[Mushrooms Subthread] Potentiation by Citrus Juice

[OrphicTrench]

First of all, sorry for stating the obvious but I don't think it has been done before -potentiating the effect of mushrooms using citrus juice is called a Lemon Tek, which consists basically in grinding your mushrooms into powder and letting them soak in lemon juice for about 15 minutes. Then drinking the juice and the mushroom powder.

Now, I would like to have the opinion of a wise chemist on this (mainly built from speculation heard in other forums):
The acidity in citrus juice breaks the psilocybin into psilocin, which by not having the stomach to make the conversion while digesting, not only the drug is metabolized faster but the amount being absorbed is also larger.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Actually acids like those in citrus help chemically extract alkaloids from plant material, so its that rather than absorption.

(Note - don't overgeneralize... taking phenethylamines including amphetamines (actually learned this from a warning sticker on a bottle of dexedrine) with acidic beverages causes their absorption to be slowed and their excretion to be accelerated. [and alkalines - Tums, straight baking sode, etc - have the reverse effect, increasing effective strength])

 

[Mr152]

This seems feasible to me. Lemon and lime juice has a pH of 2 or 3 and might be acidic enough to hydrolyze the phosphate ester, converting it to psilocin. This is more water soluble than the ester and probably more bio-available, as well. A 2 or 3 fold increase in potency is certainly within the realm of possibilities.

 

[webbykevin]

Has anyone checked out Erowid's take on this? It seems relevant, and far more informed than most of the answers here which are based on personal experience.

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2726

But my reality is built on my own personal experience, so what if something happens to 700 people that doesn't happen to you, then what use it that to you ?

What is important is having an experience yourself, only they does it become tangible and valid.

 

[shwagg]

Lemon Teking Question

If i leave my mushrooms in the lemon mixture for a few days in the fridge, will it damage the psilocybin at all?
I am under the assumption that the longer i leave it sitting, the more cells will break down in the fungus, and therefore will be released into the mixture.
Thank you.

 

[cryptix420]

That is a little drastic. The longest I have let it sit is for 30 minutes (with intermittent stirring), and I hit my peak in about 60 minutes.

Good luck, this is the future of ingesting mushrooms. Gotta get the word out!

 

[Ismene]

That is a little drastic. The longest I have let it sit is for 30 minutes (with intermittent stirring), and I hit my peak in about 60 minutes.

I hit my peak in 60 minutes without letting it sit in lemon juice tho. Unless you're holding the solution in your mouth for 30-40 minutes it isn't going to hit you any faster.

I think the effects of the lemon are largely placebo.

"You may squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg" - Robert Johnson

 

[cryptix420]

^ You're saying you ate mushrooms regularly and hit the peak of your trip in 60 minutes? That seems.....idk, I don't want to start a war since it's midnight and I've fought with enough people on BL lately. It just seems unlikely considering the metabolization that is necessary in order for the inactive psilocybin to be converted to psilocin before effects can even being. Care to elaborate?

I am only speaking from experience here, not to broadcast, but I did grow mushrooms in bulk for quite some time, and thus did quite a bit of experimenting. With peanut butter, fresh, dry, ground up, made into tea, made into chocolates, I've just about tried it all and nothing compared to the lemon tek. Having first alerts in 5 minutes is defnintely odd, and imo speaks leagues & miles to the lemon tek's efficacy.

Not to mention this 67 page thread on the shroomery..

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4714757

I am curious...have you personally tried the lemon tek?

 

[Ismene]

So you think lemon juice somehow digests the mushrooms for you? Rather than the enzymes in your intestinal tract that would digest every other foodstuff? Any reason why mushrooms should be so different? Does lemon juice digest any other foodstuff but mushrooms? For example, if you put a cucumber in lemon juice would that digest all the alkaloids in cucumber for you?

 

[Venrak]

It's not so much that it digests the mushrooms as in it absorbs them, rather it breaks down the plant matter to allow for a more rapid absorption. Dried mushrooms are quite fibrous and the lemon tek aids in extraction so your GI tract doesn't have to do all the work.

 

[sockpuppet]

edit

 

[cryptix420]

The ascorbic acid (which lemon juice has a lot of) is theorized to begin the process of psilocybin ---> psilocin before it ever enters your stomach. Psilocin is psychoactive, psilocybin is not. Thus the much more rapid onset.

So you think lemon juice somehow digests the mushrooms for you? Rather than the enzymes in your intestinal tract that would digest every other foodstuff? Any reason why mushrooms should be so different? Does lemon juice digest any other foodstuff but mushrooms? For example, if you put a cucumber in lemon juice would that digest all the alkaloids in cucumber for you?

I don't think cucumbers contain psilocybin, less'n you got some real magikal cucumbers 'round your parts.

And when the lemon tek is done, the dried mushrooms are ground to a powder in a coffee grinder. This assures maximum surface area for the lemon juice to do it's work.

 

[2c-goinsane]

im a firm lemon tek believer my first lemon tek trip was one of those ones ill always remember or atleast for a very long time, i also feel effects within 5-10 minutes and visuals begin to set in within 20 minutes. The come up is quick iv never had to wait around it just slams me in the face/mind, they always hit really nicely aswel. everyone iv showed have loved the method, except one person and it just scared the hell out of him.

I would just let the mixture sit for 30 minutes to 1 hour tops ocassionally stiring it.

take it easy everyone

 

[Ismene]

The ascorbic acid (which lemon juice has a lot of) is theorized to begin the process of psilocybin ---> psilocin before it ever enters your stomach.

Theorised who by tho cryptix? The kid down the street who does mushrooms?

Psilocin is psychoactive, psilocybin is not

Yeah I know the theory, I'm just not convinced lemon juice converts psilocybin to psilocin. As far as I'm aware that is done by enzymes in your intestinal tract.

I don't think cucumbers contain psilocybin

Well, the point was that a lot of people misunderstand and think "Dude, it's the acid in your stomach that like digests your food brah". It isn't - it's enzymes in your intestinal tract that do the digesting. I think the lemon juice idea has come from some kid misunderstanding how digestion works, then thinking "Well fuck, if it's acid that digests the mushrooms then I can just put em in lemon juice dude".

It's not so much that it digests the mushrooms as in it absorbs them, rather it breaks down the plant matter to allow for a more rapid absorption.

What form are the mushrooms in when you put them in the lemon juice venrak? Are you talking about putting a whole mushroom in a cup of lemon juice or dried mushroom powder? I think once you've powderised them the plant matter is broken down already.

 

[cryptix420]

^ well, again, I ask you Ismene.. Have you tried the lemon tek? If not the skepticism seems pretty pointless.

 

[Jesusgreen]

My personal theory would be that the lemon juice lowers the pH of your stomach acid and allows for quicker digestion - especially when combined with you having turned the mushrooms into powder beforehand. There shouldn't really be as much potentiation as some people claim if that's the case, but a little, along with a slightly faster come up and shorter overall duration.

 

[delta_9]

Thing is, the pH of your stomach acid is lower than that of lemon juice(chart), so it shouldn't make much difference. Also, dosen't most oral drug absorption happen in the small intestines, in which case the pH is also kept relatively low due to bile?

 

[Jesusgreen]

Thing is, the pH of your stomach acid is lower than that of lemon juice(chart), so it shouldn't make much difference. Also, dosen't most oral drug absorption happen in the small intestines, in which case the pH is also kept relatively low due to bile?

It should add to the overall concentration of your stomach acid though, which is why people are told to avoid acidic foods and drinks when they have heartburn etc because it makes it worse - despite all of the foods/drinks being a higher pH than stomach acid.

I'm not talking about the actual absorption of the drug itself, but more the overall breakdown of material to an even finer state, which then speeds up the absorption later on. That's why I said I don't think this would provide a huge potentiation, as powdering your mushrooms would already contribute enough as is.

 

[Ismene]

^ well, again, I ask you Ismene.. Have you tried the lemon tek? If not the skepticism seems pretty pointless.

No, I always take my mushrooms capsuled - less taste and more comfortable. I'm perfectly happy with the effects I experience. Drinking the tea does make them hit a little quicker (because some will be absorbed by the mucous membranes in your mouth) but I don't really see the point in them coming on faster.

If all you needed to do to convert psilocybin to psilocin was put them in lemon juice I think we'dve heard a little more about it. What we have is the placebo effect in action.

 

[Solipsis]

I think we'dve heard a little more about it.

Why is that?

From what i hear synthetic psilocin is quite the bees knees, also 4-HO tryptamines other than psilocin are known for their short onset which completely corresponds with the few times I have done a citrus juice tek. Mind you, this was done before I ever knew anything about psychedelics so that makes it harder to get a placebo effect - if you are completely ignorant. Which I was during that shrooming phase.

Think about 4-AcO-DMT, it is also less rushing and more dilated and gradual in it's comeon. I don't think conversion of present psilocybin to psilocin should be called anything magical or even truly potentiating... but the profile of effects does seem to be different. I have had an onset of no more than 5 minutes and I was already overwhelmed. A liquid as a good ROA probably helped but not *that* much. Getting attacked by totally overt visuals that quickly gives you a different general experience than slowly and gradually being eased into it like 4-AcO-DMT.

The pharmacokinetic difference alone of ingesting a pro-drug opposed to an active metabolite is underestimated IMO. Regardless of the actual activity of the pro-drug itself the kinetics could be interpreted to change the set and setting at the core.