🌟🌟 Social 🌟🌟 PD Social Thread 2022-2025 v. Year of the Phenethylamine

[porkstock]

I think the reason people might feel upset about patents for psychedelics is that we feel that psychedelics should be for everyone, not for profit. And patents on drugs are part of why pharmaceuticals are so insanely expensive... patents lead to monopolies, which lead to out of control prices.

Nailed it. Also, patents are meant to protect innovation. And this patent by Compass Pathways is being challenged due to NOT being new. I don't think the patent should have ever been granted. I'm no expert but I do have to deal with patent law a tiny bit in my small pharma job.

Patents also tend to fuck over small companies, because bigger better funded companies grab the low hanging fruit (like crystallizing psilocybin and claiming it's a new crystal) and prevent small companies from competing and... monopolies like Xorkoth said.

Always had a real fondness for MDA

Hey man I wanted to thank you for posting that podcast a few pages back with Dennis McKenna. It has really invigorated my interest in consuming psychedelic articles and podcasts

Very interesting to learn that mushrooms were not widely available in the 60s. I had assumed they were. It was mostly LSD, MDA, some DMT, DET and that's about it I think Dennis was saying. In a way, LSD has had a more well studied history of use than mushrooms. And DET had become very intriguing to me, just reading about the history of it.

Shulgin lists it as orally active in the DET entry, and apologizes in the extension and commentary to say that it was his mistake to day in other publications that DET wasn't orally active. He owns up to being wrong...but he didn't correct the mistake in the commentary for two other compounds.
He says how adding a 2-methyl to a base tryptamine that's not orally active will make it so. And uses DMT and DET as examples. And a 2nd place too so I was pretty confused working this out last night after midnight, flipping through my copies of TiHKAL and PiHKAL.

I noticed that Shulgin seemed to love 5-meo-dipt (calls it LSD-like) and 4-ho-dipt (says he doubts there is a psychedelic anywhere that can match it for speed, intensity, brevity and sensitivity to dose - that is orally active)
But he doesn't show the same love for the MiPT versions. Having only tried 4-ho-mipt if these tryptamines listed, it makes me pretty curious about 4-ho-dipt, as well as foxy (5-meo-dipt right?) and moxy. But if I ever were to venture into new to me tryptamines (not that likely), I might be more likely to go for a different 4-sub like 4-ho-met, which shulgin basically lost his notes on, so they entry is pretty brief - yet it seems to be a community favorite.

Another interesting note from PiKHAL - Shulgin went on quite a "bender" after his first wife died. After he decided to "pull the plug" on his wife that he was cheating on. Anyways, he did:
40 mg 4-thiomescaline a couple weeks after the funeral (a new high dose) on Saturday.

16 mg 2cb, another new high dose for him at the time, on Wed. on a red eye flight.

140 mg MDMA on Fri.
20 mg 2ce on Sunday, another new high dose (with some significant cross tolerance I'm guessing)

First I wondered if that could have contributed to his neutral or dark assessment of 2ce, but he doesnt say that about 2cb or MDMA, and I know what he means from taking 2ce many years back, many times


QUESTION FOR ALL
Does anyone know why 4-hyroxy chemicals can pass the blood brain barrier, but 5-hydroxy chemicals have a hard time or can't pass the BBB? Shulgin says that exposed, polar OH groups make it difficult to get into the brain (like for 5-HO-DMT AKA bufotenine - I also know that serotonin, 5-HO-T, doesn't pass the BBB)...
Is the 4 position hydroxyl not "exposed"?

 

[Bagseed]

Does anyone know why 4-hyroxy chemicals can pass the blood brain barrier, but 5-hydroxy chemicals have a hard time or can't pass the BBB? Shulgin says that exposed, polar OH groups make it difficult to get into the brain (like for 5-HO-DMT AKA bufotenine - I also know that serotonin, 5-HO-T, doesn't pass the BBB)...
Is the 4 position hydroxyl not "exposed"?

maybe it is because the 4-OH can hydrogen bond to the amine, whereas the 5-OH is not able to due to being further away from the amine. this might make the molecule more compact and less polar to the outside environment because the ability to form H-bonds with water is limited.

just slightly educated guessing out of my ass here

 

[arrall]

Love listening to Hamilton Morris content, just found this one I haven't heard before and figured I'd check it out on my day off. What a smart guy, he is and very engaging, this one is with Denis McKenna another brilliant man who has done us all a great service.

Was listening this one by Owsley "Bear" Stanley the other night that was really interesting, what an epic life that man had. Lot's of cool lectures on YouTube these days, I can never get tired of hearing about Psychedelics.

Which podcast was with Dennis McKenna? Video appears to now be private.

 

[porkstock]

Just YouTube search Hamilton Morris Dennis McKenna. I saw two videos of the same interview. One with a stationary psychedelic background, one with Dennis’s face

 

[arrall]

Just YouTube search Hamilton Morris Dennis McKenna. I saw two videos of the same interview. One with a stationary psychedelic background, one with Dennis’s face

Cool I think it’s on Spotify too, that is usually where I listen to podcasts since it’s ad-free, lets me close my phone screen, and keeps the time I paused at when I go back to it later.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well aMT oral and plugging doses are the same from what Xorky tells me and he knows his shit so I have always just taken his word on stuff like that. I have personally only plugged it cuz I have a very sensitive stomach and the tales of nausea had me a little freaked out, when I plug it I never have any issues with body load at all it just feels nice the whole time.

Yeah, AMT is odd in that it is not much more active rectally than it is orally. I suppose it must have a high BA orally. I think it might be slightly stronger rectally, but if so, it's not by much. Where as most psychedelics tend to be twice as potent or more taken rectally vs orally. I still like to plug AMT though, because it makes the come-up faster, and the bodyload and especially the nausea are lessened quite a bit. In fact, I rarely bother plugging drugs anymore, generally I just take things orally, but AMT is the exception, I always plug it if possible.

Having only tried 4-ho-mipt if these tryptamines listed, it makes me pretty curious about 4-ho-dipt, as well as foxy (5-meo-dipt right?) and moxy.

Personally I find 4-HO-DiPT extremely lackluster, I just don't really care for it. But 4-HO-MiPT is lovely, lovely stuff, really great, one of my favorite tryptamines. 5-MeO-DiPT is nice, but I also like 5-MeO-MiPT quite a bit more.

DiPT itself is wildly unique over any other psychedelic, though.

 

[porkstock]

Well that was quick

Judges Deny Challenge to Psilocybin Patent

The Patent Trial and Appeal Board decided that petitions against Compass Pathways' psilocybin patents would not move forward to trial.

www.vice.com

 

[tired of crap]

Whats up folks?
Been a while since Ive posted. Life has been kinda challenging but things are finally coming around. So Im planning to trip some more. I had 4 tabs of ALD52 July 1st. It was nice, quite strong but it never got to be too much. Some insights but was really just looking for a catalyst to reduce my drinking. And I have, for now anyways lol

Ive also been enjoying some thc nano emulsions of late. But I feel like its time for another trip again soon.

I ve been leaning towatds trying out this DPT.
I had mentioned I had titrate oral doses (in another thread) to no avail (up to 100mg?). So Im thinking ill try IN.
Im slightly hesitant to snort it, as its been a long time since Ive snorted anything psychedelic, the last being 2ce....... and that was, rather unpleasant. Between that and tales of how bad dpt hurts to insufflate Im a little hesitant.

But, @Xorkoth , I read your post in the other thread regarding hcl vs fb.
Does anyone have any experience using DPT hcl via IN? Doses?
I see 50mg is said to be a low/common dose, on psychonautwiki anyways. Think thatd be a good place to start?

 

[Xorkoth]

I think that would be a good place to start, yes. Nasal shouldn't be too bad with HCL.

 

[tired of crap]

Thoughts on redosing, if Im not quite where Id like to be?
I havent really ever redosed psyches before

 

[Xorkoth]

It works pretty well, it works best if you redose before the peak is over, once the peak is over, tolerance starts to set in. Seems like whenever I redose post-peak, it brings back some of the intensity but mostly it just increases the duration. Redosing before the peak seems to work about as good as if you just dosed it all at once, and redosing during the peak will make it stronger but not quite as much as if you dosed it all at once. At least that has been my experience.

 

[arrall]

Well that was quick

Judges Deny Challenge to Psilocybin Patent

The Patent Trial and Appeal Board decided that petitions against Compass Pathways' psilocybin patents would not move forward to trial.

www.vice.com

This appeal still did do something. The board ruled that the patent only applies to Polymorph A. So other psilocybin polymorphs are in the clear to be manufactured.

Carey Turnbull, founder and director of Freedom to Operate, said that while the organization disagrees with the decision to deny the petition, “we are confident that the PTAB’s narrow interpretation of Compass’s patent claims will provide generic manufacturers of psilocybin with wide latitude to produce and commercialize psilocybin without risk of violating the Compass patents.”

I’m more concerned about MindMed’s patent on candyflipping and the patent on DMT vape pens. Those are fucking ridiculous.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Whats up folks?
Been a while since Ive posted. Life has been kinda challenging but things are finally coming around. So Im planning to trip some more. I had 4 tabs of ALD52 July 1st. It was nice, quite strong but it never got to be too much. Some insights but was really just looking for a catalyst to reduce my drinking. And I have, for now anyways lol

Ive also been enjoying some thc nano emulsions of late. But I feel like its time for another trip again soon.

I ve been leaning towatds trying out this DPT.
I had mentioned I had titrate oral doses (in another thread) to no avail (up to 100mg?). So Im thinking ill try IN.
Im slightly hesitant to snort it, as its been a long time since Ive snorted anything psychedelic, the last being 2ce....... and that was, rather unpleasant. Between that and tales of how bad dpt hurts to insufflate Im a little hesitant.

But, @Xorkoth , I read your post in the other thread regarding hcl vs fb.
Does anyone have any experience using DPT hcl via IN? Doses?
I see 50mg is said to be a low/common dose, on psychonautwiki anyways. Think thatd be a good place to start?

HCl really isn't bad, you're worrying about nothing man. It's dead last on the list of all the reasons why you shouldn't trip on it but there are also plenty why you should.
I believe @Img_9999 took 50mg his first time and I'm sure that was plenty intense. But I've heard it's also very good in lower doses...

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Intense, but it somehow just works with the drug.
Dark room, speakers and a bed is what I'd say..
Unless you're that guy that went to a park on DPT & ketamine and was experiencing every moment twice

 

[unodelacosa]

Does anyone know why 4-hyroxy chemicals can pass the blood brain barrier, but 5-hydroxy chemicals have a hard time or can't pass the BBB? Shulgin says that exposed, polar OH groups make it difficult to get into the brain (like for 5-HO-DMT AKA bufotenine - I also know that serotonin, 5-HO-T, doesn't pass the BBB)...
Is the 4 position hydroxyl not "exposed"?

This is a good question, one that ultimately comes down to physics and the electromagnetic attractions and repulsions between subatomic particles. Owing to these physical properties, the 4-position of a drug tends to be the "magic spot" as Dr. Shulgin once put it. Consider the 2C-x series for a moment. The 2-position and 5-position always contain methoxy groups, but it's the 4-position that changes the drug: bromine produces 2C-B, iodine produces 2C-I, chlorine produces 2C-C, sulfur gives us the 2C-T-x series, and then of course there are chained methyl groups giving us 2C-D, 2C-E, 2C-P, etc. The whole series can be echoed out in a 3-carbon arrangement, usually called DOx but optionally this can be called 3C-x if you consider the methylated alpha position to be a third carbon group. Either way, we can now iterate through the same series of substituted 4-position structural analogues.

So it comes down to both the overall oxidative state of the molecule in question and also where on that molecule it carries that charged oxygen atom. Consider for a moment the structure of SSRIs like Fluoxetine (Prozac) and Paroxetine (Paxil). You'll notice they have large phenyl ring moieties attached via a negatively charged oxygen atom. This is what affords these medications something called enantiomeric shielding in which the oxygen atom precludes specific binding but allows other binding to occur depending on the physicality of the receptor site. This is why they're termed "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors".

An oxygen atom in the 4-position does not impact lipophilicity as much as it does in the 5-position and neither of them anywhere as much as if that oxygen were attached to the beta position of the extended amine-bearing chain. The 4-position sort of balances out oxygen's otherwise unbalancing negative charge. When placed elsewhere on the molecule though, everything becomes too polar to pass through the fatty BBB, make sense?

 

[unodelacosa]

HCl really isn't bad, you're worrying about nothing man

Nasal shouldn't be too bad with HCL.

You're trippin'; insufflation of DPT.HCl burns like a sonofabitch. Granted it doesn't persist as long as other things can (see: 2C-B in virtually any salt form), but it's no picnic either. I find it's better to freebase this drug with a bit of dH₂O + Na₂CO₃ (distilled water and soda ash), but I've also theorized this would be a decent candidate for intrarectal administration (ya know – suitcasing it, boofing it, down the street and around the corner, as it were… ). Probably dose would be on par with nasal administration, freebase inhalation, IM and possibly even IV, but idk. Wiser to titrate if you try this route.

There's an entertaining trip report out there wherein someone IV admins DPT.HCl to themselves and describe it glowingly. Also, this is good reading: https://erowid.org/chemicals/dpt/dpt_primer.shtml

Unless you're that guy that went to a park on DPT & ketamine and was experiencing every moment twice

I've experienced these kind of timeloops on 3-HO-PCP + DMT before. They're like short trails of experience instead of just observation of motion providing trails… it's a peculiar phenomenon to experience.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

You're trippin'; insufflation of DPT.HCl burns like a sonofabitch.

Weird, even weirder since there a very similar situation with Xorkoth a couple days ago here.
I did 100+mg twice and snorting it didn't hurt at all.

Maybe it's the batch, or my nose!

I wasn't aware this was so uncommon on HCl, another guy chimed in as well..

 

[tired of crap]

I had read conflicting reports on the burn associated with DPT HCl via IN. Thats why I thought Id check in here.

I have considered boofing (IR, if you will) it though.
Does anyone have any experience with DPT HCl via IR? Does it burn? lol How does the experience, via IR, and side effects (ie body load, burning) compare to IN?

Ultimately, I think Ill just have to dive in to see how IN is for me, but if IR is comparable with less side effects, Ill likely just try that instead. Iirc I should have more than enough left to experiment with a range of doses in both (although I dont have THAT much left)

 

[Xorkoth]

I find that IR really never burns, unless you make a solution too concentrated. For example, I boofed 30mg of 2C-B once, in 1mL of water. it burned pretty bad. But in 3mL of water, there's barely a tingle.

 

[perpetualdawn]

Well that was quick

Judges Deny Challenge to Psilocybin Patent

The Patent Trial and Appeal Board decided that petitions against Compass Pathways' psilocybin patents would not move forward to trial.

www.vice.com

Anyone know what the heck Psilocybin "polymorph A" is? (The form of psilocybin that Compass Pathways is patenting)

Quoting from the vice article:

Earlier this week, the company MindMed received a patent for its combination of MDMA and LSD, despite this being well known as “candy flipping.”

wtf