cravNbeets
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well put reed! consider this issue sorted
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SPORTS
AND
GAMING -
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Sports & Gaming Moderators: ghostfreak
Is it STILL ridiculous to argue that Kobe . . .
- Thread starter L O V E L I F E
- Start date
smotpoker
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Bryant isn't a team player, which any coach will tell you is a much better quality than scoring 80 pts. The Lakers suck currently, and Bryant's selfishness has hurt his team much.
LeBron is only worthy of being called on a first name basis. Team player, not afraid to offer the assist, and his team is actually going somewhere. The Cav's are on the rise.
LeBron is only worthy of being called on a first name basis. Team player, not afraid to offer the assist, and his team is actually going somewhere. The Cav's are on the rise.
Like Mike, ohh, if I could be like Mike...
First off, let's get one thing out of the way. I'll freely admit that I am a Kobe detractor (one wonders how much of the "Kobe greatness" view is inspired by those who have a similar "MJ detractor" stance, but that's another issue). But let's remove the personal biases and look at the comparative stats/accolades/accomplishments of Kobe vs. Michael Jordan through the same periods of their careers to date (age 22-27, I'm removing Kobe's NBA stats/MJ's college stats for the purpose of objectivity...Kobe's first several NBA years really wouldn't help him in this discussion anyway, and mind you, remember Jordan sat out practically his entire second season due to injury):
MJ's Cumulative Stats, age 21-27 ('84-'85-'90)*
32.8 ppg 6.3 rpg 6.0 apg 2.78 spg 1.09 bpg 51.6% fgm 84.8% ftm 28.2% 3pm 3.27 topg
Kobe's Cumulative Stats, age 21-27 ('99-'00-present)*
27.8 ppg 5.9 rpg 5.3 apg 1.70 spg 0.63 bpg 45.4% fgm 83.8% ftm 33.6% 3pm 3.16 topg
*MJ's frame of reference only includes 6 seasons, Kobe's 7 because of birthdate issue/I couldn't break down MJ's midpoint season. If MJ's 7th season ('90-91) were included, the disparity would only worsen.
a) MJ was a better, more prolific and far more efficient scorer than Kobe during the compared periods. I might also add that despite the relevant period including ~70 less games for MJ than Kobe, he only shot 83 less free throws (MJ 4195 fta, KB 4278 fta, MJ also converted a higher % of them), indicating he was a more difficult player to guard despite double/triple teams with no Shaq to draw away pressure, and this was in the period before MJ began getting the "MJ benefit of the doubt" on the calls.
b) MJ was clearly a better defender during the period compared, averaging over 1 steal pg more and almost half a block pg more than Kobe, despite not having the defensive lane presence of a Shaq in his prime allowing him to gamble more defensively.
c) MJ was a better passer/had better all-around "basketball IQ" court awareness as evidenced by his averaging almost 1 assist pg more than KB during the period compared, again despite not having the offensive presence of a Shaq in his prime for much of Kobe's relevant period and therefore having to carry a heavier scoring burden.
d) MJ's turnovers are only negligibly higher than KB's during the relevant period (0.1 topg more), despite drawing greater defensive pressure due to no Shaq-like wingman presence for much of that time.
e) MJ was just as clutch as KB (if not moreso) in playoffs, sinking game-winning, series-clinching shot in Game 5 against Cavaliers in 1989 (I would add his game-winning shot in the '82 NCAA finals as a freshman, but I said I wouldn't consider MJ's college career).
Accolades:
MJ:
1 NBA MVP
1 Championship as the acknowledged #1 player on his team
4-time league leading scorer (consecutive seasons)
'87-'88 Defensive Player of Year (4th season in league)
3 consecutive years NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
63 points in a playoff game against the Celtics Dynasty in his 3rd season while being guarded by one of the other two acknowledged titans in the game at the time, Larry Bird, leading Bird to remark afterwards that it was "God disguised as Michael Jordan"
Kobe:
0 NBA MVP
3 Championships as an uber "Scottie Pippen" to Shaq's "Jordan", 0 Championships as the #1 player on his team
2 NBA All-Defensive 1st Team, 1 NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team
81 points in a regular season game against the Raptors, a non-playoff caliber Eastern Conference team
Moreover, Kobe has an additional self-imposed hurdle which only reduces the already infinitesimal chance that he will ever be considered "the greatest player ever": his public image is tarnished to the degree that almost no matter what he ever does to rehabilitate it, he will always be considered dislikeable. Despite any off-court troubles (some infidelity, gambling debts are rumored), MJ was (and still is) almost universally revered, as evidenced by his vast endorsement portfolio. If MJ could be called "His Airness", Kobe could perhaps best be called "His Primadonnaness". It's not even necessary to go into the rape/adultery smear to realize that for Kobe to be considered the greatest ever, merely equaling MJ's accomplishments (which as we've seen above, he's not even currently on pace to do) isn't even close to enough...he'd have to SUBSTANTIALLY exceed them, which ain't happening. Kobe's case for "the greatest" has been even more tainted and self-obstructed than Barry Bonds'.
The thing is, with some greats you just KNOW from watching them that they're the best ever. Take Tiger Woods. Despite my petty dislike of him initially because "he just made it look too easy", there's no doubt in my mind that he will eventually be considered the greatest ever in golf for a long time. Say what you want about Tiger not facing the caliber of competition that Jack faced (Palmer, Player, Trevino, Miller, Watson), the real reason is that Tiger just came out of the blocks and blew the entire field completely out of the water. He had no peers. It took 4-5 YEARS for a few other players, Vijay and now finally perhaps Mickelson, to ratchet their games up SEVERAL notches to provide Tiger legitimate competition.
Or Roger Federer. Barring career-threatening injury, there's no doubt in my mind that he will be considered the greatest tennis player ever for an appreciable period of time when his career is said and done. Much as I loved Pete, Federer is now better than Pete was at his best. Federer's game (his backhand in particular) is so beautiful that you almost forget how lethal it is until you're reminded as you watch how it devastates his opponents.
When I watch Kobe, do I get that feeling, that I'm seeing something special I've never seen before? Nope. He's great, no doubt, but I've seen his repertoire before, and I've never gotten the feeling after watching him that "wow, he's even improved on MJ". And I say that from the perspective of having disliked MJ for the majority of his career, having only come to admire his greatness near the very end of his run.
I would note this also. With greats such as Tiger, Federer and MJ, why have we not seen the degree of "offcourt" troubles that we've seen with Kobe? My take on it is this: because even from the very outset of their careers, they KNEW- not just "wanted to be", they KNEW-they were very likely one of a kind. Look at how they interact(ed) with their fellow competitors/teammates. Tiger is well-liked by the majority of his fellow competitors on tour, as is Federer. In defeat both almost always acknowledge the great efforts of their opponents, because they know both that their opponents have elevated their games to beat them, and also that THAT elevation will only drive THEM. Their praise is engineered to ENCOURAGE their opponents because they know it will bring out the best in THEM. MJ was also usually deferential in defeat to his defenders, acknowledging their efforts to stop him, and he was well-liked by and interacted well with his teammates.
What can we say about Kobe? If I may borrow a kindergarten report card phrase, it's probably best described as "Doesn't play well with others". When asked about the efforts of his defenders, Kobe is just as likely to trash them (ala Raja Bell) as he is praise them, or often at best just offer short, sullen remarks confined to how HE didn't execute. And we all know how well Kobe interacted with his own teammates even during the salad years of the Laker run...he was well-known for his aloofness, undoubtedly perceived by many of his teammates as an "I'm better than thou" attitude. He publicly trashed his own teammate Shaq, an integral reason for his 3 rings to date, and publicly feuded with Zenmaster Phil, Lord of the 9 Rings, for God's sake (sure, MJ feuded with Phil over the triangle offense too, but that was BEFORE it was proven to work...I guess Kobe just wanted to be like Mike in that instance too...). It's yet another sign that Kobe is just a "great pretender", imo. Or "Michael(k)obe Ultra", if you prefer.
Sure, you can chalk most of Kobe's problems up to some psychological introversion or something, but hey, no excuses are acceptable when you're evaluating the issue of "the greatest". "The greatest" requires near-"perfect storm" execution of ALL qualities (aside: which gives rise to the personal observation, thank God I'm not the greatest in anything, cuz Lord knows what I would do without my repertoire of excuses).
So in summary, is it still ridiculous to argue that Kobe is on pace to become the greatest player of all time? When he is not and to date never has been on pace to be even the greatest player of all time at his own position, yes. It's actually more correct to say that from what we've seen from him to date, both on the court and off, it has NEVER been NOT ridiculous to argue that Kobe is currently on pace to become the greatest basketball player of all time.
The closer question imo is whether Kobe will be considered as good as Lebron when all is said and done. Imo, there IS a legitimate question as to whether Lebron has taken the Magic mold and stepped it up a notch with a hint of "MJ finisher" crossover, and at 21 yo Lebron has also begun to showcase the "killer instinct" in the Washington series. If all that turns out to be the case, Kobe won't even be considered the greatest player of his era, let alone of all time.
Michael(k)obe Ultra. Lose the All-Time Greatness. Not the Drama. :D
Yes it is.L O V E L I F E said:
First off, let's get one thing out of the way. I'll freely admit that I am a Kobe detractor (one wonders how much of the "Kobe greatness" view is inspired by those who have a similar "MJ detractor" stance, but that's another issue). But let's remove the personal biases and look at the comparative stats/accolades/accomplishments of Kobe vs. Michael Jordan through the same periods of their careers to date (age 22-27, I'm removing Kobe's NBA stats/MJ's college stats for the purpose of objectivity...Kobe's first several NBA years really wouldn't help him in this discussion anyway, and mind you, remember Jordan sat out practically his entire second season due to injury):
MJ's Cumulative Stats, age 21-27 ('84-'85-'90)*
32.8 ppg 6.3 rpg 6.0 apg 2.78 spg 1.09 bpg 51.6% fgm 84.8% ftm 28.2% 3pm 3.27 topg
Kobe's Cumulative Stats, age 21-27 ('99-'00-present)*
27.8 ppg 5.9 rpg 5.3 apg 1.70 spg 0.63 bpg 45.4% fgm 83.8% ftm 33.6% 3pm 3.16 topg
*MJ's frame of reference only includes 6 seasons, Kobe's 7 because of birthdate issue/I couldn't break down MJ's midpoint season. If MJ's 7th season ('90-91) were included, the disparity would only worsen.
a) MJ was a better, more prolific and far more efficient scorer than Kobe during the compared periods. I might also add that despite the relevant period including ~70 less games for MJ than Kobe, he only shot 83 less free throws (MJ 4195 fta, KB 4278 fta, MJ also converted a higher % of them), indicating he was a more difficult player to guard despite double/triple teams with no Shaq to draw away pressure, and this was in the period before MJ began getting the "MJ benefit of the doubt" on the calls.
b) MJ was clearly a better defender during the period compared, averaging over 1 steal pg more and almost half a block pg more than Kobe, despite not having the defensive lane presence of a Shaq in his prime allowing him to gamble more defensively.
c) MJ was a better passer/had better all-around "basketball IQ" court awareness as evidenced by his averaging almost 1 assist pg more than KB during the period compared, again despite not having the offensive presence of a Shaq in his prime for much of Kobe's relevant period and therefore having to carry a heavier scoring burden.
d) MJ's turnovers are only negligibly higher than KB's during the relevant period (0.1 topg more), despite drawing greater defensive pressure due to no Shaq-like wingman presence for much of that time.
e) MJ was just as clutch as KB (if not moreso) in playoffs, sinking game-winning, series-clinching shot in Game 5 against Cavaliers in 1989 (I would add his game-winning shot in the '82 NCAA finals as a freshman, but I said I wouldn't consider MJ's college career).
Accolades:
MJ:
1 NBA MVP
1 Championship as the acknowledged #1 player on his team
4-time league leading scorer (consecutive seasons)
'87-'88 Defensive Player of Year (4th season in league)
3 consecutive years NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
63 points in a playoff game against the Celtics Dynasty in his 3rd season while being guarded by one of the other two acknowledged titans in the game at the time, Larry Bird, leading Bird to remark afterwards that it was "God disguised as Michael Jordan"
Kobe:
0 NBA MVP
3 Championships as an uber "Scottie Pippen" to Shaq's "Jordan", 0 Championships as the #1 player on his team
2 NBA All-Defensive 1st Team, 1 NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team
81 points in a regular season game against the Raptors, a non-playoff caliber Eastern Conference team
Moreover, Kobe has an additional self-imposed hurdle which only reduces the already infinitesimal chance that he will ever be considered "the greatest player ever": his public image is tarnished to the degree that almost no matter what he ever does to rehabilitate it, he will always be considered dislikeable. Despite any off-court troubles (some infidelity, gambling debts are rumored), MJ was (and still is) almost universally revered, as evidenced by his vast endorsement portfolio. If MJ could be called "His Airness", Kobe could perhaps best be called "His Primadonnaness". It's not even necessary to go into the rape/adultery smear to realize that for Kobe to be considered the greatest ever, merely equaling MJ's accomplishments (which as we've seen above, he's not even currently on pace to do) isn't even close to enough...he'd have to SUBSTANTIALLY exceed them, which ain't happening. Kobe's case for "the greatest" has been even more tainted and self-obstructed than Barry Bonds'.
The thing is, with some greats you just KNOW from watching them that they're the best ever. Take Tiger Woods. Despite my petty dislike of him initially because "he just made it look too easy", there's no doubt in my mind that he will eventually be considered the greatest ever in golf for a long time. Say what you want about Tiger not facing the caliber of competition that Jack faced (Palmer, Player, Trevino, Miller, Watson), the real reason is that Tiger just came out of the blocks and blew the entire field completely out of the water. He had no peers. It took 4-5 YEARS for a few other players, Vijay and now finally perhaps Mickelson, to ratchet their games up SEVERAL notches to provide Tiger legitimate competition.
Or Roger Federer. Barring career-threatening injury, there's no doubt in my mind that he will be considered the greatest tennis player ever for an appreciable period of time when his career is said and done. Much as I loved Pete, Federer is now better than Pete was at his best. Federer's game (his backhand in particular) is so beautiful that you almost forget how lethal it is until you're reminded as you watch how it devastates his opponents.
When I watch Kobe, do I get that feeling, that I'm seeing something special I've never seen before? Nope. He's great, no doubt, but I've seen his repertoire before, and I've never gotten the feeling after watching him that "wow, he's even improved on MJ". And I say that from the perspective of having disliked MJ for the majority of his career, having only come to admire his greatness near the very end of his run.
I would note this also. With greats such as Tiger, Federer and MJ, why have we not seen the degree of "offcourt" troubles that we've seen with Kobe? My take on it is this: because even from the very outset of their careers, they KNEW- not just "wanted to be", they KNEW-they were very likely one of a kind. Look at how they interact(ed) with their fellow competitors/teammates. Tiger is well-liked by the majority of his fellow competitors on tour, as is Federer. In defeat both almost always acknowledge the great efforts of their opponents, because they know both that their opponents have elevated their games to beat them, and also that THAT elevation will only drive THEM. Their praise is engineered to ENCOURAGE their opponents because they know it will bring out the best in THEM. MJ was also usually deferential in defeat to his defenders, acknowledging their efforts to stop him, and he was well-liked by and interacted well with his teammates.
What can we say about Kobe? If I may borrow a kindergarten report card phrase, it's probably best described as "Doesn't play well with others". When asked about the efforts of his defenders, Kobe is just as likely to trash them (ala Raja Bell) as he is praise them, or often at best just offer short, sullen remarks confined to how HE didn't execute. And we all know how well Kobe interacted with his own teammates even during the salad years of the Laker run...he was well-known for his aloofness, undoubtedly perceived by many of his teammates as an "I'm better than thou" attitude. He publicly trashed his own teammate Shaq, an integral reason for his 3 rings to date, and publicly feuded with Zenmaster Phil, Lord of the 9 Rings, for God's sake (sure, MJ feuded with Phil over the triangle offense too, but that was BEFORE it was proven to work...I guess Kobe just wanted to be like Mike in that instance too...
). It's yet another sign that Kobe is just a "great pretender", imo. Or "Michael(k)obe Ultra", if you prefer.Sure, you can chalk most of Kobe's problems up to some psychological introversion or something, but hey, no excuses are acceptable when you're evaluating the issue of "the greatest". "The greatest" requires near-"perfect storm" execution of ALL qualities (aside: which gives rise to the personal observation, thank God I'm not the greatest in anything, cuz Lord knows what I would do without my repertoire of excuses
). So in summary, is it still ridiculous to argue that Kobe is on pace to become the greatest player of all time? When he is not and to date never has been on pace to be even the greatest player of all time at his own position, yes. It's actually more correct to say that from what we've seen from him to date, both on the court and off, it has NEVER been NOT ridiculous to argue that Kobe is currently on pace to become the greatest basketball player of all time.
The closer question imo is whether Kobe will be considered as good as Lebron when all is said and done. Imo, there IS a legitimate question as to whether Lebron has taken the Magic mold and stepped it up a notch with a hint of "MJ finisher" crossover, and at 21 yo Lebron has also begun to showcase the "killer instinct" in the Washington series. If all that turns out to be the case, Kobe won't even be considered the greatest player of his era, let alone of all time.
Michael(k)obe Ultra. Lose the All-Time Greatness. Not the Drama. :D
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L O V E L I F E
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^^^^^
As always, very well-written.
As usual, many portions were very well-argued.
Unfortunately for objective readers of this thread, however, other portions have well-reasoned counterarguments that shall illustrate the illogic displayed in certain portions of your novella.
I shall need far more time than I have at the moment to give a proper response befitting such a long-winded "argument." <I don't believe in the winkiemoticon; the only people for whom I'd use it are all smart enough to figure out when I'm joking.>
I shall allow my boyfriend to state part of my (his?) (our?) case on the court this evening.
I hereby bequeath to you, glowbug, a firm committment that I shall contribute the balance of my response to your essay in the more traditional LL-style <insert joke here> in this thread at some point this weekend.
Peace on you, my friend, glowbug, and may God bless His Kobeness and his Lakerettes on this beautiful May evening.
As always, very well-written.
As usual, many portions were very well-argued.
Unfortunately for objective readers of this thread, however, other portions have well-reasoned counterarguments that shall illustrate the illogic displayed in certain portions of your novella.
I shall need far more time than I have at the moment to give a proper response befitting such a long-winded "argument." <I don't believe in the winkiemoticon; the only people for whom I'd use it are all smart enough to figure out when I'm joking.>
I shall allow my boyfriend to state part of my (his?) (our?) case on the court this evening.
I hereby bequeath to you, glowbug, a firm committment that I shall contribute the balance of my response to your essay in the more traditional LL-style <insert joke here> in this thread at some point this weekend.
Peace on you, my friend, glowbug, and may God bless His Kobeness and his Lakerettes on this beautiful May evening.
WacoWas AnAccident
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I'll respond later as well but for now let the record reflect that glowbug is gay and he knows it.
WacoWas AnAccident
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LL, I'm dying over here with this fucking game. I'm gonna have a heart attack.
L O V E L I F E
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WacoWas AnAccident said:
I feel you.
Perhaps, you can tactfully ask for a blowjob from glowbug to ease your pain.
He's very proficient overall; but I think he's allergic to purple Laker cum.
WacoWas AnAccident
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Man I'm fucking bummed.
There's no way they'll win Game 7. Let this one slip right through their fingers. Shitty shitty shitty.
There's no way they'll win Game 7. Let this one slip right through their fingers. Shitty shitty shitty.
Hey, don't give up the ship just yet. I popped the Kobe fellatas in the grill with my stat-based treatise complete with regression analysis and double blinds, and they have yet to respond in the wake of my comprehensive shock and awe Kobe-tsunami. Methinks they're cowering in the shadows right now in the hope that the Flakers will somehow pull out a game 7 road dog win. :DTheLoveBandit said:
Thanks for the kudos. I've submitted a draft of my treatise for peer review and publication. :DL O V E L I F E said:
Kobe sure knocked down alot of shots last night. Except the one that mattered most, of course...I guess he left that part of his game at home. Ahh, I bet he's trying to shore up his public image with a good clip for use in a reverse "what if timing" commercial. Good thinking Kobe, that'll show Mike. :D
In other news, having looked at it again today and just to pat myself on the back, I nominate my "Michael(k)obe Ultra" burn as the frontrunner for the Jim Rome Award in this thread. :D
In all seriousness though, this series has been a real pleasure to watch. I friggin' LOVE the Suns' game...they're an absolute joy to watch when they're clicking. Nash is the best PG in the game right now and waaaay better than Stockton ever was. Truthfully, I think I'd take Nash over a Kidd in his prime in a "true PG" selection, though I might take Chris Paul over both of them just for the artistry upside. Tim Thomas was an absolute steal for the Suns and Diaw is a French cafe au lait stud. I wanna have Diaw's mocha babies.
A healthy Amare, Nash, Marion, Bell, Diaw, and Thomas as 6th man next year? The Suns are gonna be FUGLY nasty.
L O V E L I F E
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glowbug said:
I would risk my unborn child's eyes to win a donut that I (or you) could beat Jim Rome in any intellectual/entertainment/sense of humor challenge, and I'd be willing to smoke a crack-laced joint while doing so.
That said, your Michael(k)obe Ultra quip is admittedly clever, and is far beyond the comprehension of the McDonald's-eating Miller-drinking two-digit IQ Rome-worshipping contingent.
My friend-of-the-Kobe brief shall be presented, as promised, this weekend.
Congratulations on winning last night's battle.
We'll see what heroics my boyfriend has in store for all of us tomorrow.
I love this game.
^^'Tis all in good fun in the battle of sports smack, of course.
In truth, though I was pretty pleased with the Ultra burn, the Jim Rome mention was partially an attempt to lure Jefe back into the smack fray. You're certainly no slouch with the sports stat smack goods by any stretch of the imagination, my good sir, but Jefe's got game in that regard as well...and I WANT you Kobe fellatas' best shots. Besides, I laid down some fairly hefty smack (a perceptible thread momentum swing, perhaps a 9-0 run if I do say so myself), so you and Flake-o-bits just might benefit from his stat recall during your 30-second TO.
So it's basically a smack gauntlet for you guys to step up your game under pressure in clutch time.
And yes Jefe, I'm baiting you in true Rome fashion. Just don't kick my Chris Everett ass, okay? Rape it, sure, that's clearly within the spirit of this thread, just don't kick it. :D
In truth, though I was pretty pleased with the Ultra burn, the Jim Rome mention was partially an attempt to lure Jefe back into the smack fray. You're certainly no slouch with the sports stat smack goods by any stretch of the imagination, my good sir, but Jefe's got game in that regard as well...and I WANT you Kobe fellatas' best shots. Besides, I laid down some fairly hefty smack (a perceptible thread momentum swing, perhaps a 9-0 run if I do say so myself), so you and Flake-o-bits just might benefit from his stat recall during your 30-second TO.
So it's basically a smack gauntlet for you guys to step up your game under pressure in clutch time.
And yes Jefe, I'm baiting you in true Rome fashion. Just don't kick my Chris Everett ass, okay? Rape it, sure, that's clearly within the spirit of this thread, just don't kick it. :D
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WacoWas AnAccident
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Statistics are misleading. You cannot qualify greatness with statistical averages.
WacoWas AnAccident
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If Kobe doesn't hang 65 on Raja Bell tonight, I'm revoking my greatest player ever proclamation.
WacoWas AnAccident
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Revoked!
I still love the Lakers though. Kobe is mah nigga for sure.
I still love the Lakers though. Kobe is mah nigga for sure.
Holy crap, that Flaker ass was WAXED to a high gloss shine.
Where was Kobe in the 2nd half? Not in the US Airways Center where his team needed him, that's for sure. 1 pt on a technical ft, 3 fga the entire 2nd half. And it wasn't just that he was trying to get his teammates involved in the game with his distribution...it appeared as if he genuinely threw in the towel by midway through the 3rd quarter. Lamar was the only Laker on the court who showed any signs of life while the Lakers still had any chance. It's pretty sad when Odom is the one desperately trying to make something happen with 1-on-1 plays from the top of the key rather than Kobe.
Steve Kerr: "Bryant took three shots – missing them all – and appeared disheartened by the Suns' dominance. Normally one would expect Kobe to try to keep his team in the game with his offense, as he did in Game 6 when he scored 50 points. But with his club trailing by 20-plus points for most of the second half, Bryant went into a shell and made no attempt to force the issue."
Nice "never say die" attitude Kobe. Way to mail it in in the 3rd quarter when the game was still conceivably within reach. But answer me this, since it was abundantly apparent to virtually everyone that you went into your well-worn little pouty primadonna act again in the 2nd half, who got in whose head last night? At 27, and with a wealth of playoff experience, aren't you a little old to be pulling that pouty bullshit, especially when your less talented teammates need SOME sign of life from you?
Also, nice dirty play with the elbow to the face. Yeah Kobe, you're a real nice guy, you're just misunderstood. I guess we can add "dirty player" to the laundry list of black marks against Kobe. Good job Kobe, you're not only a douche off the court, but on the court as well.
Kobe folded like a 2-8 offsuit hand last night. Wow, maybe he was just like Mike, if Mike was watching from the VIP hold 'em table, that is.
I don't think Mike has anything to worry about from Kobe as far as his all-time stature is concerned.
Where was Kobe in the 2nd half? Not in the US Airways Center where his team needed him, that's for sure. 1 pt on a technical ft, 3 fga the entire 2nd half. And it wasn't just that he was trying to get his teammates involved in the game with his distribution...it appeared as if he genuinely threw in the towel by midway through the 3rd quarter. Lamar was the only Laker on the court who showed any signs of life while the Lakers still had any chance. It's pretty sad when Odom is the one desperately trying to make something happen with 1-on-1 plays from the top of the key rather than Kobe.
Steve Kerr: "Bryant took three shots – missing them all – and appeared disheartened by the Suns' dominance. Normally one would expect Kobe to try to keep his team in the game with his offense, as he did in Game 6 when he scored 50 points. But with his club trailing by 20-plus points for most of the second half, Bryant went into a shell and made no attempt to force the issue."
Nice "never say die" attitude Kobe. Way to mail it in in the 3rd quarter when the game was still conceivably within reach. But answer me this, since it was abundantly apparent to virtually everyone that you went into your well-worn little pouty primadonna act again in the 2nd half, who got in whose head last night? At 27, and with a wealth of playoff experience, aren't you a little old to be pulling that pouty bullshit, especially when your less talented teammates need SOME sign of life from you?
Also, nice dirty play with the elbow to the face. Yeah Kobe, you're a real nice guy, you're just misunderstood. I guess we can add "dirty player" to the laundry list of black marks against Kobe. Good job Kobe, you're not only a douche off the court, but on the court as well.
Kobe folded like a 2-8 offsuit hand last night. Wow, maybe he was just like Mike, if Mike was watching from the VIP hold 'em table, that is.
I don't think Mike has anything to worry about from Kobe as far as his all-time stature is concerned.
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L O V E L I F E
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- Aug 2, 2000
- Messages
- 9,523
First of all, glowbug, today you've been almost as gracious a winner as your favorite community college professor James Rome.
Second, in my admittedly biased and unhumble opinion, MJ, even at his absolute apex, probably doesn't hit BOTH of those Game Four shots . . .
. . . and failing an in-his-prime-MJ making BOTH of those shots, Kobe's admittedly non-stellar Game Seven performance/aftermath is rendered moot for MJ-Kobe-how-far-can-each-of-them-take-CBA-level-teammates comparison purposes.
Further, I'll say this for the 867323404th time:
MJ *NEVER* so much as GOT to the NBA Finals in his nearly two-decade-long career without a Hall-Of-Fame sidekick.
Not once.
I don't want to go into my eight million-word missive about why comparisons of Kobe to Pippen are ridiculously flawed (perhaps I shall save that for my next post in this thread), as Pippen was simply a MUCH less good version of Jordan, while, on the other hand, one might convincingly make the argument that of the two phenomenal complements named Kobe and Shaq, Kobe should have been The Man all along (Has anyone ever heard of Hack-A-Kobe? Did Shaq hit that game-winning 25-foot three-point buzzer-beater to win the only game they salvaged in the '04 Finals, or, in the alternative, was it someone else on that team who was the clutch one?).
Psssst . . . glowbug . . . . stats serve a purpose, but they don't tell the WHOLE story.
I suppose we shall agree to disagree for now; that said, I don't think there will be any disagreeing in the year 2020 when the final tally reads:
NBA TITLES WON:
MJ: 6 (ALL with Pippen)
Pippen: 6 (ALL with Jordan)
Shaq: 3 (ALL with Kobe)
Kobe: More than 3 (My guess would be 6 or 7) (At least one, and likely more than one, WITHOUT a first ballot Hall Of Famer complementing him).
As the optimistic blind man says:
We shall see.
I'll dismantle your ridiculous Tiger/Federer/MJ/Kobe "analysis" when I get back from the Birmingham Barons baseball game I'm being forced to attend because of my gambling problem.
Second, in my admittedly biased and unhumble opinion, MJ, even at his absolute apex, probably doesn't hit BOTH of those Game Four shots . . .
. . . and failing an in-his-prime-MJ making BOTH of those shots, Kobe's admittedly non-stellar Game Seven performance/aftermath is rendered moot for MJ-Kobe-how-far-can-each-of-them-take-CBA-level-teammates comparison purposes.
Further, I'll say this for the 867323404th time:
MJ *NEVER* so much as GOT to the NBA Finals in his nearly two-decade-long career without a Hall-Of-Fame sidekick.
Not once.
I don't want to go into my eight million-word missive about why comparisons of Kobe to Pippen are ridiculously flawed (perhaps I shall save that for my next post in this thread), as Pippen was simply a MUCH less good version of Jordan, while, on the other hand, one might convincingly make the argument that of the two phenomenal complements named Kobe and Shaq, Kobe should have been The Man all along (Has anyone ever heard of Hack-A-Kobe? Did Shaq hit that game-winning 25-foot three-point buzzer-beater to win the only game they salvaged in the '04 Finals, or, in the alternative, was it someone else on that team who was the clutch one?).
Psssst . . . glowbug . . . . stats serve a purpose, but they don't tell the WHOLE story.
I suppose we shall agree to disagree for now; that said, I don't think there will be any disagreeing in the year 2020 when the final tally reads:
NBA TITLES WON:
MJ: 6 (ALL with Pippen)
Pippen: 6 (ALL with Jordan)
Shaq: 3 (ALL with Kobe)
Kobe: More than 3 (My guess would be 6 or 7) (At least one, and likely more than one, WITHOUT a first ballot Hall Of Famer complementing him).
As the optimistic blind man says:
We shall see.
I'll dismantle your ridiculous Tiger/Federer/MJ/Kobe "analysis" when I get back from the Birmingham Barons baseball game I'm being forced to attend because of my gambling problem.
michael
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2001
- Messages
- 19,843
instead of making fun of how miserably kobe played against some guy who will never be considered anything but "the guy who kobe couldn't score against even with every ref rooting for him," i will let the kobe lovers continue to fellate him and bow out of this thread, content in the fact that he'll never rate up there with the jordans, birds, ervings, johnsons, abdul-jabaars...
except, unfortunately for you, that was in the driveway league.
not the NBA, where things actually count.
well shit, that must mean he was the best ever. jordan has how many (answer: 6)? how many do say...dennis rodman or scottie pippen have? do you consider them to be multiply times chamberlain? in the NBA, that is - not your driveway league where you beat a girl.
having seen you get schooled by poste...
L O V E L I F E said:
except, unfortunately for you, that was in the driveway league.
not the NBA, where things actually count.
L O V E L I F E said:
well shit, that must mean he was the best ever. jordan has how many (answer: 6)? how many do say...dennis rodman or scottie pippen have? do you consider them to be multiply times chamberlain? in the NBA, that is - not your driveway league where you beat a girl.
L O V E L I F E said:
having seen you get schooled by poste...
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But I didn't win or lose anything. I'm just a spectator and last time I checked, schadenfreude is expressly permitted in the realm of spectator sports.
Sure, I enjoyed seeing the Lakers get waxed, but not because of this smack exchange. If you recall, I hinted that perhaps you ought consider posting your response prior to Saturday night's game so as to avoid the appearance of "sour grapes/gloating" recriminations on either side. I also believe I heard myself being "sour grapes" admonished for questioning several no-calls earlier in the series in light of your thinly veiled "Kobe chest thumping" ribbings, as well as a smug "really?!?" reply in response to my comment that I still thought the down 2-1 Suns would win the series. Cake is really awesome when you get to both admire and eat it too, no?
Besides, I don't think calling a 31-point loss a "waxing" is exaggerating the case for effect. I'd call my Dukies' humbling 30-pt. '90 loss at the hands of UNLV the same thing. And given that other objective commentators noted Kobe's perplexing 2nd half no-show, I don't think highlighting that was out of bounds either.
Take a look at the pic of Kobe I posted. Hell, you saw it live just as I did, and I'm guessing you may have been as struck by the sheer absurdity of the gesture at the time as I was. There his team was fighting for its life (well not really, but technically they were...Odom was at least) and he was gesturing to the crowd. It was just ludicrous. Were the Suns fans in Kobe's head, or were they not? The very fact that he acknowledged them in the midst of getting his ass handed to him provides the undeniable answer to that. Kobe got rattled, he let his mind wander at the very moment when the last shreds of hope were slipping away. INEXCUSABLE. MJ never did that when it mattered.
MJ hit SEVERAL shots that MATTERED. Game 5, Cleveland, 1989. Game 6, NBA Finals, 1998. At least 25 game-winning shots during the course of his career. Kobe's Game 4 performance was rendered moot BY HIS OWN CHECKOUT Saturday night. So far, it seems Kobe's "clutch shots" have mostly been confined to "moral victory" situations. Wow, if not for Kobe the Lakers would have been swept 4-0 in '04. Give the man a medal. Actually, given Saturday night's sulking when his team most needed him, Deion-like crowd gesture and dirty play, a lollipop might be more appropriate.
From the totality of evidence accumulated thus far in his career, it appears that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. Sure, the current Lakers rise or fall in some situations because of his tremendous talent, but he doesn't elevate his teammates' level of play. MJ did. Steve Nash does. Maybe that's why MJ was awarded 5 NBA MVPs during his career (1 in a season prior to championship success, during which he swept EVERY major regular-season award with the exception of ROTY), Steve Nash now has 2 consecutive MVP awards, and Kobe has none.
If anything, the totality of the evidence strongly suggests that Kobe is a divider, not a uniter. Lucky for him his talent is so abundant...otherwise he might easily be in danger of being classified in the "cancer" category awaiting a Rasheed-type "reformation". You need a boot-camp style coach for that though, not a Zenmaster.
Case in point, Saturday night. Hmm, one wonders if the "me, me, me" attitude displayed by Kobe the last few years has now irreversibly permeated current Laker team culture, rendering his teammates inescapably beholden to the adrenaline rushes of a "do I have the opportunity to shine, hmm, let me weigh the odds, fuck it, I ought just as well tank it" mood swing-prone Kobe. One need only recall the semi-"battle of the minds" still smoldering under the surface with Zenmaster about ball distribution just earlier this season to realize that scenario is not entirely farfetched.
If so, congratulations Kobe, that's the "your team" you wanted, that's the team you got. Food for thought.
Sure, MJ never got to the finals without Pippen, but he got out of the first round with a rookie Pippen coming off the bench and Brad Sellers, Charles Oakley and Dave Corzine as his support. Dave Corzine and a 3rd-year Charles Oakley, ferchrissake. Not to mention the Bulls' win total improved 11 games in MJ's rookie season after having been out of the playoffs for 3 years with win totals in the high 20's employing essentially the same roster.
Kobe (and his supporting "CBA scrubs", as you invariably call them) couldn't do that in his 9th season to beat out the Grizzlies for a Western Conference 8 seed, nor could they muster even close to a winning season. Wow, you mean Bonzi, Gasol and Mike Miller as 6th man were appreciably better (+11 wins) than Kobe, Lamar, and Caron Butler?
Oh right, there was the rape charge wrapup. And the injuries to Odom and Kobe. And Rudy T's health-related resignation. Funny, the criminal charges were dismissed prior to the start of the season. And the Lakers' record without Bryant was 6-8, only slightly below .500. And the Lakers' late-season slide actually began after Kobe's return and before Odom's season-ending injury. And with Kobe and the healthy '04-05 starting lineup, the Lakers were roughly a .500 team at best, still not good enough to catch those impressive Grizzlies. Given that they were only 1 game below .500 for the month without Kobe but HORRIBLE without Odom despite vastly improved play from Butler, one wonders which of the two injuries was actually more damaging to the '04-'05 Lakers. Again, just more anecdotal support for the argument that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better.
Btw, let me know when a championship-caliber team implements "the Bryant Rules" to stop Kobe. From the looks of Saturday night, the Suns implemented single-coverage Bryant rules (with the exception of sliding over screens), and that worked pretty damn well.
Or check out this site, which concluded based on its analysis that Kobe didn't even rate in the top 20 current "clutch" players as of March 2005. Interestingly, Nash was in the top 5, as was Manu Ginobli. I quote:
"This will not sway Kobe Bryant fans any, who are still reveling in his incredible recent performance in the 4th quarter against Charlotte. That however is the problem in a nutshell -- people remember the game where he's brilliant, and forget the games (yes, plural) where he falls short. Let's state it one more time, Kobe is a good clutch player, but not currently the best."
http://www.82games.com/clutchplay3.htm
Or this:
"In February of 2006, USA Today conducted an analysis which took into account NBA players' scoring, rebounding, assist and turnover statistics within the final two minutes and in overtime periods of the games of the 2005-2006 NBA season prior to the All-Star break. Kobe Bryant's name was noticeably absent from the league's individual leaders in every category, as were the Lakers in every team category. Moreover, from the 2003-2004 season through March 16, 2006, Bryant has hit a lower percentage of his "game-winning" shot attempts (defined as a shot taken when one's team is tied or trailing by one or two points, and with 24 seconds or less left in the game) than the overall league average, and a substantially lower percentage of such shots than many other players, such as Allen Iverson, Michael Redd, Carmelo Anthony, and Jalen Rose, who are not nearly as widely lauded for late-game heroics as is Bryant."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant
You're right, statistics don't tell the whole story. And when you've got hype and notions preconceived at least partially out of (anti-MJ Knickphile) bias to which to cling, they're neither necessary nor desirable to tell ANY part of the story.
Agreeing to disagree is fine with me. You stick with the conjecture, I'll stick with what the numbers and non-conjecture show.
Sure, I enjoyed seeing the Lakers get waxed, but not because of this smack exchange. If you recall, I hinted that perhaps you ought consider posting your response prior to Saturday night's game so as to avoid the appearance of "sour grapes/gloating" recriminations on either side. I also believe I heard myself being "sour grapes" admonished for questioning several no-calls earlier in the series in light of your thinly veiled "Kobe chest thumping" ribbings, as well as a smug "really?!?" reply in response to my comment that I still thought the down 2-1 Suns would win the series. Cake is really awesome when you get to both admire and eat it too, no?
Besides, I don't think calling a 31-point loss a "waxing" is exaggerating the case for effect. I'd call my Dukies' humbling 30-pt. '90 loss at the hands of UNLV the same thing. And given that other objective commentators noted Kobe's perplexing 2nd half no-show, I don't think highlighting that was out of bounds either.
Take a look at the pic of Kobe I posted. Hell, you saw it live just as I did, and I'm guessing you may have been as struck by the sheer absurdity of the gesture at the time as I was. There his team was fighting for its life (well not really, but technically they were...Odom was at least) and he was gesturing to the crowd. It was just ludicrous. Were the Suns fans in Kobe's head, or were they not? The very fact that he acknowledged them in the midst of getting his ass handed to him provides the undeniable answer to that. Kobe got rattled, he let his mind wander at the very moment when the last shreds of hope were slipping away. INEXCUSABLE. MJ never did that when it mattered.
MJ hit SEVERAL shots that MATTERED. Game 5, Cleveland, 1989. Game 6, NBA Finals, 1998. At least 25 game-winning shots during the course of his career. Kobe's Game 4 performance was rendered moot BY HIS OWN CHECKOUT Saturday night. So far, it seems Kobe's "clutch shots" have mostly been confined to "moral victory" situations. Wow, if not for Kobe the Lakers would have been swept 4-0 in '04. Give the man a medal. Actually, given Saturday night's sulking when his team most needed him, Deion-like crowd gesture and dirty play, a lollipop might be more appropriate.
From the totality of evidence accumulated thus far in his career, it appears that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. Sure, the current Lakers rise or fall in some situations because of his tremendous talent, but he doesn't elevate his teammates' level of play. MJ did. Steve Nash does. Maybe that's why MJ was awarded 5 NBA MVPs during his career (1 in a season prior to championship success, during which he swept EVERY major regular-season award with the exception of ROTY), Steve Nash now has 2 consecutive MVP awards, and Kobe has none.
If anything, the totality of the evidence strongly suggests that Kobe is a divider, not a uniter. Lucky for him his talent is so abundant...otherwise he might easily be in danger of being classified in the "cancer" category awaiting a Rasheed-type "reformation". You need a boot-camp style coach for that though, not a Zenmaster.
Case in point, Saturday night. Hmm, one wonders if the "me, me, me" attitude displayed by Kobe the last few years has now irreversibly permeated current Laker team culture, rendering his teammates inescapably beholden to the adrenaline rushes of a "do I have the opportunity to shine, hmm, let me weigh the odds, fuck it, I ought just as well tank it" mood swing-prone Kobe. One need only recall the semi-"battle of the minds" still smoldering under the surface with Zenmaster about ball distribution just earlier this season to realize that scenario is not entirely farfetched.
If so, congratulations Kobe, that's the "your team" you wanted, that's the team you got. Food for thought.
Sure, MJ never got to the finals without Pippen, but he got out of the first round with a rookie Pippen coming off the bench and Brad Sellers, Charles Oakley and Dave Corzine as his support. Dave Corzine and a 3rd-year Charles Oakley, ferchrissake. Not to mention the Bulls' win total improved 11 games in MJ's rookie season after having been out of the playoffs for 3 years with win totals in the high 20's employing essentially the same roster.
Kobe (and his supporting "CBA scrubs", as you invariably call them) couldn't do that in his 9th season to beat out the Grizzlies for a Western Conference 8 seed, nor could they muster even close to a winning season. Wow, you mean Bonzi, Gasol and Mike Miller as 6th man were appreciably better (+11 wins) than Kobe, Lamar, and Caron Butler?
Oh right, there was the rape charge wrapup. And the injuries to Odom and Kobe. And Rudy T's health-related resignation. Funny, the criminal charges were dismissed prior to the start of the season. And the Lakers' record without Bryant was 6-8, only slightly below .500. And the Lakers' late-season slide actually began after Kobe's return and before Odom's season-ending injury. And with Kobe and the healthy '04-05 starting lineup, the Lakers were roughly a .500 team at best, still not good enough to catch those impressive Grizzlies. Given that they were only 1 game below .500 for the month without Kobe but HORRIBLE without Odom despite vastly improved play from Butler, one wonders which of the two injuries was actually more damaging to the '04-'05 Lakers. Again, just more anecdotal support for the argument that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better.
Btw, let me know when a championship-caliber team implements "the Bryant Rules" to stop Kobe. From the looks of Saturday night, the Suns implemented single-coverage Bryant rules (with the exception of sliding over screens), and that worked pretty damn well.
Or check out this site, which concluded based on its analysis that Kobe didn't even rate in the top 20 current "clutch" players as of March 2005. Interestingly, Nash was in the top 5, as was Manu Ginobli. I quote:
"This will not sway Kobe Bryant fans any, who are still reveling in his incredible recent performance in the 4th quarter against Charlotte. That however is the problem in a nutshell -- people remember the game where he's brilliant, and forget the games (yes, plural) where he falls short. Let's state it one more time, Kobe is a good clutch player, but not currently the best."
http://www.82games.com/clutchplay3.htm
Or this:
"In February of 2006, USA Today conducted an analysis which took into account NBA players' scoring, rebounding, assist and turnover statistics within the final two minutes and in overtime periods of the games of the 2005-2006 NBA season prior to the All-Star break. Kobe Bryant's name was noticeably absent from the league's individual leaders in every category, as were the Lakers in every team category. Moreover, from the 2003-2004 season through March 16, 2006, Bryant has hit a lower percentage of his "game-winning" shot attempts (defined as a shot taken when one's team is tied or trailing by one or two points, and with 24 seconds or less left in the game) than the overall league average, and a substantially lower percentage of such shots than many other players, such as Allen Iverson, Michael Redd, Carmelo Anthony, and Jalen Rose, who are not nearly as widely lauded for late-game heroics as is Bryant."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant
You're right, statistics don't tell the whole story. And when you've got hype and notions preconceived at least partially out of (anti-MJ Knickphile) bias to which to cling, they're neither necessary nor desirable to tell ANY part of the story.
Agreeing to disagree is fine with me. You stick with the conjecture, I'll stick with what the numbers and non-conjecture show.
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