less ability to antagonize methadone). (Also, consider that your ROA is boosting the levels in your blood; the report above is for sublingual.)

But IMO I don't think 0.3mg will make an appreciable difference (or help you much in the event of OD, as 2mg might). You just may have to go back up to 1 or 2mg after a couple days if your dependence-level gets boosted by recreational blockade busting and leads to w/d. And you definitely don't want to IV (subutex or suboxone) after doing the oxy holiday. (Made that mistake! Woulda called 9-1-1 but was too busy writhing on the bathroom floor.)

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Anyway what's the story on the micron filters? Where can I get them and how much do they cost? I think we need a micron filter/shooting pills megathread with resources and information for people on harm reduction and where they can get microns, the appropriate syringes to use them with, storage vials, etc. There was some good discussion in this or another thread that could be a good foundation for it. What do you think? %)

gpzservices.com

$5/each

you need luer lock syringes without a needle. it's on the same site, they come in packs of ten on the product page "syringe only".

Also, the media bottles on there are what you want - you just need to sterilize them.

 

[Oxymorphone]

I know people who stick to 2mg so they can still get high at any moment... Not full effects, but enough to make it worth it to them once in a while.

At 0.3mg I don't think you'll have much blockade at all. Maybe 10-20%, possibly less? You can find studies online reporting the %/opiate full agonists bloackaded by various dosages of Buprenorphine. In one study a 2mg daily dose only blockaded 36-50% of hydromorphone/dilaudid (note: daily dose means probably 5-6mg floating around in the body from previous days). 16mg blocked like 79-95%--if I understand the article correclty. (Greenwald etl al, 2003, "Effects of Buprenorphine Maintenance..." Neuropsychopharmacology; can find it on google.)

So, you should definitely get more than half of the oxy, possibly much more than half. But this will vary from opioid-to-opioid (it reportedly has less ability to antagonize methadone). (Also, consider that your ROA is boosting the levels in your blood; the report above is for sublingual.)

But IMO I don't think 0.3mg will make an appreciable difference (or help you much in the event of OD, as 2mg might). You just may have to go back up to 1 or 2mg after a couple days if your dependence-level gets boosted by recreational blockade busting and leads to w/d. And you definitely don't want to IV (subutex or suboxone) after doing the oxy holiday. (Made that mistake! Woulda called 9-1-1 but was too busy writhing on the bathroom floor.)

At 2mg per day how mcuh do they take to get high? I IVed .8 today which is like 2.5-3mg sublingual and I know I had about 2mg (sublingual dose worth) in my system from calculating dosages, timing, and half life and didn't feel much. Do I need to push it more?

I'm going ot hold off on the oxy for a while or possibly never since it seems like relapsing sort of instead of abusing something I am prescribed. Also with a limited amount I would want the full effects. Should I try taking MORE suboxone now to try to get somewhere and hit a sweet spot or just hold off and wait for another day or week or whatever?

 

[Oxymorphone]

gpzservices.com

$5/each

you need luer lock syringes without a needle. it's on the same site, they come in packs of ten on the product page "syringe only".

Also, the media bottles on there are what you want - you just need to sterilize them.

Hey I just posted a new thread and found some great deals on gear and
I'm sure you can correct me and add knowledge to it. I'll check that out but the $1 microns I found seem hard to beat.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

At 2mg per day how mcuh do they take to get high? I IVed .8 today which is like 2.5-3mg sublingual and I know I had about 2mg (sublingual dose worth) in my system from calculating dosages, timing, and half life and didn't feel much. Do I need to push it more?

I'm going ot hold off on the oxy for a while or possibly never since it seems like relapsing sort of instead of abusing something I am prescribed. Also with a limited amount I would want the full effects. Should I try taking MORE suboxone now to try to get somewhere and hit a sweet spot or just hold off and wait for another day or week or whatever?

If you are having WD symptoms, cravings, etc then sure use more Suboxone. If not, wait a while.

If your IV dose didn't really go all that well I would stick to the sublingual route for a while.

If I could go back in time and tell myself to hold onto all those N8's and save shooting them for when my opiate tolerance finally dropped I would.

 

[Oxymorphone]

If you are having WD symptoms, cravings, etc then sure use more Suboxone. If not, wait a while.

If your IV dose didn't really go all that well I would stick to the sublingual route for a while.

If I could go back in time and tell myself to hold onto all those N8's and save shooting them for when my opiate tolerance finally dropped I would.

I have enough where I will never have to worry and will have a constant supply of more than I need. Are you running short there? If you have a suboxone doc I would just tell them you need 24-32mg while you stick yo your low dose.

I don't feel WD's, I was just wondering if I didn't take enough to get a little high. Aside from the risks of IV use why stick to sublingual?

 

[Oxymorphone]

Now I feel it a bit after a second .8 dose.

Not total nodding euphoria but a wave of relaxation that swept over me as I was pushing the plunger halfway down. I'm sure I could go into that dreamlike state I love if I close my eyes and relax. I'm not there yet but this little taste of pleasure is encouraging and I want to stick to a good daily regimen dose and space out how often I can go over that to feel high. If only I got a full high like a non opiate user would every time, that would e pure bliss.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I have enough where I will never have to worry and will have a constant supply of more than I need. Are you running short there? If you have a suboxone doc I would just tell them you need 24-32mg while you stick yo your low dose.

I don't feel WD's, I was just wondering if I didn't take enough to get a little high. Aside from the risks of IV use why stick to sublingual?

Nah I have plenty now. The reason why I initially liked Suboxone sublingually was because of its long duration and it helps you lower your opiate tolerance efficiently. It's really a personal choice, if you didn't get a super high opiate tolerance in the beginning well then if you want to go straight to shooting it then that's completely up to you really.

Now I feel it a bit after a second .8 dose.

Not total nodding euphoria but a wave of relaxation that swept over me as I was pushing the plunger halfway down. I'm sure I could go into that dreamlike state I love if I close my eyes and relax. I'm not there yet but this little taste of pleasure is encouraging and I want to stick to a good daily regimen dose and space out how often I can go over that to feel high. If only I got a full high like a non opiate user would every time, that would e pure bliss.

Cool, good to hear man. Once I get to where I like to be I like to wait at least 4-6 hours if possible before redosing so as to get the most out of each dose. But it sounds like you are planning for that, so good job.

 

[Oxymorphone]

Nah I have plenty now. The reason why I initially liked Suboxone sublingually was because of its long duration and it helps you lower your opiate tolerance efficiently. It's really a personal choice, if you didn't get a super high opiate tolerance in the beginning well then if you want to go straight to shooting it then that's completely up to you really.



Cool, good to hear man. Once I get to where I like to be I like to wait at least 4-6 hours if possible before redosing so as to get the most out of each dose.

Yeah I think my tolerance is low now. I just want some microns... The last thing I'm worried about is running out of suboxone, I have plenty it doesn't matter if I waste a few mg. I'm just worried about taking too much so that it cancels out the high. That's how it works right? If you take over a certain amount the antagonist aspect kicks in and blocks the agonist. Is this a problem at the type of doses I'm taking? Based on what you know about the dosing I've posted and your experience, if I did another shot of .5mg would I be more likely to go up or down?