People That Shaped The Furture Of Music

now if you wanted to compare tool to pink floyd....or if you wanted to compare biggie to pac...or somethign like that...that is perfectly reasonable.....but i am sorry to compare tupac to tool or pink floyd on either side of an opinion is horrribly stupid
 
well not really...lets do it like this

hypathettically...you are for floyd
hypathetically i am for pac

lets face the facts here about the two night and day cultures and audiences

you(hypothetically beign the floyd voter here) (hypathetically) <-------acid taking hippie who like to trip out on the sound scapes of pink floyd

me(hypathetically the pac voter)(hypathetically)lives in poverty stricken areas ...sees and lives all the shit tupac is talking about


now you tell me that you can possible get an accuate wiegihing in of who had more impact out of that and i will leave you alone
 
im not trying to down either of you or anyone else for liking on or the other here....im simply saying you cannot compare apples to oranges...you cannot put a square in a rounf hole


i think tupac and pink floyd BOTH deserve to be givin recognition for shaping music

lol...on a lighter note i think i need to slow down typing and make less typos:D
 
But you are thinking the impact on their musical generas and i'm saying the impact they had on music as a whole.
 
I used Pink Floyd mainly for the Wall as a concept album. Each song is about something in particular, but upon listening to it, there is a greater realization of the state of affairs he speaks of, the overall emotion. The album itself--as a whole, not just singles put together on an album, it a work in itself.. paints a vivid picture that stimulates more of your mind than just politics, culture, intricacies of day by day life.

Rock, classical even more so, jazz, and various other forms have had musicians that can create a piece not to only make you feel, not only think, but to have this great realization of life. Almost a spiritual moment if you will. (and DMX having a gospel rap to God isn't what i'm talking about here). That is something i grasp out of Pink Floyd, Tool, Morrison and Lennon. But hell even these artists pale in comparrison when you start bringing up some of the greats that put together some of the world's most powerful orchestrated pieces/concerts.

When i think of concept album in terms of hip hop, i tend to think of basic innovations in production and beat making.

I love Pac's music don't get me wrong. I guess what i'm getting at.. name me some hip hop that would become a good audible aid for a psychedelic trip. Not just in stirring up the senses, but as a spiritual, mental, and emotional stimulation as well.

As good as Pac is, as influential as his death is, as much as i personally like his music, I think alot of it is hype. Hip Hop has a social stigma where it's cool to give props to people who have been shot. To advertise that you loved someone gunned down. That person gunned down is forever a hero of gansta america. ANd that's on top of the normal youthful immortality normally attributed to musicians who die young (Cobain, Morrison, Hendrix, etc..) I'd go as far to guraantee there's plenty of rappers who call out Pac's name, rap/hip hop fans who swear they were down since day one--and only give a shit b/c of what he now represents and the hype that his death stirred up..and the type of death that it was in comparrison to the culture he was in and representing.

He was a poet, a good rapper who made pop songs.. and made equally meaningful songs not so pop friendly. He was great at rhyming, especially for the time period as well. But i think he's over hyped.

Like i said before though, I think Rap/hip-hop has alot of potential it hasn't even bothered touching.. or even realizing for that matter, b/c of the constraints the culture places upon it. When i listen to international hip hop that doesn't have to adhere to the same social constraints.. or underground hip hop that just doesn't care.. i see where growth, creativity, imagination, and innovation are all there to take it to the next level, i just don't think it has been done yet.

But keep in mind, while i compare this to rock. Rock started in the 40s/50s. What was the 50s rock era like? A lot of Motown, Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, alot of pop songs full of meaningless tripe. Rock started out as a party phase and elevated and expanded from that point to be more than just party and dance music.

Hip hop itself is going through an evolution of its own. But definately under a different climate. And it isn't as diverse racially within america (though it is outside of america). These last 20 years are just the begining, if its truly here to stay (which i believe it is). While today.. rock has been around for about 70. Alot can change in 50 more years.

But back to Tool vs.. <insert rapper>

Here's a explination of Forty-six and Two by Tool


While it is perhaps one of the most concise and punchy tracks on the album, it is also one of the most densely layered, making reference to several schools of thought on life, consciousness, humanity, change and personal evolution.The basic premise is of positive change or personal transformation.

All the usual themes of self analysis and discovery are here; in fact, Forty Six & 2 really marks a point that begins quite a thematic and positive journey that continues into the bands next album, Lateralus.To allow easy navigation through the themes in the song, it is best to briefly explain some the concepts that it makes reference to, and the additional concept of temporary belief systems.In their 1994 newsletter, the band recommended
a book by Bob Frissell entitled ‘Nothing In This Book Is True, But Its Exactly How Things Are’, which explains, the basic concepts behind sacred geometry including the Golden Ratio, Phi.

Beyond the ratio (referred to by some as the Flower of Life), Frissell explains that in addition to our individual consciousness, we have a collective, human consciousness – proposing
that as well as individuals, we are a part of, and intrinsically connected to the greater human organism and beyond that, all living things. The idea of collective consciousness isn’t new, but Frissell’s proposal of how we might realise it is the key to the title, and psychologist Carl Jung’s exploration of it leads us to the next branch of meaning and explains the references to ‘my shadow’.

In his book, Frissell proposes that humans must evolve to take advantage of their collective consciousness. An integral part of that evolution is the addition of two new chromosomes to our genetic construct. Modern humans make use of 22 normal chromosomal pairs, with 2 sex chromosomes
(44 & 2), so the next evolutionary jump ought to take us to 46 & 2. Don’t be concerned if you find yourself feeling sceptical, it took me a long time to accept this as the explanation for such an intelligent band’s song. In fact, I rejected it flatly until introduced to the notion of temporary belief systems, which I’ll explain shortly; but first it is best to deal with the Jungian concepts in the song.Carl Jung began his career in psychology as an understudy to Freud, but who took a much more interesting path of research into the origins and mysteries of self through studies of various cultures, lucid dreaming and personal exploration.

The Jungian concepts of Anima and Shadow
are helpful in understanding Forty-Six and 2 (and much of Tool’s other work).Anima/Animus (pronounced On-ee-mah)In Jungian psychology, the anima refers to personality traits regarded as feminine that are often repressed into the unconscious
of males, while the animus refers to traits regarded as masculine that are often repressed into the unconsciousness of females. Although suppressed from conscious
awareness, the anima/animus influences our behaviour in powerful ways. In most individuals, it is projected onto people of the opposite sex and accounts for the experience of falling in love with someone we hardly know. As the unconscious pole of the self, the counter-ego represented by the anima/animus can also be a guide to one’s own unconscious realm. It is often experienced as the guiding female (if you’re male) or male (if you’re female) presence in dreams.

The ShadowIn Carl Jung’s personality theory, the ego represents the individual’s sense of personal
self. The sense of personal identity is purchased, however, at the expense of certain tendencies that are rejected as ‘not-self’. According to Jung, these rejected traits come together as a kind of unconscious ‘counter-ego’ which he termed the shadow. We may become unduly anxious or irritated when in an environment or around a person that in some way reminds us of repressed aspects of our self. If a person has rejected his or her own sex drive, for example, that person may feel irrational fear or anger around an overtly sexual individual. The shadow may appear as a person in one’s dreams, usually as an individual of the same sex. Of all the archetypes, the shadow is the most powerful and potentially the most dangerous. It represents everything about ourselves that we fear and despise.Let’s return to Frissell’s book, and chromosomal theory (which, it should be noted, is expanded from Drunvalo Melchizadek’s sacred geometry theories). If you were sceptical about the talk of human evolution through pronounced genetic change, then exhale now. Basic research into chromosomal
development shows that more doesn’t equate to better, or more highly evolved – some primates already have 46 & 2 chromosomes, rabbits have almost 100. Frissell’s theory is fundamentally flawed.So why make use of it? Although Frissell’s ideas about human development are wrong, exploring them for a little while as though they aren’t gives us an opportunity to see things differently, to consider things from a new angle, and perhaps learn something we would otherwise miss, and in that way his ideas are still valuable. In the song, 46 & 2 provides a tight metaphor for discovery, progression and evolution. The notion of discovery though temporary belief systems reflects Tool’s advice of open-mindedness.


Please show me one.. just one hip hop song that could compare.

I could do this all day with Tool songs, not to mention the greater message throughout the entire album(s).

Lateralus again focuses on the Golden Ratio, but not only by stating so in the lyrics that contain the word "spiral", but in the word numbers of the lines in the verses to coincide with that particular number set.

I've never seen hip hop come close to touching that. And this is just lyrically. Basically all songs are nothing more than poetry when you read the lyrics in themselves. SO why hasn't a rapper attempted something on this level intellectually? spiritually? emotionally?
 
Last edited:
Larr_E said:
But you are thinking the impact on their musical generas and i'm saying the impact they had on music as a whole.

larr E you dont knwo what the fuck youre saying




i am sick and tired of this fucking foruml....there is nothing here but a bunch of fucking people who think its their way or now wy...but "oh this is an open discussion i just want to know your opinion"
HAVE FUN PUTTING uP THREADS ON WHiCH ONLY WHAT YOU SAY GOES...YOU SAY ITS A MATTER OF OPINiON...



no more mr fucking nice guy from headknockah on this forum.....you want to fucking challenge me...you better be ready...i know i will not challengen anything unless i have good reason...and having a good reason doesnt mena WHAT I THINK IS FUCKING RIGHT YOU **********...LARR E YOU OFFICIALLY ****AND FOR ALL THE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD YOU HAVE OWNED ...AND FUCKING BELITTLED...

one day when you leadn soemjthing about people...cultures,.,etc etc....you can speak to me...until then youre nothing but a fucking moron..

Flames and immature name calling removed.
Discuss the topic, leave the petty name-calling game to email or PM.

Original un-edited copy sent to The Worst of Bluelight Forum.

-BlueAdonis
 
Last edited by a moderator:
i hyave showed this thread to several people i know and no one seems to be able to believe how fucking ignorant you are larr e..you can choose to believe that if you want...doesnt matter to me ..i know youre ignorant
 
DigitalDuality said:
.


I love Pac's music don't get me wrong. I guess what i'm getting at.. name me some hip hop that would become a good audible aid for a psychedelic trip. Not just in stirring up the senses, but as a spiritual, mental, and emotional stimulation as well.

]


you also join the official youre a fucking moron club...welcome...join larre
 
Originally posted by Larr_E
Comparing the two isn't stupid if you are comparing the impact they had vs the music itself...


i agree. it doesn't really require doublethink, headknocka.

:)

alasdair
 
DigitalDuality said:
I used Pink Floyd mainly for the Wall as a concept album. Each song is about something in particular, but upon listening to it, there is a greater realization of the state of affairs he speaks of, the overall emotion. The album itself--as a whole, not just singles put together on an album, it a work in itself.. paints a vivid picture that stimulates more of your mind than just politics, culture, intricacies of day by day life.

Rock, classical even more so, jazz, and various other forms have had musicians that can create a piece not to only make you feel, not only think, but to have this great realization of life. Almost a spiritual moment if you will. (and DMX having a gospel rap to God isn't what i'm talking about here). That is something i grasp out of Pink Floyd, Tool, Morrison and Lennon. But hell even these artists pale in comparrison when you start bringing up some of the greats that put together some of the world's most powerful orchestrated pieces/concerts.

When i think of concept album in terms of hip hop, i tend to think of basic innovations in production and beat making.

I love Pac's music don't get me wrong. I guess what i'm getting at.. name me some hip hop that would become a good audible aid for a psychedelic trip. Not just in stirring up the senses, but as a spiritual, mental, and emotional stimulation as well.

As good as Pac is, as influential as his death is, as much as i personally like his music, I think alot of it is hype. Hip Hop has a social stigma where it's cool to give props to people who have been shot. To advertise that you loved someone gunned down. That person gunned down is forever a hero of gansta america. ANd that's on top of the normal youthful immortality normally attributed to musicians who die young (Cobain, Morrison, Hendrix, etc..) I'd go as far to guraantee there's plenty of rappers who call out Pac's name, rap/hip hop fans who swear they were down since day one--and only give a shit b/c of what he now represents and the hype that his death stirred up..and the type of death that it was in comparrison to the culture he was in and representing.

He was a poet, a good rapper who made pop songs.. and made equally meaningful songs not so pop friendly. He was great at rhyming, especially for the time period as well. But i think he's over hyped.

Like i said before though, I think Rap/hip-hop has alot of potential it hasn't even bothered touching.. or even realizing for that matter, b/c of the constraints the culture places upon it. When i listen to international hip hop that doesn't have to adhere to the same social constraints.. or underground hip hop that just doesn't care.. i see where growth, creativity, imagination, and innovation are all there to take it to the next level, i just don't think it has been done yet.

But keep in mind, while i compare this to rock. Rock started in the 40s/50s. What was the 50s rock era like? A lot of Motown, Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, alot of pop songs full of meaningless tripe. Rock started out as a party phase and elevated and expanded from that point to be more than just party and dance music.

Hip hop itself is going through an evolution of its own. But definately under a different climate. And it isn't as diverse racially within america (though it is outside of america). These last 20 years are just the begining, if its truly here to stay (which i believe it is). While today.. rock has been around for about 70. Alot can change in 50 more years.

But back to Tool vs.. <insert rapper>

Here's a explination of Forty-six and Two by Tool


While it is perhaps one of the most concise and punchy tracks on the album, it is also one of the most densely layered, making reference to several schools of thought on life, consciousness, humanity, change and personal evolution.The basic premise is of positive change or personal transformation.

All the usual themes of self analysis and discovery are here; in fact, Forty Six & 2 really marks a point that begins quite a thematic and positive journey that continues into the bands next album, Lateralus.To allow easy navigation through the themes in the song, it is best to briefly explain some the concepts that it makes reference to, and the additional concept of temporary belief systems.In their 1994 newsletter, the band recommended
a book by Bob Frissell entitled ‘Nothing In This Book Is True, But Its Exactly How Things Are’, which explains, the basic concepts behind sacred geometry including the Golden Ratio, Phi.

Beyond the ratio (referred to by some as the Flower of Life), Frissell explains that in addition to our individual consciousness, we have a collective, human consciousness – proposing
that as well as individuals, we are a part of, and intrinsically connected to the greater human organism and beyond that, all living things. The idea of collective consciousness isn’t new, but Frissell’s proposal of how we might realise it is the key to the title, and psychologist Carl Jung’s exploration of it leads us to the next branch of meaning and explains the references to ‘my shadow’.

In his book, Frissell proposes that humans must evolve to take advantage of their collective consciousness. An integral part of that evolution is the addition of two new chromosomes to our genetic construct. Modern humans make use of 22 normal chromosomal pairs, with 2 sex chromosomes
(44 & 2), so the next evolutionary jump ought to take us to 46 & 2. Don’t be concerned if you find yourself feeling sceptical, it took me a long time to accept this as the explanation for such an intelligent band’s song. In fact, I rejected it flatly until introduced to the notion of temporary belief systems, which I’ll explain shortly; but first it is best to deal with the Jungian concepts in the song.Carl Jung began his career in psychology as an understudy to Freud, but who took a much more interesting path of research into the origins and mysteries of self through studies of various cultures, lucid dreaming and personal exploration.

The Jungian concepts of Anima and Shadow
are helpful in understanding Forty-Six and 2 (and much of Tool’s other work).Anima/Animus (pronounced On-ee-mah)In Jungian psychology, the anima refers to personality traits regarded as feminine that are often repressed into the unconscious
of males, while the animus refers to traits regarded as masculine that are often repressed into the unconsciousness of females. Although suppressed from conscious
awareness, the anima/animus influences our behaviour in powerful ways. In most individuals, it is projected onto people of the opposite sex and accounts for the experience of falling in love with someone we hardly know. As the unconscious pole of the self, the counter-ego represented by the anima/animus can also be a guide to one’s own unconscious realm. It is often experienced as the guiding female (if you’re male) or male (if you’re female) presence in dreams.

The ShadowIn Carl Jung’s personality theory, the ego represents the individual’s sense of personal
self. The sense of personal identity is purchased, however, at the expense of certain tendencies that are rejected as ‘not-self’. According to Jung, these rejected traits come together as a kind of unconscious ‘counter-ego’ which he termed the shadow. We may become unduly anxious or irritated when in an environment or around a person that in some way reminds us of repressed aspects of our self. If a person has rejected his or her own sex drive, for example, that person may feel irrational fear or anger around an overtly sexual individual. The shadow may appear as a person in one’s dreams, usually as an individual of the same sex. Of all the archetypes, the shadow is the most powerful and potentially the most dangerous. It represents everything about ourselves that we fear and despise.Let’s return to Frissell’s book, and chromosomal theory (which, it should be noted, is expanded from Drunvalo Melchizadek’s sacred geometry theories). If you were sceptical about the talk of human evolution through pronounced genetic change, then exhale now. Basic research into chromosomal
development shows that more doesn’t equate to better, or more highly evolved – some primates already have 46 & 2 chromosomes, rabbits have almost 100. Frissell’s theory is fundamentally flawed.So why make use of it? Although Frissell’s ideas about human development are wrong, exploring them for a little while as though they aren’t gives us an opportunity to see things differently, to consider things from a new angle, and perhaps learn something we would otherwise miss, and in that way his ideas are still valuable. In the song, 46 & 2 provides a tight metaphor for discovery, progression and evolution. The notion of discovery though temporary belief systems reflects Tool’s advice of open-mindedness.


Please show me one.. just one hip hop song that could compare.

I could do this all day with Tool songs, not to mention the greater message throughout the entire album(s).

Lateralus again focuses on the Golden Ratio, but not only by stating so in the lyrics that contain the word "spiral", but in the word numbers of the lines in the verses to coincide with that particular number set.

I've never seen hip hop come close to touching that. And this is just lyrically. Basically all songs are nothing more than poetry when you read the lyrics in themselves. SO why hasn't a rapper attempted something on this level intellectually? spiritually? emotionally?

NOTHING BUT A LOAD OF FUCKING SHIT!!
 
Dude, calm down, it's just a musical discussion. If you don't agree, simply state so and walk away, maybe state why you don't. If you wanted to get technical it can be pointless to compare and contrast people within a genre. Can i compre west coast vs east coast rap? Old school vs. dirty south? Or Eminem vs Big L? You can compare and contrast anything. I started on the broader scheme of music itself and what it does for me. What i look for in music. That simple.
 
I understand where you come from...and I also see how it has eaten you up to the point of rage & anger....and bitterness.
snap out of it man. chill please. The world is NOT out to get you.
 
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