Skydancer -- A Democratic Bluelight *see first post for link to Skydancer's response*

I am glad to see that SD made his post. Whether people agree with it our not it was good to see him spend the time and explain his position on these issues.

But, what about Catch, I think the irresponsible of him to not post his thoughts.
 
Kyk said:
FOX!!!!
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Kyk!
FoX!
Me!

Walter, that was an incredibly well thought out response. I'm perhaps being optimistic in thinking that you might be reading this reply, but well - have to try. I'd like to hopefully provide you with some food for thought.

I think Spencer absolutely nailed it when he talked about communication. This thread was originally posted as a result of the proposed changes to EDD. The way in which those changes were communicated was lousy. Go back and read Catch-22's original post. I'm sure you know what a straw man is, and he constructs a fair few of them in that post as he dismisses objections before those objections are even made. You come close to doing that with your response here, specifically in the "questions" you put in our mouths. It seems to me that neither of you is showing an awful lot of respect to us. How much angst could have been avoided with a better explanation of what was going on at the start?

I also think you're being overly dismissive of many of the posters in this thread "they're ex-mods for a reason". Well, no. We are ex-mods for many reasons. But we all care passionately about BL. We may be wrong, but we care. And you know, looking down that list of names, that those posters have contributed a hell of a lot here.

On the technical side: BL is waaay better than it was. Anyone who remembers not being able to use the search engine will agree with that. Respect to whoever has done the hard work in making this happen. On the quality of information side, interesting point. It might be instructive to objectively evaluate that sometime (if I get really bored, I might just try to do that....)

On the membership side: I obviously don't have access to the data you have. But I wonder, how many of the 'new' registrations are alter-egos? There's a hell of a lot of post-whoring and many many multiple user accounts. I'd hope that you're taking that into consideration (and excluding the Lounge from any measure of user numbers/post numbers - I think including it would give a false picture of the true worth of this site).

You mentioned that Catch took on a lot of jobs that no-one else wanted. This is true, pretty much. When Catch started taking on a heavy workload he was Trip Reports mod, IIRC. I was a mod too, and I never really stuck my hand up for anything. Why? Becuase I didn't think it was my place. I felt like the admins knew what they were doing, and if they didn't they'd ask for things to be done. They didn't. Catch saw that things needed to be done and did them, and credit to him for that. But as for the rest of us, call it a communications gap - many of us didn't realise what needed to be done. (Maybe you only needed to ask...though I'm aware that some people did promise things and fail to deliver...)

On the issue of your workloads - surely that's part of the point of what people are saying to you? If you're too busy, maybe involving other people a bit more is a solution?

I don't know. I hope you do what's best. Remember that two people can make decisions based on emotion, not reason, just as easily as 50 people can. And thank you for what this place has given me over the past five years or so.

~Simon~
 
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what i might add to this is that these issues have been building in the underbelly of bluelight for quite awhile now. how they have been addressed, until recently, by myself and others has been less than tactful. BUT, it has not been for a lack of passion for the site, quite the contrary, much of our outpouring has simply been misguided and intereprited the wrong way. i would urge everyone on both sides simply to understand the caring that we are trying to express, and the real pain that the troubles here are causing us.

thats all i've got for now...more later.
 
Blue_Lava said:
Accountability... The masses must feel they have some say over things. Hence, perhaps we should investigate further how to incorporate some democratic features as xtcxtc had originally suggested.
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Perhaps my use of transparency doesn't match other people's version, but your request for accountability goes hand in hand with much of what I tried to say (and seem to have failed at). I think most would concede a true democracy is not feasible for several reasons (bogged down in getting *everyone's* input, polls skewed by favoritism/alteregos/trolls, etc). A modified democracy in which a few people are entrusted to represent the many and act in their best interest - well that's what we've got with mods representing members, as well Admins representing mods and members. The degree to which a representative listens to the consituents - now that can be debated, but I'd venture the statement we *are* trying to improve that. We are trying to improve the upward input for decision making, and the Sr. Admins are willing to listen to the Admins who are willing to listen to the Mods who are willing to listen to the members. My use of transparency wasn't meant as "allow people to see what is coming before it hits them" but more of "let people see what is coming and help us plan to accomodate it - have input on the best course of action, help implement new policies or changes where needed." *argh* I"m losing my point...but I'll come back to this.


with the flattening of the hierarchy - particularly with the increase of the number of senior moderators - what's the thinking regarding the role of moderator (especially in light of recent events in EDD) at bluelight?
alasdair


I don't believe there is any change (certainly none to my knowledge) regarding the role of a forum moderator. The increase in Sr. Mods is a reflection of individuals seen as capable and willing to take on more responsibility within the site - thus they were given more responsibility. Flattening of hierarchy? Perhaps I'm mis-interpreting this comment, but I haven't seen a change in heirarchy, simply a change to the flow of information, and thusly a shift in who has input on decisions. The number of Sr. Mods implies nothing, IMO, about forum mods. The role of forum mods is still a focus on a specific forum - keep discussions on topic, handle members or posts that get out of hand, call in someone with moer power when required. The significant change, at least as far as I can discern, is an effort to listen more to those mods on what needs to be done to improve a forum rather than just telling them. Get their input beforehand, use their help to guide and implement decisions. I'd say the view of forum mods is/should-be front line persons in touch with the needs of the forum members - valuable staffbeing available for input and the true muscle to make things happen. But, that's my opinion ;)
 
So this is it? 17 pages of nothing. Nothing's been changed, nothing's been bettered.

We're just laying here being fucked like bitches when we accept skydancer's bullshit reply that didn't even begin to address the issues that we brought up early in the thread.

Makes me question "what's the fucking point?".
 
basically all the points in this thread are proven true by Walt's statement and Brian's lack of statement. because we already know everythign was true, we knew from the start that this sort of discussion was doomed from the start, that it woudl never come to anything. perhaps its just the last thing needed to come to acceptance with the fact that, no matter how much we care about this site, no matter how much effort we've put into improving this place, it still doesnt matter *shrug* :\
 
Roger&Me said:
We're just laying here being fucked like bitches
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why do you keep coming to a site where you feel like you're getting fucked like a bitch?

if you protest a walmart while shopping there, it doesn't make much of a statement, does it?
 
"They said 'love it or leave it', but I love it enough to want to change it for the better".

Or something.

I don't feel like I'm being fucked like a bitch, but you see my point, right?

I think TLB made a very good post and hopefully the things that he described will come to pass.
 
TLB, I think the ideas you've put forth are great. Looking for input from others is a critical leadership skill. One that is appreciated whether it's employees, or message board members. However, to clarify, 'accountability' means you have to answer to someone. If I screw up at work, I answer to my boss. If I screw up at home, I answer to my partner. So, who do senior admins answer too? That was what I was trying to get at. I fully agree with you that trying to manage little details with a genuine democracy is insane. However, a representative democracy doesn't do that. Someone is entrusted to do what they feel is right. At the end of a term, that person gets held accountable. If they did great, they get re-elected. If people weren't so sure about a person's performance, someone else will be given a try. So, while improved communication is definately a step in the right direction and does employ some level of accountability (in that others may critique your idea), it does not provide any true accountability. If it doesn't have teeth, it's not accountability. This is not directed at anyone in particular. It's a structural issue that has ill effects IMO and needs to be corrected. So, what do people think of term limits, with either popular elections, or a college of electors.... like the mods and other admins? Or, is this being too formal for a damn message board?
 
I think a constitution of some sort which lays out the organisational framework of BL, in much the same way the BULA outlines its mission, would be a great step. It would go some real distance in formalising and documenting how procedures like the one initially discussed here reach fruition. Such guidelines could head off potential conflict, and surely increase accountablity and transparency. If the terms of the constitution are made reasonable to both those who run the site and those whom use it, the document provides objective mediation of both.

I'm surprised we don't have one already, although the old 'moderators handbook' in MPC is on the right track. Something like this is required, only with broader scope.
 
I agree 100% with everything Catch 22 has contributed to this thread.
 
So is this dead? TLB and Friz have answered the issues quite well (as i expected of them :)), but C22 seems not to care what people think...

sooooo....?
 
Spencer, this is an excellent post! I agree completely with your sentiment. WHilst I appreciate Walt's response, I think he still missed the major issue - it's not the actions people are concerned about, it's the lack of effective communication. Thankyou.

Spencer said:
First off, I'd like to start by offering a bit of an apology to skydancer. Technically speaking, the site does run better than it ever has, and based on how challenging this issue was when I was part of the staff, I must commend him on an excellent job in overcoming those issues. However, this is a social board. No one gives a damn about the techinical achievements of a message board. Its a social environment and it's social problems need to be addressed with far more importance than its technical ones.

I admit freely that I, and probably many people that have posted in this thread, have been ill-informed about the amount of work that Walt and Brian put into this site. Having never actually been a Tech-Admin for this site (I just knew one of the old ones very well) I tried, but failed, to look at things fairly from that persepctive. Walt touched numerous times on just how little we all know about what goes on in his and C22's world.

And isn't that what the meat of the problem has always been? Lack of communication. The ruling theme in all of the many different grievances that have been aired in this this thread is that people are upset because they don't understand why things happen, and are never given a reason or explaination. It's impossible to know what is going on if no one is addressing this issues. Walts rant, and specifically his reply about the EDD issue, would have had a very large and signifigant impact on this thread, had it been posted a day, maybe two, maybe even three days after the discussion began. This entire thing may have even been avoided completely if the explaination Walt offered in his second post was offered in the first place, in the EDD forum, instead of Catch posting an ambiguous poll with absolutely no explaination as to what was happening, and then very firmly stating that any and all comment and suggestion would be ignored.

The problem here isnt that anyone thinks that Walt and Brian do bad work. The work they specialize in is done very well, and I completely agree with Walt's statement that while the decisions they make aren't always popular, they tend to be for the best. They make the tough decisions that they, as the leaders of the site, think will be best, and they sacrifice being part of the "cool crowd" and, dare I say, the "bluelight elite", to try and improve the site.

Their intentions are noble. Their delivery is deplorable. It doesn't take a genius to realize how much a PR Admin would ease the tension around here. There is a second teir administration staff already in place that should be able to do this. Rather than be silent because they don't want what they say to be construed as "official", there needs to be someone who *can* speak freely, and "officially". Have a PR Admin, and keep them constantly briefed on whats happening and then have it be their respinsibility to make sure everyone else knows whats happening. There needs to be at least one person with access to the Senior Admins, that can make inquiries to them and recieve prompt answers,a nd then deliver information to the public at large. This will surely take most, if not all, of the heat off the Senior Admins heads.

We now officially know that at least part of the Senior administration doesn't care about a great many of the users on the board. By assigning a PR Admin to handle the dispersal of public information, they would never have to assoiciate with an end user ever again. They would only have to deal directly with one or two admins. Then, rather than treat the populous like children with "Because I said so, now leave me alone" answers, the users can be treated with respect like the adults that (most) of them are.

This is just a suggestion. One that I doubt will be acted upon due to just one voice in the crowd. If you like the idea, pass it along to a few other people, and have them pass it along. And then send a PM to Walt. And Catch-22. And xtcxtc, michael, thelovebandit, and blue lava. Let the people in charge know that this is something you want, and then cross your fingers and hope that they have the sense to do something.
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frizzantik said:
why do you keep coming to a site where you feel like you're getting fucked like a bitch?

if you protest a walmart while shopping there, it doesn't make much of a statement, does it?
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That's a pretty piss-poor analogy for my attitude towards BL. It's more like being a citizen of a country and feeling that the government is acting unjustly. You don't just up and move to another country, you complain until they change(by protesting or social disobedience etc.).
 
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country" jfk, 1961

?

alasdair
 
HarryAtPiekarnia said:
Either run BL like a democracy/community or run it like a business. I'm not too fussy which because in either scenario the views of the majority of posters will decide what is done.
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Harry! You're back with a valid account! after "sorry, but the user you made the bet with was Harry@Piekarnia and since he is currently banned I owe you nothing" - guess you're gonna give me my money over that whole US election bet, right?

ps - I love how this thread unjokingly started with "Here's an idea I want you all to have a look over while I go find some new prositutes". Is the whole thing perchance worth a read over???
 
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