Scottish Independence v. Further devolution, or just convoluted lies?

[Sammy G]

The implication is that the 'civic nationalism' on display in scotland is the same as hitler - that's not true; there are plenty of examples around the world where democratic self-determination has sprung from a nationalist-liberation base without it being the sort of fascist thinking of the nazis (which was much more a creature of nasty establishment thinking anyway - like they way the Mitfords or Edward VIII thought). If you use the category of nationalism you must be able to distinguish these very different types.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Has anybody attempted to characterise Scottish 'civic nationalism' as somehow Hitlerian? I certainly didn't. Nor did my pal Godwin, who's listening ever so intently.

Read the Billy Bragg link - he says it better than me.

I'd rather read my own gravestone than read anything written by Billy fucking Bragg, ta very much. :D

 

[Vurtual]

Good argument skills there (ad hominem to use forum latin). ok, i think he's a knob usually (and omnibot and harris for that matter) - but what are they saying is what matters.

And i thought you saying 'good aids' was you trying to conflate all nationalisms together, which isn't justified in the context described in the above quote (by bragg - you don't even need to click him)

 

[Sammy G]

There used to be a guy at college with an acoustic guitar who played every Billy Bragg song.

I was the guy at college with the acoustic guitar who played Jesus & Mary Chain songs.

These scars run deep and they last forever.

 

[Vurtual]

Fair dos - i'd feel similar. I've got some disdain for the omnibot too due to his nuclear conversion (while his other articles are still often excellent); and john harris and his smug hairdo gives me allergies. I've got to take what i can get in the guardian's output right now though - and those are some of only a few articles on independence that don't toe the establishment line (it seems most commenters btl agree - whatever that means). You could read Irvine welsh's great piece on indepenence for a (possibly) 'cooler' expression of similar stuff...

Irvine Welsh - Labour Pains, Labour of Love

 

[ColtDan]

Why Cameron's Scared Of Scottish Divorce: Russell Brand The Trews (E147)

 

[ponch]

At Glastonbury this year Billy Bragg was harping on about politics in the greenfields when someone from the crowd shouted "sing us a song billy for fuck sake!"

 

[spudgun]

At Glastonbury this year Billy Bragg was harping on about politics in the greenfields when someone from the crowd shouted "sing us a song billy for fuck sake!"

Fuck me, that's not the Billy I know.

 

[Eveleivibe]

At Glastonbury this year Billy Bragg was harping on about politics in the greenfields when someone from the crowd shouted "sing us a song billy for fuck sake!"

Hahahaha well they did go there for the music not a politics debate

Evey

 

[swedger77]

I hope to fuck Scotland votes YES.

Fuck Westminster. 78% of the cabinet are millionaires. Now thats fairly representative.

I'm actually astonished with the level of BBC scaremongering......its been epic.

Channel 4 news or news from foreign countries is the only source of balanced reporting. Fucking joke.

 

[421]

The latest Economist predicted doom and gloom for all of Europe if it happens. Pretty weird, usually they are quite level headed in their journalism.

Sure there might be problems at first but it's hard to believe they wouldn't be worked out in the long run.

 

[gannetsarewe]

The union is an inviolable fact of geography, shared customs and language - an ancient one at that - which was only disrupted by the invasion of a foreign empire.

I think it is stretching it a wee bit to say that Ireland was ever an empire, the term Scot and its variants was used on the Island of Britain from the Roman to early middle ages to refer to the Inhabitants of the Island of Ireland, the term Scotland literally meant "Land of the Irish", although early medieval writers claimed that Scotland was settled by the Irish, it is now suspected that it was chiefly a cultural movement of Irish learning, language and culture into the northern part of Britain, after the the collapse of the Roman Empire, this was mirrored in the South by the arrival of an Anglo Saxon 'civilisation'. Quite why the common Brittonic tongue collapsed in most of Scotland and England at this time is a mystery.
The history of these islands are more more complex than are dreamt in your philosophy, which appears to be, probably unbeknownst to you, to be that of a sneaking regarder for Empire, ah the great nation fantasy, when will ye put it aside.

 

[Vurtual]

I hope to fuck Scotland votes YES.

Fuck Westminster. 78% of the cabinet are millionaires. Now thats fairly representative.

I'm actually astonished with the level of BBC scaremongering......its been epic.

Channel 4 news or news from foreign countries is the only source of balanced reporting. Fucking joke.

I'm hoping the obviousness of the establishment and their media descending in the last week will help swing the yes vote.

The union are already making noises like they won't play ball: George robertson (new labour Nato arse face) has reportedly been asked to start planning how to scupper a yes vote with claims of voter intimidation and over-funding (i guess they might say all those individuals who did their own campaiging meant the yes campaign went over the funding limit (even though most of those people had nothing to do with the official campaign). The police federation put out a statement denying it was happening and effectively telling off the politicians/journalists - Link.

Also, camoron's quiet visit to shetland the other day now develops into a claim that shetland may 'consider its position' if they voted no and mainland voted yes - this is probably a bluff (the population apparently seemed yes-ish), but it's easier to stuff a ballot in the shetlands than urban scotland. Shetland just happens to have a suspected oil field near it...

...

@gannets' - i agree that much of the old idea of multiple migrations/invasions hasn't been bourne out by genetics or better archaeology generally (seem mostly just simplistic assumptions of past less sophisticated studies). What were once seen as invasions have later turned out to be cultural adoption on top of a small residue of physical migration - this is the case in various places (the 'aryan' invasion of northen india springs to mind aside from the usual anglo-saxon and celtic ones). This isn;t universal though - eg i believe the viking migrations/invasions in england were more substantial (though were still accompanied by the same cultural intermixing as the others it seems).

 

[rpm]

I think it is stretching it a wee bit to say that Ireland was ever an empire, the term Scot and its variants was used on the Island of Britain from the Roman to early middle ages to refer to the Inhabitants of the Island of Ireland, the term Scotland literally meant "Land of the Irish", although early medieval writers claimed that Scotland was settled by the Irish, it is now suspected that it was chiefly a cultural movement of Irish learning, language and culture into the northern part of Britain, after the the collapse of the Roman Empire, this was mirrored in the South by the arrival of an Anglo Saxon 'civilisation'. Quite why the common Brittonic tongue collapsed in most of Scotland and England at this time is a mystery.
The history of these islands are more more complex than are dreamt in your philosophy, which appears to be, probably unbeknownst to you, to be that of a sneaking regarder for Empire, ah the great nation fantasy, when will ye put it aside.

Don't forget that before Scotland (or England) were formed there were at least 3 cultures, Gaelic, Pictish and Brittonic. As you point out there wasn't an Irish invasion of a Brittonic nation, there was a section of the western Scotland and Ireland that spoke Gaelic. In truth the division of the countries by water did more to unite than divide them in a time when sea transport was quicker than land. This was a group of islands - the Britain and Island - (with two large ones and a number of small ones) with a number of changing tribes, and no common national identity (for example at the south their was and always has been a large affinity with the French rather than the north).

Anyway, as a yes voter who has recently switched into full on keyboard warrior mode, I can't wait for the neverendum to be over with. Repeating the same arguments and trying to quantify the same unknowns is both tiring and boring.

 

[Shambles]

Why should they be independent ? Why should they be different to the rest of us? What's wrong with being part of the UK? Surely it's better to be united? I feel it would be a shame to be all separate. Only advantage is they wouldn't be under Tory government.

Which is a pretty big advantage to be fair...

That aside...

"Why should they be independant?" - The fact you're referring to a nation as "they" and suggesting "they" shouldn't have a say in the matter answers your own question.

"Why should they be different to the rest of us?" - Skipping over the previous, perhaps cos "they" are different from the rest of "us"? The UK is a construction of the (very) late mediaeaval period. The British Isles are a more concrete basis to... well... base stuff on. I believe that all of the British Isles have enough in common culurally and historically for us to probably be best off muddling along together. That's not to suggest there are no differences though. Go back a couple hundred years and folks from these Isles though the next village up the road consisted of "funny foreigners" who ate babies and stuff. There are differences, they're just not very big or very real ones in the grand scheme is all.

"What's wrong with being part of the UK?" - Fuckloads. Mainly the fact that the UK is a hangover from Imperial times and could do with a bit of sorting out and modernising.

"Surely it's better to be united?" - Yes, I do believe it is. But not in the way it has been these last couple cenruries. I wouldn't blame my far-northern bredrin for wanting to jump ship cos lawdy knows the rest of us would if we could. We can't though. But what can be done is to shake the shit out of the current system and see what falls out.

Personally, I'd hate to see even the sweatiest of socks go bye-bye from the nation I have no choice but to call my own. Wouldn't blame 'em for doing so either and would keep a close eye out for a place potentially worth moving to given half the chance. I'd much rather see the momentum that is so clearly in place up there extend to the rest of the UK and serve a wider purpose though.

 

[Shambles]

They voted for New Labour in droves!

Around a third of 'em voted for Maggie too...

By the way if you want to know what's going on in scotland, don't read the guardian, independent, or any 'proper' media - the lies and obfuscations being peddled by all the media is more blatant than ever (with BBC's nick robinson taking the cake). There are no daily newspapers in scotland that are for Yes (just one weekly). The bbc is supposed to be impartial, but isw provably biased. Go to the Radical Independence Campaign-type websites to see the difference in reporting.

Cos the Radical Independence Campaign is as impartial as they come surely...

I tend to agree with your broad political views but you are becoming a bit of a self-parody at this point. If you can't see the inherent ridiculousness of the above quote please tell me why not.

Right on. Scotland would be 14th richest gdp (not per capita) if they went independent now i read, with only 5 million people. They've got shitloads of oil, including loads on the west coast that michael heseltine kept secret for 30 years because they didn't want oil rigs where they had to drive their nukes back and forth (and they didn't want the scots knowing how rich they are). I don't like oil particularly, but even without it they've got some huge percentage of europe's renewable energy too.

Are you now in favour of exploting oil reserves as a sustainable economy? We all know what happens to small nations with a lotta oil...

They burn out quickly cos are living on false economy. If they don't manage to burn themselves out before bigger nations wiv bigger weapons come "manage" said oil reserves for 'em anyway.

Am genuinely on the fence when it comes to Scottish Independence. Not even in a head/heart way cos both say both. This is a poor, poor argument either way though.

 

[Ismene]

The first law passed will be the "devils in skirts" law - every man must wear the kilt with nothing underneath.

 

[kingme]

apparently the polls open in half hour.

im actually curious how this all turns out. form an outsider's perspective of course, it is going to be interesting to see how the UK and Europe handle things.

also, how will this change the drug scene there?

 

[gannetsarewe]

More expensive drugs surely ,same as Here.

 

[Vurtual]

Cos the Radical Independence Campaign is as impartial as they come surely...

I tend to agree with your broad political views but you are becoming a bit of a self-parody at this point. If you can't see the inherent ridiculousness of the above quote please tell me why not...

Well i'm calling it as i see it. Yes the RIC is biased in itself (and i agree with them), but places like that are where real information has been passed around in this campaign - the interconnected nature of the various angles of social media has kept the alternative news reporting honest. The proof is in the pudding. When those sites are putting forth their own views it's pretty clear; when they're are giving checkable evidence of the bias i can see with my own eyes in the mainstream media that is also clear. Given that what i said about the papers is true (ie there's one weekly (sunday herald) against ALL other printed media), and given that the BBC has been provably caught with its pants down multiple times, there's not much option but to supplement news sources with alternative ones - and in this campaign they've really left the MSM in the dust for reporting. This isn't bias on my part - it's plain to see (if you look outside the media bubble).

Oil is not the issue for me, but it can answer in the medium term some of the fears of people who can't imagine a society based on something other than capitalism - and it answers them quite well. The biggest oil reserve in europe; but also when that runs out, the biggest renewable resources in europe. There's only so much strong-arming that can be done by other western countries after oil before their people start wanting a bit of democracy too (though they'd no doubt use other means) - not as simple as bombing the middle east. Oil economies are unsustainable, but while they're there, you can use them in good ways like norway, or not (like thatch using it to pay for her dismantling of uk industry/union power)

Scotland voted for maggie quite a bit the first time - then they were betrayed on their devolution promise, shafted by thatcherism and tested the poll tax on them - those scars run deep.

Did you read the irvine welsh link above? i thought that was pretty persuasive; and the wee blue book (but i didn't need persuading really).

 

[Sammy G]

I think it is stretching it a wee bit to say that Ireland was ever an empire, the term Scot and its variants was used on the Island of Britain from the Roman to early middle ages to refer to the Inhabitants of the Island of Ireland, the term Scotland literally meant "Land of the Irish", although early medieval writers claimed that Scotland was settled by the Irish, it is now suspected that it was chiefly a cultural movement of Irish learning, language and culture into the northern part of Britain, after the the collapse of the Roman Empire, this was mirrored in the South by the arrival of an Anglo Saxon 'civilisation'. Quite why the common Brittonic tongue collapsed in most of Scotland and England at this time is a mystery.

Thanks for telling me a lot of things I already knew, but the fact remains that despite the disparity of the tribes which inhabited ancient Britain and Ireland, there was more cultural common ground between the various ethnic / tribal groups than there were marked differences, language aside. In exactly the same fashion as today.

The history of these islands are more more complex than are dreamt in your philosophy, which appears to be, probably unbeknownst to you, to be that of a sneaking regarder for Empire, ah the great nation fantasy, when will ye put it aside.

Shame you had to sign off with that attempt at an insult which, for the record, is wildly off the mark. Comically so, given my decidedly non-British ancestry.

Though if it keeps you warm at night (along with those warm and fuzzy dreams of Dál Riata) then more power to you.