In Reference to Stuffmongers TAN thread
I think I've pretty much got it figured out. I've been doing massive research on every possible chemical interaction that could possibly occur during Stuffmonger's recipe to changing what was originally thought to be freebase, and then instead thought to be a chemical that had been altered...And it is quite possible (I am near about 100% that it is indeed a 'different' chemical...but probably not how you think).
For days now I've been running over all of this information in my head over and over and over. About 10 minutes ago, I realized something so simple and tiny that it pretty much put the pieces together.
I also want to make mention that following a very similar method as Stuffmonger's (and with a mistake right near the end, but it still worked out) I ended up with the tan except it was in NaCl form. I can confirm that the effects are quite different (similar but different, if that makes sense - obviously a very different feel).
So it starts (assuming it's the right thing to begin with) as:
C16H21NO3- HCl+
The plus and minus signs are important.
Even though those are linked together, they are still two different molecules. And the HCI+ is not flammable. If you've ever watched it being heated as is you can see the two chemicals seperate into a crispy looking HCI+ and A very oily looking C16H21NO3- that quickly burns. Heated administration is only providing freebase as the HCl stays behind in this method. The C16H21NO3 that is left behind will eventually evaporate, but being clogged up in black HCl seems to slow that process down immensely.
So, based on that it seems pretty evident that the TAN (not the tan
) is not C16H21NO3- as that clearly has the same effect as the same with the HCl+
However...When C16H21NO3- is Oxidized one more electron is placed into the chemical, which turns it into a tan, often clumpy sort of powder whose name is:
C16H21NO3+
which would also be freebase MDPV - the same chemical, except not. Anyone that knows a decent amount about chemistry probably knows that there are actually many chemicals that can have the same molecular structure (or at least almost identical). You've got isomers (mirror images of the same chemical structure), You've got + and - (positive and negative - based on the electrons and protons), and I want to say there is one more pair, but it eludes me right now. The important thing to know is that because of these incredibly subtle changes you can have multiple variations of the same basic chemical - in some cases they may have the same or similar behaviors - but in many other cases these almost identical chemicals can have drastically different characteristics.
Now there are still some things I'm trying to figure out about entire process of changing the PV- to PV+ .
I'm pretty certain (not 100% though) that both H2O and O2 are required for this to happen (for PV specifically), although it could be quite possible that it just requires O2 and any other chemical that can keep the unstable PV- stable long enough for oxidation to occur.
I'd like to figure out if the HCl has to be separated for oxidation to occur (although, why wouldn't someone want to get rid of that). I think it does, but only because leaving pv-hcl out won't tan it...but adding just a little bit of water and letting it dry.....over and over and over....will eventually cause some tan/brown spots to appear. And with enough coverage a small but evident difference has been noticed. It's like taking just enough tan to do something and adding it to white I guess you could say, but hardly worth the effort - it takes a long time, just for a mildly noticeable change.
I've been dying to get to my computer to type this up....I was really actually quite excited when I realized what was happening chemically to the original structure by just placing it under heat.
I know that this doesn't answer better/faster/more reliable ways to go from white to tan - but I bet it can make coming up with alternatives easier, having a better understanding of certain parts of the process currently being tested.
Oh, and one more thing - when I first started looking for information about boiling pv- the oxidation was one of the first things I came across (and totally forgot about until it started becoming evident that the tan was probably something 'different.' Anyway when I read about the oxidation (I so wish I could remember where it was I found that - I hate when I find valuable information before I know that a few days later I'll take a much bigger interest in the topic), the article mentioned that 'maybe' there was a bigger chemical change to...some..all...I really can't remember of the pv- than just the added electron, but also a transformation to another molecule that starts with a P. I know, really helpful right :/ . But still might get someone the start they need to find all of the right answers.
I truly hope this helps at least 1 person with their research and studies. I've learned a lot in the last few days, and had quite a bit of fun doing the research, and testing different theories.
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). Please, mods, keep this thread easy to find for us peevee-addled types.