[Mushrooms Subthread] Potentiation by Citrus Juice

[cryptix420]

^ Damn are you still going on dude? Here's a suggestion -

try the damned lemon tek for yourself, and then get back to us


"When life gives you lemons, do the fucking lemon tek."

 

[Ismene]

^^

Change the record brah. I've told you several times, if you like soaking your mushrooms in lemon then you go ahead. Soak them till you can't soak them anymore and wear your mothers pantyhose on your head if you like, that makes them even stronger.

Incidentally, I have tried taking them with orange juice and noticed no effect whatsoever. Just a foul taste. That's why I take them capsuled.

 

[Ismene]

everyone iv showed it to as been blown away, 1 guy will never eat them again and hes ate them plenty of times without any problems before. everyone else claims thats the only way theyll eat em and its a whole different trip than usual.

How did you run these experiments 2c? Were you stood over them excitedly saying "This method makes mushrooms three times as strong brah, just wait till you try these". And then every 10 minutes into the trip were you saying "Can you feel it yet dude? I told you, I told you"? Did you contrast them with trips when you just took mushrooms normally? Did you note down the exact time alerts they noted the mushrooms coming on and were these different?

In short, how reliable was your experimental procedure? Can we rely on your conclusions?

Maybe next you could try soaking the mushrooms in urine while all the time telling them "These were soaked in lemon juice dude, you won't believe what's going to happen to you". See whether they notice any difference or not.

 

[2c-goinsane]

Could be placebo but then again it could actually work never know until you try it.

And really need to try it for yourself before basically trying to tell people its just in there head when you have zero trials to go off of yourself, but it might not work since you think it wont work so much. If it does work and you have that mentality that it wont work then its gonna surprise the hell out of you like it did me, I also didnt think itd work or was possible, I couldnt fathom tripping that hard off 1.75 at the time I know it does something different its very clear.

Iv told many people about it I didnt hound them about it or anything just let them did there thing, just said it was a different method and may make it easier on them, they went home with some of the same strain I use and prepared it. All came back saying the same exact thing had experienced a very spiritual type experience. These people have ate them dry and in chocolates many times before.

Even had a guy tell me a while back he mixed some mushrooms in some freshly squeezed orange juice to mask the flavor and he let it sit around while he was cleaning his room and he experienced a trip clearly different than usual but at the time he had no clue citrus might cause somthing to change and didnt ever think of it, then when I told him he said it made more since.

Who knows though could be placebo still never know.

 

[Ismene]

I've tried orange juice - that made no difference whatsoever. Is lemon so different to orange?

 

[cryptix420]

Yes, lemons are different than oranges.

Lemons have an average pH of 2.4, while oranges are around 3.5. Interestingly, your mother's vagina is a -69.

 

[Ismene]

So you think it's something particular to lemons and doesn't work with any other citrus fruit? It must be the placebolemonine.

 

[cryptix420]

Yes, that is my belief.

 

[Ismene]

Based on what evidence?

 

[2c-goinsane]

i actually use a combination of freshly squeezed oranges and lemons, what ill do soon is eat some more dry to see if theres that big of a difference since the last 3 times have been all lemon tekd, got me wondering now ismene

 

[Lazyscience]

so i dont have time to read this thread.

whats the consensus? does it work or not?

 

[Ismene]

In summary for you Lazy:

1) Solipsis suggests lemon juice brings it on faster.
2) 2c-goinsane has suggested lemon juice supercharges the psilocybin making it 2-3 times more powerful.
3) Cryptix has suggested it is only lemon juice that does this - not any other form of citrus fruit so it can't be anything to do with citric acid or vitamin c. (It has been suggested that this active ingredient maybe "placebo-lemon-ine")
4) I have suggested the effect is entirely placebo.
5) Bagseed is on his third trip.

 

[Hah]

citric acid is a chelating agent, it may protect the phosphoryl group, from degradation.

that's just my guessing

cheers.

 

[cryptix420]

@ lazyscience -

as the literal definition of consensus is "majority of opinion" the consensus in this thread is that the lemon tek DOES indeed work.

 

[Rorthron]

To add to the discussion. Taking DMT in salt form is much more effective than in freebase form. This is no placebo. It's a fact. DMT in freebase is not as readily absorbed and is much more prone to nausea. To make the freebase into the salt, I just add generally vinegar or HCl until I get a solution and take it 20 min after the MAOI. The stomach acids are not very effective in salting the DMT, and the enzymatic soup there does not make the process straightforward, and that's why when using the freebase, the startup is slower and much more nausea prone

Now, psilocybin will be probably in salt form, bound to some mushroom matter, which may be insoluble. Adding an acid will cause the psilocybin become soluble and more readily available to the GI tract and therefore more potent. Do not forget that psilocybin is still deaminated by the MAOI (even if in a less effective way than DMT) - that's why if you chew some harmala before the mushies you will be skyrocketed to infinity. No question of placebo here! So my guess is that any strong enough acid (pH < 3.0) will be able to make the alkaloids more bioavailable and therefore more potent. That's why lemon should work and not orange. Vinegar should also be an option.

I've researched several reports on that issue and I'm convinced it should work. Next week or so I'll know for sure and I have a very good consistent batch that I will try for myself. Even if I get a positive result I know it does not prove anything, but will be one further element to the discussion. Using vinegar instead of lemon, and getting also a positive will also be a strong back to the hypothesis.

 

[Ismene]

you'd see it's ascorbic acid and not citric acid

Then why did you claim orange juice wouldn't work? Do you realise that orange juice contains ascorbic acid?

Don't take this personally mate - we disagree about the lemon tek there's no need to feel this is a deep personal attack on you. It really isn't that important. If we met, we'd share some mushrooms and have a laugh about it.

To add to the discussion. Taking DMT in salt form is much more effective than in freebase form. This is no placebo. It's a fact. DMT in freebase is not as readily absorbed and is much more prone to nausea. To make the freebase into the salt, I just add generally vinegar or HCl until I get a solution and take it 20 min after the MAOI. The stomach acids are not very effective in salting the DMT, and the enzymatic soup there does not make the process straightforward, and that's why when using the freebase, the startup is slower and much more nausea prone

Interesting rorthron, I find taking DMT in the salt form causes just as much nausea as the freebase. The only way around it is taking essence of lemon oil to help with the nausea.

Adding an acid will cause the psilocybin become soluble and more readily available to the GI tract and therefore more potent.

Is lemon juice really so powerful that it can dissolve mushroom matter inside 20 minutes? And isn't psilocybin dephosphoryliated to psilocin almost exclusively in the liver? That's the whole purpose of the liver - to carry out those biochemical reactions. It's got to be processed by the liver however long you've soaked it in lemon juice - that's a physical certainty.

I've researched several reports on that issue and I'm convinced it should work. Next week or so I'll know for sure and I have a very good consistent batch that I will try for myself.

It would be useful if you could make it double-blind. Mix some with lemon juice, some without lemon juice and then ask a friend to choose which ones to give you.

 

[Rorthron]

Hi Ismene

Interesting rorthron, I find taking DMT in the salt form causes just as much nausea as the freebase. The only way around it is taking essence of lemon oil to help with the nausea.

I had this discussion some years ago at the DMT-Nexus many times. It was always like this: someone was complaying on how pharmahuasca would make them puke. And I always suggested them to add some vinegar until the freebase dissolved and without exception, for all who tried it, he nausea was always severely reduced. There are 2 types of nausea on DMT. The first one by taking the substance as soon as it arrives on the stomach and then after it starts its effects. The latter is a "brain induced nausea" like in sea-sickness. This is unavoidable, but passes quickly. The first nausea is quite avoidable or minimized if we take it salted.

Is lemon juice really so powerful that it can dissolve mushroom matter inside 20 minutes? And isn't psilocybin dephosphoryliated to psilocin almost exclusively in the liver? That's the whole purpose of the liver - to carry out those biochemical reactions. It's got to be processed by the liver however long you've soaked it in lemon juice - that's a physical certainty.

I'm not discussing the transformation of psilocybin to psilocyn, but rather the chemical release of psilocybin from the mushroom organic matter. When one does extractions like extracting DMT from mimosa, one always add acid (like vinegar, or HCl), to release the DMT that is bound to the tannins, and thus make it more readily soluble. If you do not do that, your yields will be dismal. With mushrooms, my guess is that the same thing may happen. Soak them with acid, release the alkaloids and ingest them. Returning to DMT. My extraction yields range from 1.2-1.5% DMT on mimosa root bark. This means that if I took 3 grams of raw mimosa I should get about 35-45mg ofd DMT. However to get a similar expereince to 40 mg DMT, I need *at least* 5 grams of mimosa, if ingested raw. Which, on DMT, confirms my theory that acid on the plant matter helps the extraction of actives and may facilitate a more ready absorption. Also, if you check on erowid, most recipes for mimosahuasca use... lemon!

It would be useful if you could make it double-blind. Mix some with lemon juice, some without lemon juice and then ask a friend to choose which ones to give you.

Interesting idea, but it would be difficult, as I believe I could track the taste of lemon or vinegar anywhere. So even if my partner in the experience did not know, I would in the second I would put in my mouth...

hmmm coming to think of it, there is a possibility. One could do 2 equal dosages A and B. A would just receive powdered mushies inside gelatin caps. The other, B would be the dried extract of a lemon or vinegar extraction. I would not be told what I receive and evaluate the experience for myself. And on another occasion take the other set of capsules ... Maybe this could work. With some other people doing that, one would be sure, and dispel, or not(!), an urban myth.

 

[Ismene]

Hi Ismene


I had this discussion some years ago at the DMT-Nexus many times. It was always like this: someone was complaying on how pharmahuasca would make them puke. And I always suggested them to add some vinegar until the freebase dissolved and without exception, for all who tried it, he nausea was always severely reduced. There are 2 types of nausea on DMT. The first one by taking the substance as soon as it arrives on the stomach and then after it starts its effects. The latter is a "brain induced nausea" like in sea-sickness. This is unavoidable, but passes quickly. The first nausea is quite avoidable or minimized if we take it salted.

Yeah, not sure about vinegar but I did try the coca-cola method which was less nauseating the first few times I tried it but then you start getting nauseous from the smell of the coca-cola.

I'm not discussing the transformation of psilocybin to psilocyn, but rather the chemical release of psilocybin from the mushroom organic matter.

If you've powderised the dried shrooms would soaking them make much difference tho? I'm supposing you've already pretty much broken down the mushroom matter already.

When one does extractions like extracting DMT from mimosa, one always add acid (like vinegar, or HCl), to release the DMT that is bound to the tannins, and thus make it more readily soluble. If you do not do that, your yields will be dismal.

So you don't believe in the straight to base extraction tek? My yields have been pretty dismal I must admit!


However to get a similar expereince to 40 mg DMT, I need *at least* 5 grams of mimosa, if ingested raw

Interesting - wonder how the body handles raw mimosa compared to extracted DMT.

hmmm coming to think of it, there is a possibility

Not knowing what you're taking really does make a massive difference. I remember having truffles in one jar in the freezer and standard cubensis in the other. I was absolutely convinced for years that the truffles didn't give you as "visual" a trip as the standard cubies. They wern't as strong or as potent. Then I took what I thought were the standard cubies and had the most visual, powerful mushroom trip of my life.. and you guessed it..I went back and checked the freezer and realised I'd taken truffles...so I'm very familiar with the placebo effect - once you believe something going into a trip it's difficult to change.

 

[Rorthron]

Hi again Ismene

When one does extractions like extracting DMT from mimosa, one always add acid (like vinegar, or HCl), to release the DMT that is bound to the tannins, and thus make it more readily soluble. If you do not do that, your yields will be dismal.

So you don't believe in the straight to base extraction tek? My yields have been pretty dismal I must admit!

we are getting away from the topic., but the STB teks are completely different. The idea is to elevate the pH to at least 10.0 , so that the DMT is released from the tannins and goes directly into freebase form, which is then dissolved in the polar solvent. AB teks first release the DMT by turning it into a soluble salt, which, after liberated from the plant matter is then basified to convert it into freebase, and then dissolved in a polar solvent as above. So STB is OK and I've heard of good yields from it (never used it myself), but it works because it releases the DMT directly into freebase, precipitating the tannins. High pH does not occur in our GI tract, so it is not an option for extracting alkaloids.

 

[2c-goinsane]

ismene, i dont think it makes them all that much powerful now that iv thought about it more, could totally be placebo and my surroundings at the time of each lemon tek come up. was even thinking the mushrooms i have could just be really good and im just tripping really hard on mushrooms.

I will be eating a good amount of the same strain iv been lemon teching this weekend dry to see if theres that really big of a difference, i want to see if its just me which it really could be after reading your truffle experience, and knowing about experience's similiar to that. i also understand that just by telling someone it will make a difference could effect them mentally into thinking it makes a huge difference when they start tripping really nicely.