List of Nbome deaths

[kidklmx]

Those >200ug blotters aren't really what the masses get their hands on, and 1 hit of that is more than enough for most. Hell, 2 of those is a hefty dose already. Wouldn't you imagine there being a ton more freak outs if every single blotter would be >200ug? That's a good chunk of the NBOMe problem right there, >1mg blotters being sold as if that's a normal dose.

Also, 1mg too much is a slight overdose? Returning to my 4-Aco-DMT analogy, if I accidentally took 40mg instead of 20mg then regardless of being experienced, I'm going to have a bad time (or a really good one depending on a multitude of factors)

Again, not saying the NBOMes are as safe as LSD, but you're expecting this chemical to be safer than LSD. Most of my experience has been with 25C, and 500ug is really different from 300ug. 700ug is really different from 500ug. I don't see why 200ug increments with a potent psychedelic gives a dangerous dose-response curve.

Anon: Yeah, but 2C-B is still structurally similar to Mescaline. It's not that the compounds aren't "natural", that's some of the biggest bullcrap in drug culture right now, but that the vendors have to stray further from known safe structures to circumvent the law. E.g 2C-B is benign on the body, Bromo-Dragonfly is definitely not.* Not saying no good ones will pop up, but the chances of a good one popping up are getting slimmer. Which is why I said "until we figure out the human body", because once we do that, then sure as hell we're going to have strange compounds that are much better than what we have right now.

And you can't deny that the general trend with newer chemicals is that they're getting shittier and shittier. But let's leave this discussion at that because 1) I agree and 2) this discussion has been made a gazillion times before

*No, Bromo-Dragonfly was not designed for the market, but vendors will pick up on those chemicals because of analog acts and all

 

[Phototrophic]

Those >200ug blotters aren't really what the masses get their hands on, and 1 hit of that is more than enough for most. Hell, 2 of those is a hefty dose already. Wouldn't you imagine there being a ton more freak outs if every single blotter would be >200ug?

Freak-outs - yes. Seizures, convulsions - no. Also, we don't hear much about people inflicting death upon themselves by banging their head against hard surfaces or jumping out the window when on a hefty dose of LSD, despite the fact that countless hefty doses have been had by people over the seventy years that it's been available.

Clearly there's something about the NBOMEs that steers a significant number of people towards delirious, out-of-control states during an overdose. It would be much more interesting to embrace the fact and try to figure out what causes it instead of dismissing this phenomenon by drawing comparisons with LSD freakouts, which tend to have comparatively mild consequences.

 

[kidklmx]

Mushrooms are banned in my country because a girl jumped off a bridge on them*, like Seikio said, reckless behavior is not unheard of with "the classics". If everyone was eating huge doses of LSD, then surely you'd hear more about idiotic casualties with LSD. And don't forget, seizures actually do happen with other psychedelics.

Also you shouldn't discount the amount of people taking an NBOMe, there's a reason why every single vendor in existence is selling them you know? You're trying to figure out what is causing these reactions? The fact that insane dosages are mass-marketed towards uneducated users. (no offense to the OP of that thread)

I'm all for safe drug use, and if someone provides any evidence that the NBOMe freak-outs are different from other psychedelics then I'm all ears. I just don't think that's true and I do acknowledge there are other issues with the NBOMes, e.g potency, tolerance and possible allergies that occur with more people than other chemicals. Maybe because of a missing enzyme, or because of something weird about full-agonism. Why not look at those issues instead?

*This really happened, not some sad dad who can't accept his daughter committed suicide or something

EDIT: Am I really that delusional with my reasoning? Feels like I'm making a fair argument, and I'm not trying to sweet-talk these chemicals. I do enjoy them, mainly because they're the most recreational of all the psychedelics I own currently (not for long though, 4-HO-MET coming in ), but they're not perfect. Which is not what I'm saying anyway.

 

[Incunabula]

Well, the problem with the NBOMe's isn't that people jump of bridges or do stupid things, that happens with all drugs, even alcohol which is legal. The problem is that quite a lot of people have died in just the 3 years they have been available from just the drug it self. And even if it's just because people grossly overdosed (which we don't know in every case) then it's definitely not a very forgiving compound, even though you are right about the dose/response curve.

But no, I do see your point, with proper responsible dosing they are probably quite safe for you Still some people seem to be allergic to them, and overdoses seems to have more a much more dangerous "physical" side to it. A side that mushrooms or LSD doesn't have at all. I know for sure what I'd choose to have an accidental overdose on anyway, and it's not 25I. it's much more stimulating than most tryptamines and lysergamides. You must feel that too? Sure, 2C-I is probably just as stimulating, but it's not as potent. And yeah, I wouldn't want to OD on that either.

Just go and read the trainwreack section on erowid.

And the analogy with MDMA that Ismene made doesn't hold water either, sooooo many much more people have taken MDMA the last 20-30 years than NBOMe has been ingested since it got put for sale just 3 years ago. And sure MDMA can kill, but so can ketchup if you just eat enough of it. And who said it was safe as milk anyway? it's a stimulant, it's obviously rough on the heart.

And about the acid, I just don't agree we'd see more freak outs if there were more blotters over 200 ug (which there are plenty of, but okay, who knows how much there really is in them papers? right?)

You're right the argument can go on for ever. I think that if you like to trip on it, then definitely keep it up, but don't fool yourself that it's as safe to OD on an NBOMe, than say........mushrooms.

 

[proxopata]

Hi guys I was wondering if 25B nbome is also as dangerous as 25I I felt no body load and no vaso constriction at all at 1000ug I think even pushing it to 1500 ug wouldnt be too bad.

 

[bagochina]

Too many idiots out there for this drug, obviously.

 

[Reverend Random]

I’m referring of course to the relative ease of measurement error associated with ultra-low recreational doses, but also the extreme tolerance inducing effects that make safe titration a patience-trying prospect for many – tolerance that can revert to normal levels at times that can be difficult to predict or reliably recall to properly adjust for. There also seems to be far higher variability in what people need for recreational effects, which could be leading to some people with a high base tolerance using their preferred dose on their far more sensitive friends/customers. For instance, Erny reported the case of a girl taking a dose of 25-b that was within fairly common dosage ranges who ended up in the hospital not breathing.

This is good, solid harm reduction advice for any new chemical on the market and especially for the NBOMes. I think this should be emphasized more often.

If most RC psychedelics are single-shot black powder rifles then NBOMes are sort of like safety-less, hair-trigger, high-capacity Uzis filled with Eagle Claw bullets and holstered in the front waistbands of a kids with itchy crotches.

Nice, if somewhat 'American' metaphor, cowboy.

Mushrooms are banned in my country because a girl jumped off a bridge on them*, like Seikio said, reckless behavior is not unheard of with "the classics". If everyone was eating huge doses of LSD, then surely you'd hear more about idiotic casualties with LSD.
*This really happened, not some sad dad who can't accept his daughter committed suicide or something.

Actually, not it didn't. At least, it's never been proven. Interesting, isn't it? Never made the headlines... but it wasn't proven by the coroner that she was under the influence of mushrooms when she committed suicide. What is known is that she had pre-existing mental issues before coming to the Netherlands.

I'm all for safe drug use, and if someone provides any evidence that the NBOMe freak-outs are different from other psychedelics then I'm all ears. I just don't think that's true and I do acknowledge there are other issues with the NBOMes, e.g potency, tolerance and possible allergies that occur with more people than other chemicals. Maybe because of a missing enzyme, or because of something weird about full-agonism. Why not look at those issues instead?

EDIT: Am I really that delusional with my reasoning? Feels like I'm making a fair argument, and I'm not trying to sweet-talk these chemicals.

As much as I feel that you usually talk sense, I disagree. The fact that a chemical is causing deaths should be cause for alarm. Period. It's not just that they're causing freak-outs, it's the fact that they are a highly potent and little studied substance, sold as pre-dosed blotters ('everybody knows that a blotter is one dose') with moderate to high dosages that cause strong psychedelic experiences that cannot be tolerated equally well by everyone, both physiologically and psychologically. Idiosyncratic reactions happen anyway on psychedelics and apparently (but maybe not) more so with this class of chemicals, add also the steep and irregular dose-response curve - again, very little knowledge on the subject - and also that they're sold as something they're not and of which has been proven that it's physiologically very safe.

Sure, the fact that they're ubiquitous plays a role here, but I think that arguing that this might happen with any other substance isn't the issue here. The fact is that it's happening with the NBOMes and that we know very little about it is enough reason for me to stay well away. I am not judging anyone who's experimenting and Shulguinea-pigging these things, but don't forget that it's just that. You have no idea what you're putting in your body, what the acute, short-term, long-term and potentially irreversible effects may be on your mind, body and general well being.

I am probably sounding a bit moralistic right now, but I think that a lot of people are taking for granted that these things are pretty easily available and should thus be fine. Why not combine 2C-I-NBOMe with some AL-LAD, 4F-PVP, snort just a tiny line of methoxetamine and throw in a hint of 3-MeO-PCP in the mix and smoke a random synthetic cannabinoid to top it off. Can't sleep? Well, there's etizolam to knock you out. You can buy it from the internet, just like anything else you might want to buy, so it must be ok. Testing? How? Where? Why?

I'm exaggerating, but that's my point. Most people don't have any clue what they're doing and they're not even conscious of the fact. There's a reason I stick to the chemicals I know and that's because most of them have a pretty long and good track record. People do stupid shit regardless of warnings, good advice and a wealth of knowledge, but a forum like Bluelight dedicated to Harm Reduction should not take this lightly and I'm serious about it. You can be as sick and tired of the NBOMe-discussion as you like, but that doesn't change the fact that you're essentially in the dark here. When people are having serious adverse reactions, you can be critical of the anecdotes out there (which is always a good thing to do) or take them seriously (always good too) and heed them as a warning. I choose to be cautious and I would never stop advising anyone to do anything else.

[edit] Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would continue to post things like "Well yeah I took like 2 mg this one time and I was fine, no vasoconstriction nothing, so it's fine, I don't know what everybody's bugging about.". Your individual experience has no bearing on anyone else's personal experience. Remember, drug, set and setting and everything that implies? Good. It means something.

Your. Mileage. May. Fucking. Vary.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.[/rant]

 

[kidklmx]

That argument is perfectly valid, though I was just comparing to other chemicals for those saying the dose-response curve is insane. Because it isn't. Or that the freak outs are any different from other chemicals, because again, it isn't. Arguments like these are going to end up with things like every bad LSD trip being blamed on NBOMes rather than the wrong set/setting.

The idiosyncratic reactions are dangerous, yes, and these are only for people that are Shulguinnea-pigging (I'm gonna steal that one a lot more often ). What I was arguing was that if you know the dangers, keep tolerance and potency in mind, then for most, experienced users these are fine. Do an allergy test, work your way up, slowly. Learn everything there is to know before dosing. We're all pretending to be psychedelic explorers, it's what you should do for every chemical you try for the first time. If not for your safety, then to have a sense of what a chemical does for you. YMMFV indeed.

But that's not what everyone is doing, the hype is drawing in a lot of attention from uneducated people. Both uneducated distributors (high doses on blotter and other stupidities) and uneducated users, and these people will never care about proper usage. Just look at the NBOM-deaths page, almost ever case feels like there was something fishy going on, regardless of spotty media coverage.

And no fagott, I wouldn't want to OD on these either. Neither would I want to OD on MDMA. Much harder because you're not working with concentrated doses in solutions, but I don't see why it's absolutely a must for every psychedelic to be safe with dosages of upwards a hundred times a normal dose.

I wasn't talking about the NBOMe discussion when I said the discussion could go on and on and on, btw. That was more aimed at the synthetic vs natural discussion between Anon and me. The safety question is very valid, I'm just giving arguments on my views of this chemical. I think the conclusion of this thread should be that 1) Media needs to improve their coverage. I don't see how these people can call themselves journalists and look at themselves in the mirror without pure disgust and 2) There should be a ton more research on the safety of this chemical, not only in rats but in humans too

 

[ebola?]

Hi guys I was wondering if 25B nbome is also as dangerous as 25I I felt no body load and no vaso constriction at all at 1000ug I think even pushing it to 1500 ug wouldnt be too bad.

Which nbomes induce the greatest vasocontriction and body load is rather idiosyncratic. Assume nothing and titrate upward comparatively slowly.

ebola

 

[Incunabula]

That argument is perfectly valid, though I was just comparing to other chemicals for those saying the dose-response curve is insane. Because it isn't. Or that the freak outs are any different from other chemicals, because again, it isn't.

Yes, they are, or rather the psychological freak out might be the same, but the physical "freak out" isn't.

And no fagott, I wouldn't want to OD on these either. Neither would I want to OD on MDMA. Much harder because you're not working with concentrated doses in solutions, but I don't see why it's absolutely a must for every psychedelic to be safe with dosages of upwards a hundred times a normal dose.

Obviously, nobody want's to overdose on anything, the question is if the accident do happen (even the best pro's make mistakes) do you die, or do you just have a hell of a trip.

As I have already said, if you enjoy NBOMe's then go ahead and indulge (and I'm not even saying I wouldn't take one myself again either, I actually thought 25I was pretty fun) all I'm saying is that you shouldn't kid yourself that they are as safe as the "classics" because they just aren't!

How many Pharmacological fatalities do we have directly from 25I since it became available 3 years ago? More than any other psychedelic I know of in that time span.

I think the conclusion of this thread should be that 1) Media needs to improve their coverage. I don't see how these people can call themselves journalists and look at themselves in the mirror without pure disgust and 2) There should be a ton more research on the safety of this chemical, not only in rats but in humans too

I totally agree with you there


Partly related, check this trip report.
It's a guy who doesn't take more than 500 ug sublingual for his first trial. He nearly looses consciousness and his face turns very bright red, almost blue/purple!! His breathing was faint, and his heart seems to sky rocket. His friends brings him to the hospital, were he has to stay the next 5 days.

That's not like LSD, when did some one stop breathing and get a purple face the first time they took 150 ug? Sure, maybe you do see a psychological crise know and then with acid newbies, but nothing like this!

And so what dose will you give your friend who want's to try 25I for the first time?

200 ug is probably the right answer. I don't think many people would dose that low first time, I know I didn't. Tolerance would make you need to wait at least one week to dose again.

well, what ever :D I do think this discussion could go on for ever and ever.

edit:
spot on reverend Random, makes my post kind of redundant.

 

[kidklmx]

Okay final post, I'm not thinking these are anywhere near the safety of the classics, I never claimed as such. That's part of the problem, people thinking 2 1.1mg should be a good first dose and similar antics. I just think that with the right care and intelligence, these are in the safety ball-park of MDMA. Without it, these are worse, but again there is not much we can do against that. This is from experience, I've introduced a lot of people to this chemical (never sold it, just done it with others) and never once did anyone have a weird physical reaction and just once did someone have a freak out. There were also 2 ubersensitive people, and because we started low, they never ram in to issues. I know, that might mean nothing, but at least gives me an idea of the safety.

If my country was to take on RC laws like New Zealand and I was the one making the decisions if a chemical is safe or not, then I wouldn't recommend these chemicals. Still, be a sane person and these are fine 9/10 times

 

[Anon0631]

One huge problem appears to be a potency war between vendors. Whereas a year ago, people were selling 350μg 25c blotters, now they're selling 1mg doses. I know someone who used to lay NBOMe blotters and wholesale them to resellers. One of her customers said "why should I buy 350μg doses from you when I can buy blotters that are three times as strong from someone else". She said "that's exactly why you should buy them from me" and quit the business for good.

NBOMes are not like ecstasy. They do not benefit from the "stronger is better" rule.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

Exactly, a certain amount of responsibility needs to lie with the vendors as well as the customers.
Sure everyone should look up and see that 1mg is a very high dose for a first time, but the vendor should also realize that obviously not everyone is going to do that and at the very least advise their customers of how high of a dose 1mg is, but preferably sell less potent blotters.

 

[Anon0631]

Unfortunately we live in a world where products are designed for efficient sale not efficient consumption and vendors are too stupid to realise that when you apply this philosophy to NBOMes, you put lives at risk.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

Who cares as long as you get paid right?
They shouldn't be so dumb and realize that by putting out products than can be potentially lethal when used irresponsibly will draw attention to these chemicals leading to a ban.
You can't make money when the chemicals you're selling are illegal, I don't know of anyone selling black market NBOMe's

 

[my3rdeye]

I doubt the people selling NBOMe's for Bitcoins care about a ban. They are set up to continue business post ban, the only thing that will change is they will make more money. So many people getting their NBOMe's from there already when its still legal, seems to be the future actually. Legit vendors can be arrested or sued, the people who put 1.2 mg of NBOMe on a blotter and sell it there don't answer to anyone. A few years ago an RC could be banned and it became hard or impossible to get that drug again on the "street". Now you ban something and it is still for sale there. I think we are going to be living in an NBOMe world forever....

 

[Incunabula]

Okay final post, I'm not thinking these are anywhere near the safety of the classics, I never claimed as such. That's part of the problem, people thinking 2 1.1mg should be a good first dose and similar antics. I just think that with the right care and intelligence, these are in the safety ball-park of MDMA. Without it, these are worse, but again there is not much we can do against that. This is from experience, I've introduced a lot of people to this chemical (never sold it, just done it with others) and never once did anyone have a weird physical reaction and just once did someone have a freak out. There were also 2 ubersensitive people, and because we started low, they never ram in to issues. I know, that might mean nothing, but at least gives me an idea of the safety.

If my country was to take on RC laws like New Zealand and I was the one making the decisions if a chemical is safe or not, then I wouldn't recommend these chemicals. Still, be a sane person and these are fine 9/10 times

I totally get what you´re saying, just remember that accidental overdoses happen to the most experienced and carefull people too. Be sure to double check you dose, and then do it again one last time to be sure.

And btw, it was Seiko who said it probably was as safe as LSD, not you, it just got mixed up

 

[Reverend Random]

One huge problem appears to be a potency war between vendors. Whereas a year ago, people were selling 350μg 25c blotters, now they're selling 1mg doses. I know someone who used to lay NBOMe blotters and wholesale them to resellers. One of her customers said "why should I buy 350μg doses from you when I can buy blotters that are three times as strong from someone else". She said "that's exactly why you should buy them from me" and quit the business for good.

NBOMes are not like ecstasy. They do not benefit from the "stronger is better" rule.

That's very interesting and something I didn't know. It's really too bad it means that people like her quit the business, because the only ones left are the guys that started increasing potency to gain customers. Ugh, it makes me sad just to think about. I would think that's in everybody's interest to provide good information and plenty of harm reduction info to customers (after all, what good does it having hurt or even dead consumers for anyone?) but apparently, most are in it for the short-term profit and nothing else.

 

[kidklmx]

I totally get what you´re saying, just remember that accidental overdoses happen to the most experienced and carefull people too. Be sure to double check you dose, and then do it again one last time to be sure.

Haha when I got this (which was before all the news started popping up) I was so nervous I spent at least a week working out the calculations, and had a friend re-check them just to be sure. And even then you're not safe because of evaporation. If you're going to a festival, mark your containers!

 

[proxopata]

Come to think of it - Was there ANY SINGLE fatal Overdose of a person who EXACTLY KNEW what drug they were taking and WHAT EXACT DOSE they took?

Well If someone takes dozens of miligrams - snorting a line unaware, or takes 5mg's knowing how stron the shit, then no wonder they end up with seizures / dead ... other drugs can kill you too if you take too much or mix them wrong