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  • TDS Moderators: AlphaMethylPhenyl | paranoid android

N.A. meetings and judgmental people

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Jake I think thats the right idea and I know certain people won't agree with it. I'd say yes w/out even thinking about it if I knew you could go right back to the meth clinic after stopping, but I don't know. I just would hate to see you stop the clinic, not detox, then start using dope again. But I can tell you for some people the problem isn't what opiate they're on, but that they're on opiates at all. I just keep looking back to my own trip to detox and how good I felt walking out of that place. WDs were over, I felt clean and healthy and motivated to start living life again.
But that wasn't my experience this recent time stopping. As you know I tapered off and was having a more than difficult time afterwards doing the things I needed to. I think in the end man you gotta sometimes go on your intuition and just do it. And it seems like when you're on any drug at all you just don't really give a fuck what other drugs you wind up taking. I'm somewhat the sameway myself like "hmm I'm drinking might as well smoke a cigarette too" or "I'm doing opium might as well just smoke pot too". You don't really give a shit and I think it largely depends on how your introduced to substitution opiates.
You were introduced to both suboxone and methadone w/out any sort of solid rehab program, and I think you associate both of those drugs as drugs to feel good on, rather than use to build a stable life. I mean give me some suboxone and I'm shooting that shit up my ass no way in hell I'm trying to go to rehab and NA meetings on it. People are just different and I think you know better than anyone else where you fit.
 
Yes i know that when i go and get a methadone dose every morning , i say to myself , "well i already have that in me , whats the diference if i do a bag of dope or some coke" I am going to stop the meth for about 72 hours (long enough so that i can take a sub) i only got 5 subs purposly so that I can use them JUST to kick and not for maitenance...........I also have tramadol incase i feel crappy for when the subs end.................Dont know if it would help at all but ill have 60 of them. And i am going to a friends so this way I am not going to be copping dope or coke or anything..........She is clean and letting me stay with her until i feel strong enough to go back home................And yeah i may go home and feel crappy and still wanna use but i have to decide that i dont wanna live that way anymore. Going to a meth clinic every day for me is not how i want to live.................I feel bad because Lacey thinks that it is a good thing for me , but i just cant see myself staying on it and succeeding
 
You need a plan for once you do get back if you are really gonna do this ridiculous sub detox and have any chance at actually staying clean. Just saying to yourself and us "i dont wanna live like that anymore" isn't enough, especially since all your actions point to you wanting to get high. How you gonna deal with PAWS? Once them 5 subs run out you're still gonna have to go thru withdrawals from them as well. Too much wishful thinking. From what you are saying this can only end in disaster, and that is not me being a jerk. It's me giving you a reality check.
 
Well at some point whether or not Jake does get clean I'm starting to realize that noone can tell him what wishful thinking is. He might think 5 subs are going to help but its the same exact thing as just taking more methadone to kick methadone. It doesn't make sense. Even if he just takes .5mg he's just delaying that small amount of wds for when he stops the sub.

Thats why I really think subs are useless to kick other drugs with. Its far too powerful and delays wds like the original drug you're on.
Buttttt, those 60 tramadol imo would be MUCH more useful for kicking. Tramadol does not delay methadone wds and will do a lot for him during wds. And 60 is a good number to work with (although I'd prob want closer to 80-100 myself). You can take 4 tram in the morning then 4 at night to sleep, and I really think that will have you feeling decent. But in all seriousness man this is just my opinion, go trade those subs for some tram. A lot of people on this forum have luck using tram and I've read countless stories about the 'self regulating' properties it has for some people. I'm one of those people because I can have 400 tram in my possession and not use them all in one day, I don't really care I have them till I run low on other opiates.
But really man those subs arent gonna do shit for you. Youd be better off doing a quick taper with the meth than trying to substitute with sub. But like I said those tram would be a lot more useful than I think you realize. Can you get more tram? Really man give it a shot. Just stop taking the meth one day and replace it with tram for a week. Stop the tram and if you're still sick take a bit more. It could take a couple weeks to really get all the methadone out of your body, but I never read stories about tramadol delaying wds. Its just different and really a blessing for wds.
 
Bo if subs are so useless why did they give them to me when i kicked a dope habit at seabrook house and after taking them a few days i wasnt hurting that bad ? Isnt tram way too weak compared to methadone ? I just think staying on methadone is the worst thing .............coming off of that after being on it long term is gonna be hell .....................I thought the tram would be good to take after the subs are gone...........and you say how will i get off tram , well i didnt think having 60 tram would be enough to be that hard to get off of ? worse case scenario , i get a few more subs if i cant handle it , but i cant see how people think methadone is a good thing. if i have been on it less than 2 months , its gotta be easier coming off now than a year from now ..........
 
Yeh but at seabrook didn't you just keep taking the subs? Or did you actually stop?
I'm not trying to convince you that tramadol is better, my point is its too easy to overdue it on the sub and just delay wds. Guys you see on this forum stopping habits usually kick with like 1 or 2 subs most. And the way they do it is by taking extremely small amounts like .5mg or less. You CAN treat wds with sub, but you still have to be in wds for the wds to go away.

With tram thats not the case. And tram works on 3 different regions of the brain. It IS weaker but man its so fucking hard to explain on BL. Its really just 2 different types of wd. If you use sub you'll feel more stable, but you also won't be really withdrawing in the first place. Which means once you stop that sub you're right back at square 1.
With tram you can take a lot of that shit, and although you won't feel as stable as sub, you also won't be in wds either. Its a hard fucking feeling to describe but let me put it in terms of my own situation.
I stopped pods and went to sub and kept jumping off at 1mg sub then getting slammed with wds. The only way I was able to not get slammed by delayed wds was by tapering the sub down to .25 over the course of a month. If you are not able to taper the sub to super low like that, you're doing nothing in the end but delaying wds.
There was another time (not this last time) where I actually ran out of pods completely and wasn't even able to taper at all. I was in horrendous wds and took like 200mg of tram. After that I don't remember really feeling wds anymore, I was actually overstimulated and happy feeling. I felt kinda shakey like my body still wanted pods but I was still held 100%, and pods are just as strong as methadone at the doses I was taking, so don't worry about tramadol being too weak. Tramadol is a lot more effective than you would think. I stayed on the tramadol for like 5 days and ran out. But I noticed absolutely no wds, I was emotionally fucked though because I had no opiates and wound up going right back to pods at that time.
But if I had tramadol right now man you have no idea what a blessing that shit is for wds. I'd prefer it anyday over sub because you can take as much as you need w/out really worrying about delayed wds (well dont take too much obviously due to seizures) but it holds people over and once you stop, wds are done.
Thats never the case with sub unless you actually taper the sub. Tramadol is different because it allows your body to wd at a much faster rate than sub, while holding you over nearly as close as sub itself would. Its hard to explain man but if you read stories on erowid about it as there are tons.
Research is actually currently testing tramadol vs bupe and its already showing it has an ability to hold over even severe heroin habits, so don't worry about strength. There are stories all over the next though and every story I've read about people using tram for wds has gone like this:

Stopped oxy/hydro/heroin and took tramadol, felt almost no wds while on tramadol, stopped tramadol and wds never came back.
Heres 1 story on erowid:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=20691

But if you just type into google: tramadol for opiate wds you can get a lot of information about it.
I read too many sub stories that go like this:
Stopped oxy/heroin/whatever, took sub for wds, felt almost no wds, stopped sub, wds came right back.
Thats my only point is tramadol allows you to wd while you're on it while it blocks wds, sub does too but its affinity is soooo g/damn high it always winds up delaying them unless you are on an absurdly low dose.

And to helpme tramadol is not like other opiates in terms of physical addiction. I've taken that stuff before for 3 months w/out getting addicted. Its not as slow as benzos in terms of onset of addiction but its definitely not as fast as typical opiates, lets not forget tram is an atypical opoid, and I love all its "atypical" properties. Read around man and you'll find a lot of success stories using tram, and they usually end in the user stopping opiates, not going right back to another opiate because wds came right back. But remember this is only for the purpose of acute wds, PAWs is a WHOLE NOTHER beast and even if you use the tram and get past the acute wds, you still need some way of dealing with paws. I just like tram because its self regulating for a lot of people. You only see like 1 or 2 addictions on BL everyear to it. It just doesn't have a superhigh tendency to be abused. People like it, but you never see people robbing banks for the shit.
If you DO get addicted to the shit then yeh the wds from it are prob worse than any opiate out there, but its just not hard to control your use of it at all. Its even easier for me to control my tram use than sub, and sub doesn't even really do shit. I think its just an opiate you might want to read about/educate yourself on.

ehh that link was the wrong one lol. I'm trying to gather you all the articles I read on people using tram to kick and I'll post them later.
 
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thanks man .but what if i used sub just a few days , then tram after that ? you would really not use sub at all , just right to tram ?
 
Hmm man you know what lets get off topic for a second lol.

When are you done with school? I just got word like an hour ago that my brother is leaving
to go to mexico from the 16th to the 22nd. I have a final on the 22nd (last day of class) but I'm doing a 'partial detox' at his house from the 16th to right before class on the 22nd. I won't be using the whole time I'm there but when I leave I'm hoping back on like 10gms because I know I'll be half way through wds by then.
I think we should try to arrange a meet reall soon man. Even if you don't feel like driving up here I can go down there but we'd at least have a private place to chill and plan/talk about shit. We can even make some phone calls to find out about free detox or w/e. Or we can just talk about shit.
But if you feel like doing something let me know. If anything a bit of moral support can go a long way. I'm gonna have a cig real quick then I'll try to reiterate about the tram/sub when I'm back.
 
i finish school on wenesday so i was gonna try to take last methadone dose saturday or sunday, skip either sun-mon-tues, or just mon and tues and then take a sub and go to my friend jens house on wensday after the last final and she said i can stay there while im kickin the methadone..............
 
^Arent you addicted to opioids in general though? Like mentally and physically.

Do you think you're going to start craving for some kind of opioid once the 'done withdrawals kick in(and trust me give it three days and you will know what i mean)? Or you think you're just going to use your will power while you feel like hell shaking like a fucking twig?

Has this approach ever worked for you in the past? What do you plan to do when you've been awake for a week sick as a dog, <snip>
 
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Well all i am trying to do is get off opiates .................and i seem to be getting such a hard time from everyone
 
jake99 said:
Well all i am trying to do is get off opiates .................and i seem to be getting such a hard time from everyone
Click to expand...

You're getting a hard time because you don't seem to understand you're just repeating this process over and over. Very few people with a habit like yours have the willpower to just stop. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is highly unlikely given your 1500+ posts and it still hasn't happened. One of the best ways to really get away from it is to find a reason to not want it anymore. Simply stating "I wanna be off opiates" doesn't mean it will simply become that way.

For me, it took an OD. And it wasn't really even the overdose. It was the fact that my life would have been over if no one had called for help. It was the fact that I was found with a blue face, not breathing and slumped over a toilet. All because I needed to nod out. This experience made me disgusted with heroin, and everything that comes with using it. It made me feel selfish in a way. I would have left my family with the memory that their son died a drug addict. I looked back at all the time, and money, strained relationships, physical possessions, financial resources, all this shit that went into drug abuse. I got fed up with it and did something about it. I got on Suboxone, it has helped tremendously in getting my shit together. I've been on it almost 4 years. Even tho I'm still paying for all the years of drug use, these have been the best 4 years of my life! Suboxone didn't simply make my life perfect (believe me i'm definitely far from it), but it sure did help. I'm sure you understand methadone can do the same.

Stabilizing, and changing the things in your life that revolve around drug use, then tapering properly is the way to get clean. I really, really think getting off methadone is the worst thing you can do at this point in your life. So what you have to go in each morning for a dose? I can think of a million things worse than spending an hour of my day taking something that can help get my life together. Let it stabilize your life, then worry about getting off it.
 
i dont know .....................i just feel like the methadone isnt helping, and that the only way im gonna be clean is if i go to my friends for a week or so and just kick..............and my reason for wanting to do this is because im sick of hurting my family, and i want my life to get better. i dont feel like its going to just by staying on methadone...............
 
more action less thinking brother . that's the only cure at this point . I strongly recommend you go with your instincts here and go to a place that is safe and make sure you ride it out. Best of luck to you man , i know what you are going through is a head trip and not fun.
 
For me i thought if anything the tramadol would make the w/d longer then the subs.
I remember my easiest detox ever was in a place where they gave me tramadol,trazadone and clonodine.
I felt surprisingly really good for the week i was at the detox.
But the day i left i felt like all the w/d that i didnt really feel for a week hit me in one shot it was horrible.
I would like to give it another shot tho.Even tho im down to way less then .5mg of sub a day i still really feel it when i stop.
I think im just being a pussy tho my brain is tricking me into thinking i need more subs when i really could just stop.
Anyways jake i think you are doing alot better then you wer say a month ago.I think you're head is finally in its right place and that your headed in the right direction.
I think even you are getting sick of all these threads.Just think about how good you are gonna feel when you open up a thread saying how you are finally clean.
Just that should give you the motivation 2 get clean and i belive in you and i believe you will be clean,sober and happy very soon :)
 
I need to point out that I have told Jake that it won't be a good idea for him to come here after all. I spoke in depth to someone who I know well who is now the head of a detox clinic. He pointed out so many issues to me. The safety and health of Jake while in WD. That he would be out of state and network should I have to bring him to hospital. That Jake's plan of kicking methadone and using 5 subs was not a plan nor a good idea and would not work...Lots of things actually. All I could offer Jake was some clonidine patches and lots of motherly love to get him through which wouldn't be enough! It hurt me to hear that since I think most people really just seek comfort to heal themselves. I do and when I don't get it I tend to cut. Part of my comfort is helping others and usually that means people not related to me! My children have had enough of being mothered and as they are all on their own, helping someone like Jake would have done a lot for me too :) I'm just not willing to put Jake at any risk though. I didn't realize that seizures are a remote possibility when anyone WD's from any drug!

Please be kind to Jake. He needs help and not bullying <3
 
Well i know you are just trying to be safe but there is no danger in withdrawing from opiates..............And when you go to rehabs they use Suboxone for a week or so for you to kick heroin, so how can he say that 5 subs is not enough ?
 
^ Because you are going from methadone to subs and your history of attempts to detox.

Jake, I am 110% positive you will get clean. Like Bo, you may relapse a few times but I think both of you will find the way to get off drugs entirely. When Bo relapsed, he looked at what happened and redid the math so to speak. He broke everything down and dissected it and then even though he had to go back on subs and then pods he still works toward sobriety. I think Bo lives each day with that being his number one thought. He is trying to help you too and I think you should listen to him. You can learn to break things down from him. If you succeed you may just cause him to also :) There are no two people who I am rooting for more than you and Bo.
 
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