I don't know, I just like to argue. I really am more open to gay culture than this debate makes me seem, as in fact I really on your side...I just have heard the point brought to light many times and it's always a good debate. I don't know, really...I'm just barely over the fence tho.
Pride Parade!
- Thread starter femmme fatal
- Start date
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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maybe you can show more of your support for gay culture by not using derogitory terms like fags or equating all homosexuals to "flamming" queers. I am non sexual, meaning i find sex with men or women repulsive. yet i find gay cummunities wonderful to live in. low crime better community involvment. And in these communities i have met every type of homosexual you can imagine. the reason why most peopel assume that all gay men are "flamming" is because you cannot tell the straight acting one are gay. i met beachboyty this last weekend at edc and one would never eb able to tell he was gay absed on his mannerisms. You can only tell when hes scopin guys 
Someone asked why we have a Pride Day, lets set aside the fact that there are parades or a national day of celebration for every possible ethnic group, nationality, religious holiday, Yadda-yadda, ad infinitum, hell African-Americans have a whole month. Pride Day is a way for us to affirm to ourselves and the world that we will not go back into the dark where so many before us had to hide who they were from the rest of the world for fear of persecution. During WWII, the Nazi's exterminated gays, thats where the pink/rainbow triangle symbol comes from. In the former USSR gays were loaded up and shipped off to Gulags. Hate crimes against gays STILL happen everyday right here in the good ole USA. It's a crying fucking shame when some little girl disappears, or is found dead in her rich parents home ( and it IS REALLY, just giving an analogy everyone can understand, so don't ass rape please), but when a gay teenager is found tied to a split rail fence and beaten to death with a ball bat, thats just another dead fag. Good ridance right? But hey, we "fuckin' people"( I believe thats how it was put a couple of pages back )don't have anything to say, or be proud of. If we DON'T have a parade, a celebration of how far we have come since we clawed and scratched our way out of the dark, everyone that ever died because they were a homosexual at the hands of the Nazi's, Russian's, KKK, or just some stupid- assed, ignorant, redneck hater, died for SQUAT. We're fight for our rights and sometimes our lives and the enemy is HATE and IGNORANCE, NOT straight people. But, it seems we're the only side that has taken casualties. Most of the effort expended is to simply be recognized as having a right to live our lives as WE see fit. Straights don't have to hide who they are, 99% of their lives they're free to discuss with whom ever they see fit. Gays don't have that luxury, because it can have consequences. Hopefully some day we won't have to have Pride Day (at least for the purpose of protesting discrimination )any more and we can just have Diversity Day, a day when we can celebrate EVERYONE coming together in mutual acceptance. Well, we can all dream, can't we.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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memex sorry to lump you into a category but i felt {i meaning opinion} as though you were being derogitory. but.....
Noodle
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from www.yourdictionary.com
Main entry: 1 fag
verb
Etymology: obsolete fag to droop, perhaps from fag ( fag end )
...
2: to act as a fag especially in an English public school
....
Main entry: 2 fag
noun
2: an English public-school boy who acts as a servant to an older schoolmate
....
Main entry: 4 fag
noun
Etymology: probably by shortening
usually desparaging: FAGGOT
....
[ 08 July 2002: Message edited by: Noodle ]
Main entry: 1 fag
verb
Etymology: obsolete fag to droop, perhaps from fag ( fag end )
...
2: to act as a fag especially in an English public school
....
Main entry: 2 fag
noun
2: an English public-school boy who acts as a servant to an older schoolmate
....
Main entry: 4 fag
noun
Etymology: probably by shortening
usually desparaging: FAGGOT
....
[ 08 July 2002: Message edited by: Noodle ]
Spencer
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Lots of really good points and arguements in this thread. I have to say that xMemnonx did a great job of conveying his POV, as did the "Pride Pack".
Now, just to throw out some issues from a devils advocate stance.
1) Should Anti-Gay, homophobic groups be allowed to march every year?
2) When will White Male America get to march? Should they be allowed? Talk about a group of people whom life is becoming increasingly difficult for.
3) if a "straight" parade contained sexually lewd or explicit acts, in *most* area's (the all important "most" qualifier...heaven forbid I use the word "all") it would be shut down very quickly and not be allowed to continue the following year. Is it fair that "pride parades" are allowed more leeway in these situations?
4) A main point in gay rights activism is to be treated fair and equally. Why then, do "gays" wish to be so flamboyant and outspoken? Why do they have "pride parades" (an activity that would be criticized and protested to no end were "straight america" to attempt the same thing)? If I (a straight "white" male) were to strut around and act in a way that was against "the status quo" I would be labeled and treated differently. Why then, do flamboyant homosexuals feels it is unfair that they are labeled and treated unfairly as well?
5) Regardless of what's right and whats wrong, there are just certain things that *just are* in this world. I'm not gonna walk by myself through a "ghetto" in Los Angeles. If I do, I'm not going to be surprised if I get taunted, harrased, or if I get the living shit beat out of me. Why? Because that's just the way things are. No, it's not "right". It sucks. But just because it's not right, doesn't mean I'm going to go on an evening stroll through Compton. So, while sacrifices must be made in the struggle for equal rights,does that mean "we" should pity people who make themselves martyrs for there cause?
6) Are you offended by "slurs" (i.e fag, dyke, nig ger, kike, cracker, bitch)? If yes, do you use "cuss words" (shit, fuck, cunt, asshole, etc...) in public? Are you "politically correct"? Have you ever stopped to think about how the "slang" you use on a daily basis might offend someone else, even if you think it's a "harmless" word or phrase?
7)In this day and age, "The White Man" is being blamed for, well, just about every groups oppression or hardship. Because of this, more and more people/groups are altering there behaviors/views/policies. If "the white man" is now a group that is becoming more and more discriminated against, and gay rights (or any "rights" group for that matter) want *fair and equal* treatment, then wouldn't they, therefore, be welcoming continued discrimination?
How comfortable am I? I have gay friends. I have no problem with the homosexual lifestyle. However, I am not comfortable witnessing *public* displays of affection, not just with homosexuals, but with straight people as well. I don't cringe when I see two men holding hands on the street, but I would be equally annoyed/appalled/offended if I saw a couple fucking in a park, whether they were gay or straight.
I am all for the *fair and equal* treatment of homosexuals, people of color, women, goats, cheese, air in a can, and politicians. By this, I mean that I have no problem with people that are different from me,but I do not believe they should be able to do things that "the white folk" wouldnot be able to do as well.
Finally, because some people just wont understand the term "Devil's Advocate", let me just say that *my* personal beliefs are not necisarily reflected in the situations I posed above. Some are, but some are just me looking at situations from varying point's of view. Are *my* opinions perfect? Nope. Are some of my beliefs hypocritical and/or self serving? Yup.
But so are yours.
*edited for spelling, grammer, my faulty spacebar, and a rather embarrassing mistake where I typed that "The White Man" *should* get away with things that other people can't.*
[ 08 July 2002: Message edited by: Spencer ]
Now, just to throw out some issues from a devils advocate stance.
1) Should Anti-Gay, homophobic groups be allowed to march every year?
2) When will White Male America get to march? Should they be allowed? Talk about a group of people whom life is becoming increasingly difficult for.
3) if a "straight" parade contained sexually lewd or explicit acts, in *most* area's (the all important "most" qualifier...heaven forbid I use the word "all") it would be shut down very quickly and not be allowed to continue the following year. Is it fair that "pride parades" are allowed more leeway in these situations?
4) A main point in gay rights activism is to be treated fair and equally. Why then, do "gays" wish to be so flamboyant and outspoken? Why do they have "pride parades" (an activity that would be criticized and protested to no end were "straight america" to attempt the same thing)? If I (a straight "white" male) were to strut around and act in a way that was against "the status quo" I would be labeled and treated differently. Why then, do flamboyant homosexuals feels it is unfair that they are labeled and treated unfairly as well?
5) Regardless of what's right and whats wrong, there are just certain things that *just are* in this world. I'm not gonna walk by myself through a "ghetto" in Los Angeles. If I do, I'm not going to be surprised if I get taunted, harrased, or if I get the living shit beat out of me. Why? Because that's just the way things are. No, it's not "right". It sucks. But just because it's not right, doesn't mean I'm going to go on an evening stroll through Compton. So, while sacrifices must be made in the struggle for equal rights,does that mean "we" should pity people who make themselves martyrs for there cause?
6) Are you offended by "slurs" (i.e fag, dyke, nig ger, kike, cracker, bitch)? If yes, do you use "cuss words" (shit, fuck, cunt, asshole, etc...) in public? Are you "politically correct"? Have you ever stopped to think about how the "slang" you use on a daily basis might offend someone else, even if you think it's a "harmless" word or phrase?
7)In this day and age, "The White Man" is being blamed for, well, just about every groups oppression or hardship. Because of this, more and more people/groups are altering there behaviors/views/policies. If "the white man" is now a group that is becoming more and more discriminated against, and gay rights (or any "rights" group for that matter) want *fair and equal* treatment, then wouldn't they, therefore, be welcoming continued discrimination?
How comfortable am I? I have gay friends. I have no problem with the homosexual lifestyle. However, I am not comfortable witnessing *public* displays of affection, not just with homosexuals, but with straight people as well. I don't cringe when I see two men holding hands on the street, but I would be equally annoyed/appalled/offended if I saw a couple fucking in a park, whether they were gay or straight.
I am all for the *fair and equal* treatment of homosexuals, people of color, women, goats, cheese, air in a can, and politicians. By this, I mean that I have no problem with people that are different from me,but I do not believe they should be able to do things that "the white folk" wouldnot be able to do as well.
Finally, because some people just wont understand the term "Devil's Advocate", let me just say that *my* personal beliefs are not necisarily reflected in the situations I posed above. Some are, but some are just me looking at situations from varying point's of view. Are *my* opinions perfect? Nope. Are some of my beliefs hypocritical and/or self serving? Yup.
But so are yours.
*edited for spelling, grammer, my faulty spacebar, and a rather embarrassing mistake where I typed that "The White Man" *should* get away with things that other people can't.*
[ 08 July 2002: Message edited by: Spencer ]
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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alright spencer you white devil i will reply to this because i think your points are valid but i think i need some time to give it the respect such questions deserve. look for a post form me sometime tonight.
-phil-
i will reply to this because i think your points are valid but i think i need some time to give it the respect such questions deserve. look for a post form me sometime tonight.-phil-
Cyc
Bluelighter
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Some people here talk like their sexuality is their one and only defining attribute.
I'm disappointed. The whole thesis of my original argument has been lost sight of in favor of a juvenile pushing match.
Gay is what you are, among many things, not who you are. Race and sexuality are two things that should be taken for granted. I don't want to be aware of what gender you prefer fucking or what colour your skin is.
The more you draw attention to these unimportant aspects of yourself, the more people will see you only for those.
I'm disappointed. The whole thesis of my original argument has been lost sight of in favor of a juvenile pushing match.
Gay is what you are, among many things, not who you are. Race and sexuality are two things that should be taken for granted. I don't want to be aware of what gender you prefer fucking or what colour your skin is.
The more you draw attention to these unimportant aspects of yourself, the more people will see you only for those.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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while i gree that this is true for the day to day activities i also understand why one day a year its exceptable to flaunt your sexuality to become part of a culture that is use to fear and hiding. while in a daily life saying yo im gay. hey did you know i was gay isnt a good thing. I can also agree with the need to feel connected to not feel ashamed. while it is inherient with straight people what there sexuality is they dont need that sort of community. But when your gay and it still isnt a very exceptable thing {And belive it or not sexuality is important} it is improtant to surroudn yourself ina loving caring comunity.
-phil-
-phil-
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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Noodle
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Wow Spencer, that is probably the most thoughtful and thought provoking post I have seen you contribute to this site.
Kyk has also made some interesting points, although I still feel that the peaceful gatherings of minority groups is still important, even if only as a show of our numbers publicaly.
I do agree that my sexual orientation is a very small part of who I am, but it is still a very significant problem for many of the people that I have to interact with on a daily basis. That I do not understand, as I am hardly as vocal about it in public as I am here.
~much respect~
Kyk has also made some interesting points, although I still feel that the peaceful gatherings of minority groups is still important, even if only as a show of our numbers publicaly.
I do agree that my sexual orientation is a very small part of who I am, but it is still a very significant problem for many of the people that I have to interact with on a daily basis. That I do not understand, as I am hardly as vocal about it in public as I am here.
~much respect~
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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^^^^^^^^^didnt even know noods was sorta gay until that ruofa thread, and i met him once.
-phil-
-phil-
interesting posts. i particularly think phil does a brilliant job, but that's because i agree with him. but, hey, spencer raised some interesting issues and did it in a respectful way.
i guess what i'm interested in is this: why are straight people worried about "flamboyant gays" marching in a pride parade once a year? is this just arguing for arguing's sake, as someone admitted above (which is FINE), or is this something that truly offends you?
the reason i ask that is that the other 364 days a year, gays and lesbians have YOUR sexuality in THEIR face.
before you flame me, think about it. everytime you guys kiss your girls in public (and vice versa), that's sexuality. everytime you talk about the "bitch" you fucked last night, that is sexuality.
it doesn't just take a parade to show sexuality, you know. we all show it every day in some way. it's just that, 99% of the time, gays and lesbians have to repress theirs (unless they live in san francisco or west hollywood or provincetown, etc.).
so give us that ONE day, can't you?
but, hey, spencer raised some interesting issues and did it in a respectful way.i guess what i'm interested in is this: why are straight people worried about "flamboyant gays" marching in a pride parade once a year? is this just arguing for arguing's sake, as someone admitted above (which is FINE), or is this something that truly offends you?
the reason i ask that is that the other 364 days a year, gays and lesbians have YOUR sexuality in THEIR face.
before you flame me, think about it. everytime you guys kiss your girls in public (and vice versa), that's sexuality. everytime you talk about the "bitch" you fucked last night, that is sexuality.
it doesn't just take a parade to show sexuality, you know. we all show it every day in some way. it's just that, 99% of the time, gays and lesbians have to repress theirs (unless they live in san francisco or west hollywood or provincetown, etc.).
so give us that ONE day, can't you?
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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