Mixing MDMA and methamphetamine - or using on alternate days?

[Pickledlemons]

Oxygen just makes the combustion point of other things reduce, it's not flammable at all.

Yes we have already established that a number of times. The point is that if you mix two different chemicals together, they react and create something new, do you deny that?

The molecular structure for mdma literally contains the entire structure of meth, so he's right even semantically.

Okay he's right... semantically, but not practically. Mdma has none of the properties of meth. It has very little dopamine activity if any, meth produces an insane amount of dopamine release. It works by a totally different mechanism. A new user could read that and get the wrong idea.

 

[Frazzled1990]

I concede that I should have worded that statement better. Oxygen is flammable, just not on its own, its used in rocket fuel. Even your car uses oxygen for combustion. But thats not the point, the point is the very foundation of your original statement is false and misleading.... Even you admit that chemicals change properties when mixed with other chemicals which means you have contradicted the very foundation of your original comment... so you must know deep down that statement was misleading, so why don't you concede that so new users don't get the wrong impression and we can all move on. What do you say?

I would concede if it was wrong in this particular case, but it's not. Methamphetamine is active within the MDMA compound structure. I do concede that this isn't always the case, but it is the case here. Just because you drop an apple in water, doesn't stop it from being an apple.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I would concede if it was wrong in this particular case, but it's not. Methamphetamine is active within the MDMA compound structure. I do concede that this isn't always the case, but it is the case here. Just because you drop an apple in water, doesn't stop it from being an apple.

Well that is just plain wrong. I really don't know how else to explain to you that chemical reactions create chemicals with different properties than their constituents. An apple and water are stable compounds that have no reason to react. You can't just take the rules of the large and apply them to the small. The universe doesn't work like that. Atoms and individual molecules behave differently than planets and solar systems, same goes for your apple in water.

 

[Frazzled1990]

Yes we have already established that a number of times. The point is that if you mix two different chemicals together, they react and create something new, do you deny that?



Okay he's right... semantically, but not practically. Mdma has none of the properties of meth. It has very little dopamine activity if any, meth produces an insane amount of dopamine release. It works by a totally different mechanism. A new user could read that and get the wrong idea.

This is incorrect. Dopamine and Norepinephrine levels are greatly elevated along with Serotonin levels. The active Methamphetamine component contained within MDMA allows MDMA to make it's way up through the Dopamine and Norepinephrine reuptake channels, where by it then occupies the pre-synaptic vesicle spaces containing these neurotransmitters, effectively stimulating their release. Once this effect occurs, the reuptake channels are then subsequently blocked to prevent these neurotransmitters from escaping the synaptic clefts.

 

[Pickledlemons]

This is incorrect. Dopamine and Norepinephrine levels are greatly elevated along with Serotonin levels. The active Methamphetamine component contained within MDMA allows MDMA to make it's way up through the Dopamine and Norepinephrine reuptake channels, where by it then occupies the pre-synaptic vesicle spaces containing these neurotransmitters, effectively stimulating their release. Once this effect occurs, the reuptake channels are then subsequently blocked to prevent these neurotransmitters from escaping the synaptic clefts.

If mdma releases a similar amount of dopamine as meth than can you explain the completely different effects profile?

Its usually pretty easy to sleep 3-6 hours after taking mdma, thats not the case with meth. A single dose of meth will generally keep a new user up an entire night and sometimes even two. There is some variation in this of course, everyone is different, but still the difference is stark.

You can use meth every weekend and chase squirrels every time, you may lose some of the euphoria but you will still get high. But you can't do that with mdma, over time the effects will diminish because it works primarily on a different set of receptors than replenish by a different mechanism.

Regular meth use reliably causes hallucinations and psychosis, whereas with regular mdma use this does not happen and it just loses effectiveness because it works primarily on a different set of receptors. There are always outliers of course, but this is generally the case.

How come you don't see many mdma addicts? Because serotonin is not as closely linked to our reward centers as dopamine, which is released in much great quantities with meth. If mdma is just meth plus a serotonin release, you think you would see more addicts.

The idea that meth is simply one of many 'ingredients' in mdma is just wrong. MDMA is its own drug, with its own effects and its own set of properties. just because its methylenedioxy-METHAMPHETAMINE doesn't make it methamhetamine in the same way that sodium-CHLORIDE isn't chlorine, its table salt.

 

[Frazzled1990]

If mdma releases a similar amount of dopamine as meth.

At no point did I claim that MDMA releases a similar amount of Dopamine as pure Methamphetamine used at comparable doses. However, your suggestion that MDMAs mode of action is completely different to that of Methamphetamine is simply incorrect. MDMAs initial route of action by entering pre-synaptic neurons through Dopamine and Norepinephrine reuptake channels, simply wouldn't be possible without an active Methamphetamine component. The reason MDMA's duration of action is much shorter is due to it's additional reuptake inhibition effects. Amine neurotransmitters deplete much more quickly when they're blocked off from re-entering pre-synaptic vesicle storage spaces.

Regular and persistent MDMA use certainly can lead to hallucinations and psychosis and people do get addicted to them. The reason you don't hear much about MDMA addiction these days is because most people who get hooked on MDMA tend to make the step up to pure Methamphetamine instead. Dopamine, Norepinephrine and Serotonin receptors are all implicated in MDMA and stand alone Methamphetamine use.

 

[Pickledlemons]

MDMA already contains Methamphetamine, hence the "MA".

Adding more Methamphetamine into the mix is unlikely to lead to Serotonin Syndrome

You said adding more methamphetamine to the mix is xxx, that implied to me that you think that taking mdma means you are already taking meth.

At no point did I claim that MDMA releases a similar amount of Dopamine

But wait, I thought mdma was taking meth... if that was the case, why wouldn't it effect the brain in the same way PLUS additional effect?

Maybe you can explain this to me because it sounds contradictory. Are you denying that adding two chemicals together changes their properties?

 

[f1mula0ne]

MDMA already contains Methamphetamine, hence the "MA".

Adding more Methamphetamine into the mix is unlikely to lead to Serotonin Syndrome, as the predominant neurotransmitters that Methamphetamine will stimulate the release of are Dopamine and Norepinephrine. MDMA combined with Tryptophan is more likely to lead to Serotonin Syndrome. Although Tryptophan can be useful during the come down as it will help to restore Serotonin levels after the crash.

MDMA doesn't contain methamphetamine....it's a completely different molecule...

 

[Goodwalt]

How does this have anything to do with the topic again?