Is it OK to spank a child?

[Jabberwocky]

My baby sister who cursed like a sailor, gave up all swear words upon having her first child. Reason being that it would break her heart to have her kid saying that stuff as a toddler. Creep may have meant outwards defiance instead of cussing but when you have a kid going from baby to todler you are going to hear some "NOs!" that will have every bit as much defiance as can be contained in "Fuck you"

Defiance is the beginning of individuality in my opinion and isn't to be stomped out but tempered.

 

[Wizzle]

I'm very much against this. Physical force should only be used on children when they are themselves attacking you or someone else. When I got at an age where I could physically overpower my dad I had no reason to respect him, which is really fucking sad.

 

[rant*N*rave]

I apologize if any of this comes across as insulting. I'm adding this disclaimer now after having typed my replies because I know I'm gonna come off snarky. I just don't really know how to communicate appropriately to people that have never raised children, because the vast majority of the time, they "just don't get it."

obviously, i've never had children myself, but i have several friends who've been able to raise successful, smart and respectful children without spanking. i don't think it's an idealistic notion.

Obviously you missed the parts where I said, several times, that SOME children never need spanking because they respond well to other forms of discipline. I had a couple cousins that barely ever even needed a talking to because they were such great kids. If you think a time out made my little brother think twice about anything, well... He NEEDED to be spanked. He did dangerous, awful things on more than one occasion, and the only thing that ever got him to stop was a spanking. My parents actually tried to eliminate spanking with him until he started threatening to stab people (mostly me) and that woke them up enough to get it. The spanking ended that pretty quickly. My parents spanked me, and it worked well - but they abused the fuck out of me with their words, and to this day I WISH they would have just spanked me more. I'd have come out better adjusted... You HAVE to understand that everything with children is about intent and execution. My parents barely ever laid a hand on me, and I'm still in therapy...

of course one cannot expect to have a rational conversation with a toddler. at that age, their motor skills have developed more quickly than their verbal skills and a parent is still equipped to communicate consequences for improper behavior.

SOMETIMES. This is something you need to experience for yourself, or I know you'll never believe me. It's great that the kids you've seen have been so well-behaved, but lots of them aren't.

i've seen this before and i definitely think it's neglectful. however, while you might spank your child in this situation, i'd take mine to the bathroom or car until they calmed down. you also have to consider why they're throwing a fit. maybe they didn't get a good nap or they're hungry.

Or maybe they're just a dick. Some kids are just bad kids. I'm always an advocate of simply taking them out of the situation, as sometimes that can calm kids down enough on its own, but that doesn't work well on all kids. If I know as a parent that my kid will respond well to a spanking rather than something else, I'll spank them. This is, again, keeping in mind that spanking should be used INCREDIBLY rarely - if you do it with any frequency, it loses its entire meaning.

also, i've never seen a crying, tantrum-throwing child STOP crying when their parent spanked them.

I have. Many, many times. Myself included.

firstly, i fully believe if you're a good, consistent parent, you won't raise a child that steals.

And I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster conducts our lives through the power of His Great Noodly Appendage.

Granted, my parents were shitty parents, but I was always a good kid. My brother was, and still is, a piece of shit kid. The same parents produce wildly different children all the time, because EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, even as a child. He's a druggie dropout loser living at home that just knocked up a 17 year old. I'm a college graduate with a job, a home, and a car of my own. And my parents used waaaaayyy less discipline on him, spanking, verbal, or otherwise; but they did use lots of discipline compared to average on both of us.

and, even so, if my child did steal, and they weren't caught, i'd make them return the item and apologize to the store owner. if they were caught, you'd better believe they'd be doing something like volunteering at the store they stole from. making the punishments fit the crime will stick longer and better with a child than a smack that will be long forgotten after a few hours.

And what do you do when your child repeatedly tries to drink bleach, touch the stove, or hit other children? What do you do if your kid keeps stealing after you make them return their spoils and volunteer and all that?

and jesus. a child that accidently broke a tv does not deserve to be hit; it's an accident. first, if the parent is home and their kid is running around, that energy needs to be directed more positively. make them go outside to play or have them clean their room.

No one here is advocating punishing accidents. That's the entire point - spanking is only useful when used completely appropriately. And it would be nice if we all had places where it was safe for kids to play outside, and it would be nice if all children would go clean their rooms when you told them. But that's not how it works.

yeah. if a parent hasn't given their child a television and phone and computer in their room, being banished to it and asked to read a book or write an essay on what they did wrong, IS DISCIPLINE.

And what do you do when that form of discipline doesn't work?

also, and just as an interesting fyi, i read recently that children that are more bonded to their parents, are more mellow and experience fewer tantrums.

The more interesting fyi is that some children don't bond well at all through no fault of their parents. That's what really needs to be addressed. My brother was one of those children.

as white American chick mostly raised middle-class, corporal punishment was pretty common in my house. my mother was an alcoholic and was raised by an alcoholic military colonel. maybe that's why i want to be on the opposite side of the spectrum. because hitting didn't teach me to communicate; it taught me to hit. just because it was "normal" in my house, doesn't mean it's normal in everyone's house or a good way to raise a child.

So NOW I get you. You think hitting is wrong because your parents hit you wrong. My parents were abusive as all hell and they were very confusing to me, but I KNEW what a spanking was for. The one good parenting tactic my parents had *was* spanking. I got yelled at and degraded alllll the time, so I never knew what was really bad or not when I got yelled at, but I only ever got spanked when I had done something REALLY bad and/or dangerous, and I always got an explanation why I was spanked and was told I was loved and got a hug afterwards. Whenever I did something that earned a spanking, I NEVER did it again. It was the only meaningful punishment I ever got, so when my parents told me that something was a spank-worthy offense, I sure as shit didn't do it. That kept me out of a lot of trouble and worked out so I got less of ANY form of discipline because I didn't need it because I stayed out of trouble in the first place. Again, it's all about intent and execution.

And AGAIN, that was ME. Not every child. You have to understand that every child needs to be parented differently. I will never forget about the time my neighbor Debbie spanked me. She never ever ever ever ever spanked - she was in tears for having done it - but even she realized that it was necessary at the time, and the spanking worked, 100%. I don't think she ever spanked her own kids once, so you can appreciate how difficult it was for her to do it to me.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Only on the bum and it was only a whack or two. What did I learn? negative actions have negative consequences.

I guess that's the difference... my parents raised me to think about and decide what was "negative" on my own. I was taught to think for myself, not just to bend to "the law". My parents pretty much always treated me like my own little person with my own free will, and because they gave me that respect I always respected them back and never particularly rebelled against them or anything. They never gave me a reason to.

I will never forget about the time my neighbor Debbie spanked me.

Whooooa. Someone other than your parents spanked you? If anyone ever laid a hand on my child I'd end up in jail for hurting a bitch. Seriously. That is so beyond inappropriate...

edit- something I've noticed is a lot of people seem to believe in raising kids similar to how they were raised. Most of the people I know who believe in spanking were spanked by their parents. Sometimes it can go the opposite though. My dad and his brothers had the belt taken to them and he *thank god* never laid a hand on us... Spanking is just so incomprehensible to me.. I can't imagine people thinking it is okay to act in violence toward their children.

 

[Khadijah]

^^I dont think its incredibly inappropriate for a person other than ur parent to discipline your kids, if they are in c harge of the kid at the time.

people are way too lax with kids these days. When i was a kid, if your neighbor saw you doin somethin wrong, you actually had to WORRY about it, becuz they would tell your moms , best believe it. i dont think some random ass stranger should be smackin my kids around but the thing is that i am guessing in RNRs situation she is talkin about her neighbor when most likely she was babysitting her, etc. In that situation i dont think its wrong. Everybody is so scared to do anything these days that they see a little kid behavin bad as hell and the dont say or do shit. When i was little if you were at a neighbors house and you did somethin bad there you would get punished then when you went home and your mom found about it she would punish you again, shit.

I would have a problem if somebody who i didnt give the right to take care of my kid, was spankin em, but if is somebody that is in charge, then i aint got a problem with it. if its somethin i would do why would there be a problem with them doing it while they in charge.


Anyways, Futurepig you asked how i would plan to discipline my kid when they are too old to get spanked. i dont think there is a too old. I will chase after this lil muh fucka with the wooden spooon when he is 16 years old lol.

I really think people take this shit way too serious. Spanking aint and never will be child abuse. there is so much of the new age hippy dippy shit and people treat the idea of spanking or givin a kid a smack like its some kind of horrible abusive thing. I just dont get it.

Michael....I dont see nothin wrong with givin a kid a LITTLE smack on the mouth if they say somethin REALLY smart ( i dont mean ingelligent i mean they try and get smart with you and talk shit). Not somethin to do on the regular and DEFINATELY not hit hard. when the kid is real small, like 2 3 years old thats too young for that. but once a kid is a little older, 6, 7 8 years old and they say some real bad-ass little shit, i dont see a problem with a LIL , not-hard-at-all smack.

I aint gonna get into how i think about doin some shit like callin 911 on the dad, becuz thats just gonna start a whole nother debate, but Ima just say i think thats a little....excessive.

Anyways, i think i can sum up my feeling in here by, No offense to the many Blers who i respect opinions on when it comes to other shit, btu when it comes to this, i think alot of yall are bein pussies. Its just how i feel. There aint no way that nobody could ever convince me that spankin a kid or givin a whack on the ass with the wooden spoon , etc , is child abuse. It just aint. I will never abuse my kid. but discipline involves many things, and sometimes that is one of them.

Nobody is sayin thats the only way but its one of the ways and the fact that people who aint in no way abusive can end up in trouble for doing shitthats perfectly normal is ridiculous to me.

 

[michael]

Michael....I dont see nothin wrong with givin a kid a LITTLE smack on the mouth

a) this wasn't a little smack, and b) you should hope you never do it in front of me, because i am going to be on the phone with 911 before you are done. as for being excessive, no it's not - and i think that is a pussy thing to say.

 

[Khadijah]

Well if it wasnt little, then i agree with u and thats a problem nobody should be poppin their kid in the face. But regular-ass spanking aint child abuse. How its a pussy thing to say that callin the cops on somebody for giving their kid a little smack on the butt is excessive?

it aint excessive to call the cops if somebody is straight up beatin they kids ass in front of you in public. Im just sayin if its a standard spank, then thats fucked up becuz it aint your biz--if the kid is clearly gettin abused and hurt thats one thing and i dont see a prob. with doing that, even tho i wouldnt--i would handle that shit my self and let that parent know wat the fuck is up, nevermind the police.

But callin the cops on somebody who just gave their kid a little butt whack , becuz while you can clearly see they aint ABUSING the kid, but you just dont agree with that form of discipline, yea that is fucked up to me.

I aint sayin you did that, obviously i agree that its wrong to realy hit a kid hard in the face.

Im just sayin that i think a reasonable person, while they might disagree with spanking, should be intelligent enough to put that aside for a second and tell the difference of if a person is actually abusing the kid or not--it aint abuse just cuz u dont agree with it and treatin that with the same severity as a person ACTUALLy abusing their kid is puttin a strain on the system that fucks over the kids who really are gettin hurt and need the help.

 

[michael]

Well if it wasnt little, then i agree with u and thats a problem nobody should be poppin their kid in the face. But regular-ass spanking aint child abuse. How its a pussy thing to say that callin the cops on somebody for giving their kid a little smack on the butt is excessive?

who said they would do that? however

if its a standard spank, then thats fucked up becuz it aint your biz

if you do it in public, it becomes everyone's business.

i would handle that shit my self and let that parent know wat the fuck is up, nevermind the police.

i don't know about you, but ending up with an assault charge is not something that i want to deal with.

obviously i agree that its wrong to realy hit a kid hard in the face.

it is wrong to hit the kid in the face, period.

we can agree to disagree, but you saying repeatedly that it's not abuse doesn't mean it isn't. and avoiding putting strain on the system is a ridiculous apologetic - it could be the difference in saving the kid's life.

 

[Fawkes]

I apologize if any of this comes across as insulting. I'm adding this disclaimer now after having typed my replies because I know I'm gonna come off snarky. I just don't really know how to communicate appropriately to people that have never raised children, because the vast majority of the time, they "just don't get it."

no problem. i always appreciate and respect your posts, r*n*r. but, i think we're going to have to agree to disagree as it pertains to spanking.

the bottom line is that i'm not going to spank my children. i've seen enough people get through to children in non-violent ways and despite whether or not you think i "get" it, it's entirely possible.

i have a sister that is 8 years younger than me and throughout my high-school summers, i baby-sat 2 or more children at least 40 hours a week, and during the school year several nights a week after school or on the weekends. despite all the time i spent with them, i’m not bold enough to tell another childless woman who had less experience that i know anymore than she or that she simply doesn’t “get” it.

agreed you have had great experience as a nanny or baby-sitter or with children as a family member, but you were you really in charge of raising those children… or did you just watch them? ime, i walked into a situation, i knew the rules, the children knew the rules, i was just there to make sure they followed the rules their parents already put into place.

if you were delegated as the person to actually rear the children, then it’d be no surprise if they misbehaved. in that situation, it's inconsistent parenting and their parents are essentially neglecting their responsibilities as a parent.

part of the purpose of my previous replies was to give examples of ways to discipline without hitting. that non-violent discipline can be just as effective if not more effective, than spanking.

Obviously you missed the parts where I said, several times, that SOME children never need spanking because they respond well to other forms of discipline.

i understand that you think some children do and some do not need spanking; i didn't miss that point. but, EVERY friend i know with children who've made a conscious decision not to spank, has great kids. you can't convince me that it's idealistic to think i'd never need to spank my child. and you won’t convince me that spanking is ever necessary or that inherently bad kids come out of the womb raising Cain (UNLESS there is an underlying behavioral disorder).

And I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster conducts our lives through the power of His Great Noodly Appendage.

yep; just a tad snarky.

Granted, my parents were shitty parents, but I was always a good kid. My brother was, and still is, a piece of shit kid. The same parents produce wildly different children all the time, because EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, even as a child. He's a druggie dropout loser living at home that just knocked up a 17 year old. I'm a college graduate with a job, a home, and a car of my own. And my parents used waaaaayyy less discipline on him, spanking, verbal, or otherwise; but they did use lots of discipline compared to average on both of us.

okay? so you're saying your parents weren't consistent in the way they raised you and your brother? and they disciplined you more than they did your brother? forgive me if my mind isn’t exactly blown, that you’d be totally different individuals, one of you leading a more respectful life than the other.

i think i've made it clear that parents definitely need to discipline their children. the only difference is that i fully believe it can be done more effectively and less barbarically without spanking.

And what do you do when your child repeatedly tries to drink bleach, touch the stove, or hit other children? What do you do if your kid keeps stealing after you make them return their spoils and volunteer and all that?

okay, the bleach thing - as a parent it’s your responsibility to keep harmful chemicals away and out of reach of children. the stove touching thing, i will agree, is a toughie, just as i mentioned when a child runs into a street... a child endangering themselves without necessarily realizing it is scary as a parent i can imagine, and i could see how a parent might react out of fear, but I think it’s important not to. i think the child should be removed from the situation, firmly told "no" and put into time-out. each time they cross that line, you do it again for longer periods or more severe punishment (without spanking).

if i've exhausted every non-violent disciplinary resource available and my child is still disobeying in ways that are harmful or disrespectful, then i think it's time to try counseling; maybe there's an underlying behavioral problem that needs addressed. i don't accept that some kids are just bad (unless they're chemically imbalanced) - there are bad parents who've taught their children, whether they mean to or not, bad or unsuccessful lessons.

what are you going to do when you’ve spanked your child and they’re still misbehaving? do it again, right? because you consistently do it until they’ve learned. i just feel you can get better and quicker results without humiliating, hurting or striking fear into your kids.

No one here is advocating punishing accidents. That's the entire point - spanking is only useful when used completely appropriately. And it would be nice if we all had places where it was safe for kids to play outside, and it would be nice if all children would go clean their rooms when you told them. But that's not how it works.

did you not read what this was in response to? BEEF/N/BROKLY and Lacey both said their kids would deserve a smack for breaking their hard-earned television, which is an accident. i understand that breaking the t.v. was a consequence of them doing something they weren’t supposed to: rough-playing in the house. and sure i can understand some people don’t have a backyard to shoo their child into, but that doesn’t give you an excuse to take the easiest method available and spank. i provided only two examples of alternate methods of either redirection to prevent the accident or punish the rule-breaking. you could also take half of their saved allowance (and then immediately deposit it into a savings account specifically for your kid)… i don’t know. i’m not there, yet… i’m not sure which toy or thing or whatever my child is going to miss most if it were taken away.

And what do you do when that form of discipline doesn't work?

you do it again.

The more interesting fyi is that some children don't bond well at all through no fault of their parents. That's what really needs to be addressed. My brother was one of those children.

no offense, but your family life sounds a little fucked. are you sure they were consistent with attachment exercises? and even if they were, are you sure your brother doesn’t have some sort of mental illness? happy people don’t end up unproductive drug addicts.

So NOW I get you. You think hitting is wrong because your parents hit you wrong.

i did state this earlier in the thread. i think it’s wrong because it’s ineffective and sends the wrong message. admittedly, i’m more passionate and absolute about it due to my upbringing.

My parents were abusive as all hell and they were very confusing to me, but I KNEW what a spanking was for. The one good parenting tactic my parents had *was* spanking.

so, your parents either yelled abusive things at you or spanked you? you don’t think you could have learned the same lessons if they were consistently calm and collected and communicated through discussing their praises and displeasures? again, no offense, but your parents don’t exactly seem like the best examples of effective, quality parenting.

you know, while i understand and respect you won’t rule out spanking as a parent, if you’re an encouraging, consistent and stable parent (and the sort of parent i think you’ll be based from what i know of you), i think you’re gonna be surprised to find that you don’t birth one of these intrinsically “bad” children.

guess we should all check back in about 10 years.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

people are way too lax with kids these days. When i was a kid, if your neighbor saw you doin somethin wrong, you actually had to WORRY about it, becuz they would tell your moms , best believe it. i dont think some random ass stranger should be smackin my kids around but the thing is that i am guessing in RNRs situation she is talkin about her neighbor when most likely she was babysitting her, etc. In that situation i dont think its wrong. Everybody is so scared to do anything these days that they see a little kid behavin bad as hell and the dont say or do shit. When i was little if you were at a neighbors house and you did somethin bad there you would get punished then when you went home and your mom found about it she would punish you again, shit.

To each their own. I respect that it's each parents right to raise their kids the way they feel is best. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm 28 and when I was little, my dad would have beat someones ass if they thought they could attempt to "punish" me. A child should always feel like their parent is on their side.

just as i mentioned when a child runs into a street... a child endangering themselves without necessarily realizing it is scary as a parent i can imagine, and i could see how a parent might react out of fear, but I think it’s important not to. i think the child should be removed from the situation, firmly told "no" and put into time-out. each time they cross that line, you do it again for longer periods or more severe punishment (without spanking).

Funny, me and my guy were just talking about this yesterday. Obviously when kids are really little an adult should hold their hand when crossing the street, but I swear, it baffles me when I see these little kids who will just run out into traffic. I don't get it, because from a very young age (like, 4 or even younger) I UNDERSTOOD that there were cars in the street and that if I ran out without looking I would likely get smushed. I even felt a little patronized when an adult would demand I look both ways... I was like DUHHHH!

Guess everyone is different... some kids seem totally clueless, whereas the possibility of a violent and gruesome death always seemed very real to me when I was little... guess I was just disturbed, lol. :D

Btw everyone in this thread should watch the show "Supernanny". That show and the techniques they use for helping kids was really really helpful to me when I was raising a 4 year old with my ex. They worked, and they didn't involve spanking.

 

[badandwicked]

Michael....I dont see nothin wrong with givin a kid a LITTLE smack on the mouth if they say somethin REALLY smart .

Never the face. That's just hideous. If you have to, and have no other tools in your parenting kit bag, maybe the legs, bottom or arms, somewhere with a bit of soft tissue, but never the face for gods sake. Way to raise a flinchy child.

I was smacked, and haven't suffered and don't hate my parents. But I recognise now that having to smack in the first place is a sign of weak parenting. There's no such thing as a 'bad' kid, or one that wouldn't respond to better effective parenting (unless they were autistic or had some other condition). Only liberal or ineffective parents.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Hitting a child in the face is child abuse. Period.

 

[badandwicked]

BTW great post FuturePig & +1 on Supernanny. I've seen true 'devils spawn demon kids' turned around over the course of a few months on that program, as the realisation dawns on the parents faces that they themselves have created the monster.

 

[rant*N*rave]

Whooooa. Someone other than your parents spanked you? If anyone ever laid a hand on my child I'd end up in jail for hurting a bitch. Seriously. That is so beyond inappropriate...

You thoroughly misunderstand. This woman was practically my surrogate mom when I was little. My mom was finishing law school and working, and my dad was working crazy hours. Our neighbor was a stay-at-home mom with two kids, and she watched me during the day while my parents were at work. This woman was in tears over having spanked me, but she didn't know what else to do - I was a smart kid, and I knew not to go in the street, and I did it anyways. I had been told a million times never to do it. I did it because I thought it was funny (I did *tons* of fucked up shit as a little kid that I thought was hilarious and terrified the fuck out of my parents). My mom thanked her for doing it, and we had a conversation about why my behavior was wrong and all that. This wasn't some random lady or babysitter hitting me; this was a woman that was entrusted with my care a HUGE amount of every week.

edit- something I've noticed is a lot of people seem to believe in raising kids similar to how they were raised. Most of the people I know who believe in spanking were spanked by their parents. Sometimes it can go the opposite though. My dad and his brothers had the belt taken to them and he *thank god* never laid a hand on us... Spanking is just so incomprehensible to me.. I can't imagine people thinking it is okay to act in violence toward their children.

I think the difference is that some people believe in the *potential* of using tools their parents used - for instance, I was spanked and I think spanking is fine, but I also think spanking is a last resort. I would love nothing more than to never have to spank a child. I never have so far. But having been privy to a lot of crazy situations with children (I have a fucking HUGE catholic family), I can totally see the merit in spanking in *certain* situations.

You also have to remember that true, correct spanking is NOT violence any more than raising your voice. A swat on the butt in the appropriate manner barely hurts, just stings for a moment; it's simply a "shock value" sort of thing. A spank in my universe is no more shocking to a child than a stern, loud "no".

 

[rant*N*rave]

There's no such thing as a 'bad' kid, or one that wouldn't respond to better effective parenting (unless they were autistic or had some other condition). Only liberal or ineffective parents.

HA! Nothing more to say here... Some kids are just BAD. I've been witness to it a zillion times over. Kids are frequently assholes until they're old enough to understand what they're doing, which can be well into grade school.

 

[rant*N*rave]

no problem. i always appreciate and respect your posts, r*n*r. but, i think we're going to have to agree to disagree as it pertains to spanking.

Probly. You do have to understand that I really think spanking is a VERY LAST resort. I have never spanked a child, and I don't intend to if I can avoid it, but I have seen enough children that NEED to be spanked (including myself with no reservation) that I simply won't rule it out 100%.

the bottom line is that i'm not going to spank my children. i've seen enough people get through to children in non-violent ways and despite whether or not you think i "get" it, it's entirely possible.

And that's the thing. *I've* seen enough children that *needed* spanking to think that it can be entirely necessary. I definitely needed it. I did shit like you wouldn't believe as a kid, and I *knew* that what I was doing was wrong and did it anyways. So when I got spanked for serious infractions, it was the only thing that kept me from doing it again. Of course it's entirely possible to raise a child and never spank them. It's also entirely possible to raise a child in a healthy way with spanking. As I've said before, spanking was the only healthy tool my parents used.

i have a sister that is 8 years younger than me and throughout my high-school summers, i baby-sat 2 or more children at least 40 hours a week, and during the school year several nights a week after school or on the weekends. despite all the time i spent with them, i’m not bold enough to tell another childless woman who had less experience that i know anymore than she or that she simply doesn’t “get” it.

I am the oldest in a massive catholic family and nannied for a long time, as well as done *extensive* babysitting. I've done WAY more than simply "watching" kids while their parents are out.

part of the purpose of my previous replies was to give examples of ways to discipline without hitting. that non-violent discipline can be just as effective if not more effective, than spanking.

And no one is disputing that. We are simply trying to argue that spanking *can* be an effective tool, not that it is a necessary tool.

i understand that you think some children do and some do not need spanking; i didn't miss that point. but, EVERY friend i know with children who've made a conscious decision not to spank, has great kids. you can't convince me that it's idealistic to think i'd never need to spank my child. and you won’t convince me that spanking is ever necessary or that inherently bad kids come out of the womb raising Cain (UNLESS there is an underlying behavioral disorder).

And this here is why we'll never agree. I think you have been abnormally lucky in your experiences with children.

yep; just a tad snarky.

Hey, no religious persecution! I'm a pastafarian. Seriously. :D (His noodliness would demand a smiley.) www.venganza.org for all your educational needs. I have an FSM "jesus fish" on the back of my car and everything!

okay? so you're saying your parents weren't consistent in the way they raised you and your brother? and they disciplined you more than they did your brother? forgive me if my mind isn’t exactly blown, that you’d be totally different individuals, one of you leading a more respectful life than the other.

My parents were way more demonic towards me. By all of the non-spanking crowd's arguments, *I* should be the fucked up one. My parents were AWFUL to me, and I'm still in therapy for it, but I'm responsible, hard-working, respectful, and successful. The only reason I have even begun to forgive my parents is because of all the great qualities they instilled in me - I don't know many people my age that work as hard as I do and take as much pride in achieving great things. They just went about it in a totally fucked up fashion that produced a lot of negative side effects like horrific anxiety and self-doubt.

okay, the bleach thing - as a parent it’s your responsibility to keep harmful chemicals away and out of reach of children. the stove touching thing, i will agree, is a toughie, just as i mentioned when a child runs into a street... a child endangering themselves without necessarily realizing it is scary as a parent i can imagine, and i could see how a parent might react out of fear, but I think it’s important not to. i think the child should be removed from the situation, firmly told "no" and put into time-out. each time they cross that line, you do it again for longer periods or more severe punishment (without spanking).

I was put on eight hundred million time outs and still did that sort of fucked up shit. That's when spanking came into the picture for me, and that's when I stopped doing said fucked up shit.

what are you going to do when you’ve spanked your child and they’re still misbehaving? do it again, right? because you consistently do it until they’ve learned. i just feel you can get better and quicker results without humiliating, hurting or striking fear into your kids.

In my family, spanking was always the end of the problem, because spanking was used successfully. Spanking was the end-all be-all of punishments, and it was never used lightly. As a result, it always got the intended result. My parents had no "quicker" method than spanking, and it was always instant.

did you not read what this was in response to? BEEF/N/BROKLY and Lacey both said their kids would deserve a smack for breaking their hard-earned television, which is an accident. i understand that breaking the t.v. was a consequence of them doing something they weren’t supposed to: rough-playing in the house. and sure i can understand some people don’t have a backyard to shoo their child into, but that doesn’t give you an excuse to take the easiest method available and spank. i provided only two examples of alternate methods of either redirection to prevent the accident or punish the rule-breaking. you could also take half of their saved allowance (and then immediately deposit it into a savings account specifically for your kid)… i don’t know. i’m not there, yet… i’m not sure which toy or thing or whatever my child is going to miss most if it were taken away.

If there are no toys or allowance to take away, you're left with very little here... There was nothing my parents could have taken from me. They grounded me a lot, and being stuck in my room for a week was a hell of a lot more damaging to me than a swat on the butt at age 5.

no offense, but your family life sounds a little fucked. are you sure they were consistent with attachment exercises? and even if they were, are you sure your brother doesn’t have some sort of mental illness? happy people don’t end up unproductive drug addicts.

My family life was more than a little fucked, and my brother does have a mental illness, but it's the result of the interaction between him and my parents that came as a result of their incompatibility. My mom and dad did nothing different with him than with me except for less punishment when he was young, but by all standards, that was still a LOT of punishment. They punished him more when he got older, but by that point it was worthless. He simply never listened to them no matter what they did. I came out neurotic, so I had the fear of god; he came out reactive, so he didn't give a shit.

i did state this earlier in the thread. i think it’s wrong because it’s ineffective and sends the wrong message. admittedly, i’m more passionate and absolute about it due to my upbringing.

And that's really the difference. It was so successful with me that I can't see ruling it out as reasonable. My parents didn't beat me. I got a quick stinging smack on the butt when I did something *really* wrong, and those were some of the few times that they actually used good parenting skills.

so, your parents either yelled abusive things at you or spanked you? you don’t think you could have learned the same lessons if they were consistently calm and collected and communicated through discussing their praises and displeasures? again, no offense, but your parents don’t exactly seem like the best examples of effective, quality parenting.

No, I really don't think so. I was a dick of a kid. I did horrific, awful things even after I'd been told not to all the time and got put on time outs and got talkings to and all that. I did shit like hiding myself for hours until my parents were terrified or putting myself in dangerous situations because I thought it was funny. I once took my mom's keys and purse, left the house, got into the garage, unlocked the car, put the keys in the ignition and was about two inches from starting it and putting it in gear. The only problem was that I was too little to get the car going. My mom caught me before I could really cause havoc. Keep in mind I was not but 3 years old when I did all this...

you know, while i understand and respect you won’t rule out spanking as a parent, if you’re an encouraging, consistent and stable parent (and the sort of parent i think you’ll be based from what i know of you), i think you’re gonna be surprised to find that you don’t birth one of these intrinsically “bad” children.

Won't surprise me at all! I think I'll be able to do a fine job of raising a pretty well-adjusted kid. Hopefully without spanking, even! I don't rule out the possibility, however, of getting a "bad egg." They are definitely out there. The thought terrifies me, really, after having witnessed it first hand. Nothing scares me more than the thought of having to dole out punishment to a kid on more than a scant handful of occasions. Corrective adjustment is one thing; punishment is another. Had my parents been better parents, they probably could have turned my brother around more successfully and quickly (he *is* starting to get his life together, but only at age 20 after completely fucking everything up - funny enough, the impetus is the fact that he's about to be a dad...), but what happens when the kid is even worse than he was? I'd prefer just to ignore that possibility, really.

guess we should all check back in about 10 years.

Give me 15 please. I don't plan on popping one out til I'm 30!

 

[BEEF/N/BROKLY]

you're fucking 15 ^^^ u're still a baby needing to be spanked talking about spanking as a last resort.... LMFAO I CANT WAIT FOR YOUR KIDS TO EITHER BUG DA FUCK OUT AND DRIVE YOU INSANE OR WALKK ALLL OVER YOUR PASSIVE ASS...... come one now are you serious.......... I HOPE YOU GET A CRAZY LIL FUCKER LIKE ME WHO WONT AT THAT AGE CARE FOR UNDERSTANDING... yea the world is far from black and white, but when you teach wrong from right with physical punsihment they tend to learn.... Trust me, if I aint neva get my ass beat i wudnt stop, and trust me mental torment is by far worse then any bat you hit me wit(granted it dont kill me lol) but seriously, I was probably verbally abused and brought down mentally more than physically(wether it be by hands or weapons or hotsauce lol), and had I not had the mental torment maybe I wudnt of become bipolar/skitzo(or atleast not as severe), but trust me, Id much rather have gotten 10X da beatings(AND TRUST ME DA BEATINGS WERE BAD) than the actually daily screaming, verbal fightings, and just selfesteem fucks I was dealt with. I wanted to kill myself since 8 and not because I was being hurt physically, shit pain aint never phase me... It was those harsh, harsh words(or screams) which brought me to my lowest points.....

And how the fuck is a slap in the face child abuse.. u guys pussssy

o n im only 19 but my mind is older, and wen things get fo real my warmm heart turns colder... n not jsut on some mobbbdeep tip worddisbon

 

[BEEF/N/BROKLY]

and lemme add now that I love life, and am thankful for those beatings(and having to kneel in hard rice, and all the other crap i was put thru), but that mental abuse moreso verbal is what really fucked me.. They even proved the saying sticks and stones is far from the truth, and people who were mentally abused have memories as they were beating wit spiked bats(even if they werent hit at all) cause mental hits harder than any weapon and will cause you to go to greater lengths of pain than anything physical which is usually over as soon as it starts..

 

[rant*N*rave]

HA! Are you really that fucking dumb?

I'm 25. I don't plan on having kids til 30, and you probably need to get them past birth to see how your parenting affects them. If I have a kid at 30, they won't be 10 for another 15 years.

And I also think spanking is okay, dumbass.

And I was raised by abusive fucking parents, just as bad as yours. Can you fucking read? I have PTSD from the ridiculous shit they did to me, and most of it was verbal, like you seem to love to go on about.



Please pardon my ad homs, my mod-ly overlords.

 

[BEEF/N/BROKLY]

sorry i mis interpreted what you said and I HAVE PTSD aswell it suckss... wen I get flash backs and shit(and they are from severe shit not wut my parents did) I get anything from like torrets like screams/twitches to full on rage where I pop off on any mo fucka in site.. truley sorry ma, I was prolly directing my anger twards everyone and not just you but I had thought u were like 15 and didnt really read ur whole post, my bad