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[MEGA] God v.2

Thank you MDAO :) I'm glad to know I'm welcome! These disscussions are very interesting.

I think many athiests (I am NOT refering to Entilx or anyone else on here!) hold the assumption that religious folks don't have a proper grasp on logic or science. I've found here that there are many spirtiual individuals who are FAR more intelligent and educated than myself, and I don't think that belief in a deity makes a person crazy or stupid.

You know, if I had an expierence with something seemingly supernatural, I don't know what I'd think. Yeah, in a lot of cases I believe people misinterpret what they hear\see\ or otherwise sense... and I agree with Entlix that other options should be explored before immediately concluding that a mystic force is the cause. But at the same time, who am I to say that it didn't really happen? I don't know.

I don't know if this is a fair comparison, but I think a lot of expierences are interpreted differently depending on how open you are to them. For example, my friends and I encounted a licensed hypontist one night at a random party (weird, huh?) Anyways, people were asking to be hypnotized left and right, and two of my girls swore up and down that he could really do it. Well, I was skeptical (because I am always a skeptic) so I asked him to do it to me. He asked me to close my eyes and began doing his thing.. I felt nothing. After 10 minutes of him trying to get me to "go under" or whatever, I just had to walk away. I'm not saying I don't believe that hyponsis is possible, but I wonder if the reason it worked on others but not me was because I wasn't open to it?? Perhaps its the same reason I've never had any kind of religious inclination?
 
Impacto Profundo said:
Cry me a river. No one else here is treating you with anywhere near as much disrespect as you constantly have shown others. If you don't like how the majority here discuss things, then you know where the door is.
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I wasn't the one who was crying in the first place, all you guys were. But I have already made my point on this issue.

Impacto Profundo said:
Your crusade is as pathetic as that idiot Richard Dawkins'. Sure he's brilliant in his field and i have enjoyed his books on evolution, but as soon as he overstepped his bounds and started talking about religion, he has really displayed his complete lack of understanding on the matter.
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Just because someone doesen't attribute very unprobable explanations to very common events doesen't mean that they don't understand. The schizophrenic example does apply, and pretty much what you have clung to is the idea that just because I don't believe in supernatural explanations means that I don't understand. Again, more educated people tend to not use supernatural explanations, but I do understand how you could use these ideas as an easy way to explain something if you don't really look into it.

Impacto Profundo said:
Stick to what you know. Neither of you have any idea on the matter being discussed in this thread. The schizophrenic analogy you spurt doesn't fly as that is a very different situation.
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I know how the brain works, hence I know just as much about this as you do.

All you have done is say "Well hey, this is what I believe, not matter how much it flies in the face of rational explanations, but since you haven't experienced or don't believe in it, you just don't know man". So before the advent of modern medicine, if a schizophrenic was describing his visions, he could use the exact same cop out you are using. It is a really bad way of trying to evaluate what is actually happening in this world.

You still haven't answered my question about how you could possibly know how something is going to affect telekinesis if you have no clue about the mechanism in the first place.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
Very good post, Thai Dye. Your kind of atheist is quite welcome here.

Enlitx, I'm willing to request that the warning be removed, if you're willing to follow our rules, and respect beliefs (and the holders of those beliefs) other than your own. Deal?
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You mean the rules that all these other people have been breaking, yet you haven't said a word to them? You can remove the warning if you want, but you need to display some integrity in how you apply the "rules" to everyone.
 
^ I try my best to step in whenever I see someone getting flamed for their point of view. If you'd like to quote me the offending posts, I'd be happy to have a chat with the posters involved.
 
Enlitix, I have skimmed over this thread and I have not seen anyone flaming you. They were simply disagreeing with you with the same tone you used to provoke them.

As you've seen, I am neutral in this thread, and therefore I hope you trust that my judgement is impartial.

Please try not to be too sensitive. Like IP said, you have a Dawkins problem. You aspire to step on toes that don't really need to be stepped on.

Just try to be respectful and don't pretend you are more than what you are - just another pathetic human like me and he and everyone else.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
^ I try my best to step in whenever I see someone getting flamed for their point of view. If you'd like to quote me the offending posts, I'd be happy to have a chat with the posters involved.
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Well, here are a few I got just from five seconds of scanning.

LivingInTheMoment said:
with the only stupid tool of"prove it with
his need for attention and desperation
his scummy behavior
you are an extremely lonely individual
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ImpactoProfundo said:
How dumb do you have to be to still be to think this
Your crusade is as pathetic as that idiot Richard Dawkins'
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opy said:
do you even read what you are writing?
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Another poster noticed enough to say:
FrostyMcFailure said:
theres no need to be a doosch bag guys.
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It is pretty odd that you were able to read my stuff enough to jump all over me but completely ignored everyone else.
 
Jamshyd said:
Enlitix, I have skimmed over this thread and I have not seen anyone flaming you. They were simply disagreeing with you with the same tone you used to provoke them.

As you've seen, I am neutral in this thread, and therefore I hope you trust that my judgement is impartial.

Please try not to be too sensitive. Like IP said, you have a Dawkins problem. You aspire to step on toes that don't really need to be stepped on.

Just try to be respectful and don't pretend you are more than what you are - just another pathetic human like me and he and everyone else.
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If you haven't seen it, you haven't been looking. I just posted some examples.

And dude, I am not sensitive. I really don't care what people are saying to me, as I have already stated more than once. That was never the issue. I was just upset that I was warned and lectured from MyDoorsAreOpen while everyone else got a free pass. If it was up to me, people should be able to say whatever they want.
 
Enlitx said:
Well, here are a few I got just from five seconds of scanning.







Another poster noticed enough to say:


It is pretty odd that you were able to read my stuff enough to jump all over me but completely ignored everyone else.
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QUOTED>

Originally Posted by LivingInTheMoment View Post
with the only stupid tool of"prove it with
his need for attention and desperation
his scummy behavior
you are an extremely lonely individual

Please, if you are going to take parts of from old posts, to prove what you are trying to prove, then have the decency to add your comments to which the answers appied to, and all your attacks and downputs. Place the mumber of the posts where these are so we can find them easily, and the number of the page.
Thanks
 
I wasn't pissed about what you said, for the 50th time. I was trying to get the mods off my back.
 
Enlitx, thank you. I agree, some of those comments you quoted were out of line. I'll be in touch with the appropriate parties.

LivingintheMoment, read my private message to you.
 
Enlitx said:
Just because someone doesen't attribute very unprobable explanations to very common events doesen't mean that they don't understand. The schizophrenic example does apply, and pretty much what you have clung to is the idea that just because I don't believe in supernatural explanations means that I don't understand. Again, more educated people tend to not use supernatural explanations, but I do understand how you could use these ideas as an easy way to explain something if you don't really look into it.
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You don't have to believe what we are talking about to have an understanding of it. You have demonstrated you lack of understanding with comments like this:

I know how the brain works, hence I know just as much about this as you do.
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There is more to one than the brain. I know you disagree with this, and that is fine.


All you have done is say "Well hey, this is what I believe, not matter how much it flies in the face of rational explanations, but since you haven't experienced or don't believe in it, you just don't know man". So before the advent of modern medicine, if a schizophrenic was describing his visions, he could use the exact same cop out you are using. It is a really bad way of trying to evaluate what is actually happening in this world.
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You do not even understand my simple objections. this assessment is incorrect. You have demonstrated (as above) that you are incapable of understanding this topic. It is not because you don't believe it. That would be stupid of me to say.


You still haven't answered my question about how you could possibly know how something is going to affect telekinesis if you have no clue about the mechanism in the first place.
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and you have yet to prove the existence of radiation using only a spatula. it's funny the points you've repeatedly chosen to ignore to further your own agenda.

besides, i never said that i KNOW anything about the mechanisms of telekinesis. I was up front about this. i speculated as to one possible mechanism using logic. to repeat: being as how we are talking about mental influence on the physical world, then it would make sense that the presence of incredulous thoughts may counter the ability.
 
LivingInTheMoment said:
Read on top of the page>it is called:Phylosophy and Spirituality>I take it you have none to relate!
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Actually it says "philosophy and spirituality".......you do know that some of the most widely read works of philosophical writing were done by atheists right?

We have:

Engels
Hume
Lenin
Marx
Nietzsche
Rand
Russell
Kant

We belong here just like everybody else. Attack the ideas by all means....feel free.
 
Impacto Profundo said:
You don't have to believe what we are talking about to have an understanding of it. You have demonstrated you lack of understanding with comments like this:

There is more to one than the brain. I know you disagree with this, and that is fine.
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What I meant by that is that since all you have are subjective experiences with no mechanistic explanation or understanding, my own understanding of how the brain works and finds patterns would be on equal footing with your subjective experience. Some people would even say that subjective experiences are less of an understanding than an objective understanding of a process, but I was just giving the benefit of the doubt.


Impacto Profundo said:
You do not even understand my simple objections. this assessment is incorrect. You have demonstrated (as above) that you are incapable of understanding this topic. It is not because you don't believe it. That would be stupid of me to say.
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How is the assessment incorrect? How is it different than a schizophrenic?


Impacto Profundo said:
and you have yet to prove the existence of radiation using only a spatula. it's funny the points you've repeatedly chosen to ignore to further your own agenda.

besides, i never said that i KNOW anything about the mechanisms of telekinesis. I was up front about this. i speculated as to one possible mechanism using logic. to repeat: being as how we are talking about mental influence on the physical world, then it would make sense that the presence of incredulous thoughts may counter the ability.
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I never claimed anything about measuring radiation with a spatula. You claimed that something will affect telekinesis. Your last part right there is a good example of why I have such a problem with all of these ideas. That is such a broad and arbitrary statement, it is just too easy and requires too little work to come to that conclusion. It is almost like saying "Well, that is a voice activated code, so just talking should open it". It is based on nothing, not derived from any mechanism, and could be made up by anyone after 0.5 seconds of thinking. It literally means nothing since it is so damn vague.
 
Enlitx said:
How is the assessment incorrect? How is it different than a schizophrenic?
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I was referring to your assessment of my reasons you don't understand.


I never claimed anything about measuring radiation with a spatula.
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By claiming that if any of these phenomena were real then they would be quantifiable with both logic and scientific instruments is equivalent to trying to measure radiation with a spatula. This is the point i've been making over and over.

You claimed that something will affect telekinesis. Your last part right there is a good example of why I have such a problem with all of these ideas. That is such a broad and arbitrary statement, it is just too easy and requires too little work to come to that conclusion. It is almost like saying "Well, that is a voice activated code, so just talking should open it". It is based on nothing, not derived from any mechanism, and could be made up by anyone after 0.5 seconds of thinking. It literally means nothing since it is so damn vague.
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No, actually the assertion i've made is quite specific. Despite the lack of a physical mechanism, the very definition of telekinesis is still "the influence of the mind on a physical object". Can we get an agreement there?

If not, then please correct me.

If so, then it's actually quite logical to suggest that the presence of another mind nearby, one exerting a skeptical "thought pattern" (for the lack of a better phrase), may counteract the ability.

Picture two men standing near a wheel. One claims that with their arms they can turn the wheel clockwise. The other claims that they cannot and asks for proof, but when the first man attempts to turn the wheel, the second man applies an equal amount of force in the counterclockwise direction.

This is the same thing. A skeptic's refusal to believe "until they see it" (and possibly not even then) may inadvertently apply this opposite force, ironically using the ability that they refuse to consider.

Let me be clear: this is not fact. This is merely something i consider a possibility.
 
I was born into a very religious Jewish home (Breslov Hassidic as it is caled in English). Until I was 11 I had never even met anyone but very religious Jews but it was not until age 16 in the army that I was truly exposed to other ways of looking at life.

The army (IDF) was very hard on religion in those days (1983) and so within a few months I was living a completely secular life.

It was then that I began to question everything. At 17 I was wounded 2 times. Beginning with the first wounding I used the time off from combat to study religions. Being treated in Jerusalem allowed me some unique opportunities.

As I went through Catholic, Eastern Orthadoxy, and eventually Islam I would find myself being atracted to this and that aspect of each faith. These attractions drove me to research in depth and upon heading north back into Lebanon I took materiel to read, and continued my searching.

Eventualy, when I turned 20 I began my secular education and in studying science for the first time I discovered myself even doubting the existence of G-D. I even considered myself an atheist for a good year.

I saw the thing you imagine one sees in war, and could not wrap my mind around it. Atheism seemed to make so much sense at that point but then I began moving the other way.

Man comes from monkey, from yada, yad and yada but when we get to that first burst in Space, where did IT come from? No scientist can even offer an idea on that. That does not "prove" the existence of G-D but it is some damn strong circumstantial evidence.

They tell us space is boundless, timeless...what they mean though, is that they acknowledge that the question makes their intellect entirely worthless. All their reliance on empirical thought, on "proof" goes up in smoke. They argue that there just cannot be any Theistic truth!

I have been reading Christopher Hitchens' "Atheist Reader" as of late and I get a huge kick out of his "scathing" essays that show Theism to be the foolish outlook it certainly is.

Dawkins tells us in his most recent book that he is the "foremost" proponent of Atheism and yet their arguments could be shattered by any 10 year Jewish boy traditionally raised!

I am utterly thankful for my life's journey and I truly believe ALL people should truly seek, but seek by delving incredibly deep. In this way they will have no choice but to see G-D in all HIS brillance. The problem of course is that almost all will only dig at the surface and imagine they know something when they still have not learned a thing.
 
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