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Romany & gypsy are we tolerant in Europe ?

Sammy G said:
You're not wrong. :\
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"Pikey" in one thread laughed by sam, "Gyppo" in another lambasted by sam.

Anyway from the horses mouth "Mr Cameron", he wants skilled immigrants coming into the UK, people who contribute to the economy and society otherwise.. "whats the point"? People who further add to the debt? I doubt hes exactly all "for" it, is he.

Travelers in the UK shun outsiders more than outsiders shun them, how frowned upon it is for an "outsider" to marry into the traveler community they basically abandon them, the majority are completely against integration , whether that be actually settling.. and paying taxes I am not sure. Travelers have a bad stigma about them in the UK and its not hard to see why, they are almost the height of jealousy/hatred of normal people in the UK, I think saying all travelers are hard working, non-thieving law abiding citizens would be a crime itself but who am I to judge.

I buy drugs, therefore attribute to the downfall of my local community/economy because the 2 are directly linked.
 
I look at postmodern western culture and sometimes want to integrate out of it.
I can understand why people would be reluctant to try and take part in a culture (or cultures) that actively persecute them (such as the Molotov cocktail anecdote on page 1; charming).
Fuck that, you can have your culture, I wouldn't want any part of it, if that's ok.

^By the way, I can think of many, many people employed by the fact that you (and me, and other people) create such a lucrative market for drugs.
Socially destructive? Hard to deny - but not universal.
Economically destructive? It depends who you ask. Cops, customs officers and dealers are all gainfully employed by the drug market. Not all drug money stays 'dirty'; plenty of it finds its way back into the so-called legit economy...
 
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Mendo - Show me exactly where I laughed at the word 'pikey'. Or where I lambasted people for use of the word 'gyppo', for that matter.

Was I supposed to ignore the fact that a friend got beaten up and instead criticise his use of the term 'pikey', or otherwise disqualify myself from addressing other people's outright bigotry?

Grow up, will you?
 
Afraid I don't want to, nor need to...maybe acceptance of the world would have been less controversial. I dont know, maybe im just being a wanker, just came across as a little hypocritical from reading the other post a few minutes ago. Nitpicking comes to mind, which I wont do more of, though more wildy off topic again.. its never there fault is it?
 
Where's the fault?
You mean "their" fault? Who?

This is an interesting thread but it sure did stir up some weird fucking levels of bigotry.
Can't we just hate everyone equally?
 
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spacejunk said:
Where's the fault?
You mean "their" fault? Who?

This is an interesting thread but it sure did stir up some weird fucking levels of bigotry.
Can't we just hate everyone equally?
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Aye you probably right, grammatical mistakes do matter. Sorry its never their fault, they can't do wrong. Whos being a bigot? Best coke I ever bought was off some gypsys, and I didnt get robbed. See, we can all hate each other equally now. :|
 
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It wasn't specifically calling anyone a bigot, mendo.
Upon re-reading it, I can see how it comes across as being directed at you, but I'm not being very articulate with this haze of bhang lassi ive wandered into.
 
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sam, i think the point is - we have enough of 'our own' feckless, who we are required to make provision for. adding to that number voluntarily is surely not advisable. though if the press are to be believed this morning, low skilled jobs (i.e those traditionally for our working classes) are being advertised by unscrupulous british companies IN romania. remember with the poles, figures now show 700,000 came with no job offer, and it has to be assumed many of them found work. it is this factor i disagree with - in the current financial hard tines, we should be legislating for employers to positively discriminate in favour of british citizens and at the same time punishing those who would turn down such work over triviality
 
I just don't fancy building another 3 million houses on the greenbelt and having another 6 million cars on the road.
 
Overpopulation is a global problem.
This kind of "debate" is happening across the world, in varying forms.
Yes, makind is growing/living/consuming resources at an unsustainable rate.
Scapegoating people because of a false sense of entitlement caused by the imaginary lines drawn between nations is not going to improve the situation.
The corporate media and political establishment will do all they can to keep people from realising it, but the truth is, each and every human being is in this together.
No blinkers to the rest of the world are going to work any more. As technology breaks open the mental shackles created by nation states to curtail free movement of humans, people will hopefully stop seeing "us" and "them", the "other".
We live in a world of many different cultures, and the empires and ethnic/sectarian walls that divide us are crumbling.
Like it or not, we all have to live with the resulting outcomes of migration.
I guess the points I was trying to make regarding British colonialism are that you can't have it both ways - which is the ability to travel the world without a second thought - to holiday, to emigrate - whatever, at the same time as saying certain people are unwelcome back home.
Human survival in some parts of the world is becoming diffficult, and the pressures on infrastructure, access to housing, employment, clean drinking water or whatever the case may be - is not unique or restricted to any country or region.

I'm not in favour of overdeveloping or overpopulating areas that can't cope with it, but in the case of old colonial powers, isnt this just the postcolonial chickens coming home to roost?
If you (collectively; historically) treat the world as your property to be rapaciously cut-up, what's the big surprise when the wheel turns the other way, and the impoverished start turning up in the mother country looking for greener pastures?
Thanks to technology, there are unprecedented challenges to people finding traditional forms of work, not to mention the looming environmental catastrophes that- again - affect us all.
It's not immigrants "taking our jobs" - in many cases it is technology (and i include offshore, cheap labour outsourcing in this) making traditional forms of labour redundant.
 
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Started a healthy debate, kind sir.
Sorry about the off-topic rant - this thread is invested with digressions.
It's a thing of beauty.
 
loumacari said:
being forced to live in a ghetto and denied education means that you don't have the tools to operate within traditional society, thus you have to look for alternative ways of surviving like stealing, begging etc
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Denied education? Are you for real? In elementary school we had gypsies in our class, people from the school used to go get them at the camp site as their parents didn't want them in school but wanted to make them work. The government not only tries to get gypsie children in school, they give the parents cash handouts in exchange for school enrolment.

Inform yourself before you open that trap of yours.

Over here they even built an apartment block for them, the gypsies destroyed the walls to steal the plumbing to sell the pipes as scrap metal, then they moved back to their camp.

They are not excluded from society, the government spent million of euros trying to integrate them, it's a lost cause
 
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Forced integration is almost always a lost cause.
It's like fighting wars for peace - you don't "win hearts and minds" - you just show people the failings of (even the best intentioned) bureaucracy, create resentment and expose the kids you mention to the sorts of attitudes that are prevalent in a wider society they most likely have little contact with.
No easy answers here, but again - look at the colonial experience of forcing people into an Anglo-Christian "education". Not everybody can just fit into the dominant culture with such ease.

Not everyone is as happy to let go of countless generations of tradition as we might think.

We all have our prejudices - I wish football fans wouldn't descend upon the stadium near my house and drunkenly piss behind my letterbox after the game - but I don't try to re-educate the fuckers, I just accept that they do their thing, I do mine.
 
spacejunk said:
Forced integration is almost always a lost cause.
It's like fighting wars for peace - you don't "win hearts and minds" - you just show people the failings of (even the best intentioned) bureaucracy, create resentment and expose the kids you mention to the sorts of attitudes that are prevalent in a wider society they most likely have little contact with.
No easy answers here, but again - look at the colonial experience of forcing people into an Anglo-Christian "education". Not everybody can just fit into the dominant culture with such ease.

Not everyone is as happy to let go of countless generations of tradition as we might think.

We all have our prejudices - I wish football fans wouldn't descend upon the stadium near my house and drunkenly piss behind my letterbox after the game - but I don't try to re-educate the fuckers, I just accept that they do their thing, I do mine.
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How would you tackle the issue of Aborigines in your own country?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/28/australia-boom-aboriginal-story-despair
 
^ again; very, very complicated.
The resentment of generations of institutionalised racism, a history of white violence, high rates of indigenous incarceration, 3rd world health stats in some communities (high infant mortality figures, vastly lower life expectancy than non-indigenous australians), state paternalism, forced adoptions and social degradation is too much to be overcome in a short period of time (say, an electoral cycle).

In general, I'd say a convergence of cultures and mutual recognition leading towards respect needs to take place.
Obviously in Australia, the (descendants of) the people who committed the 200 odd years of injustices, the dispossession of land and the deliberate destruction of cultures and languages have a lot of work to do in gaining anyone's respect - but the issues in both Australia and the UK have a great number of similarities.
Put simply, integration or assimilation are too simplistic to work in reality, and attempts at forcing them upon people usually (in my experience at least) makes things worse.
Harmonious coexistence of cultures is the only realistic goal to pursue in my opinion.
Without having some intentions of allowing people to be who they want to be (what fun is homogenised culture anyway?) you're doomed to fail. That's my take anyway.
 
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