Opioids Is heroin really that much different?

[hauntedparadise]

I switched to heroin because I was tired of dealing with nasty pharmacists getting refused at pharmacies etc tbh I don't think heroin is that bad if you can control it but most can't me included at least I have managed to stick to smoking etc

Pharmacists can refuse your scripts? Isn't that illegal?

You know the answer to this without wondering.
Listen, I’ve been an addict for over a decade (yes daily use, with literally hardly no clean time in between) (insufflated) I hate that many times I’ve had IV users say shit like “oh, just wait, it’s knly a matter of time until you start shooting” etc etc I have no desire to shoot up at all.

Same. I've been using oxy for years. I never had the desire to IV. I have a strong aversion to blood and needles. I freak out over blood from minor cuts. I don't even like looking at needles at the docs office.

What made you switch from pharms to h?

 

[iLoveYouWithaKnife]

What made you switch from pharms to h?

Teen years into 20s I always dabbled with pills (percs, Vicodin etc) and even fentanyl patches (back when you could still extract the gel from them. Painkillers were never really my DOC but I guess I never refused if they were around. In 2008 when the OxyContin phase was sweeping through, I got caught up in it. My friend went to jail (huge op where they were cashing 20 Rx a week min) and I wasn’t about to start paying the street prices.

 

[hauntedparadise]

Teen years into 20s I always dabbled with pills (percs, Vicodin etc) and even fentanyl patches (back when you could still extract the gel from them. Painkillers were never really my DOC but I guess I never refused if they were around. In 2008 when the OxyContin phase was sweeping through, I got caught up in it. My friend went to jail (huge op where they were cashing 20 Rx a week min) and I wasn’t about to start paying the street prices.

So I am assuming most people switch due to availability and price. I never tried H because in my mind it seemed like pharms were not really drugs unlike street drugs like smack. I won't lie that I am not fascinated by heroin. Everyone talks about how devastating it is but on the flip side also talk about how it is the perfect high.

I am horrified by all the personal stories I read on here but at the same time it just adds to the aura of this majestic drug.

 

[iLoveYouWithaKnife]

Perhaps. I can’t speak for anyone other than myself. I can say at first, if there were no pills around, I’d suffer through the sickness because I’d reason to myself that pills weren’t the same as smack, at least I know what was in the pill etc etc but 10-15 years later there are all these fake pills around and you don’t know what you are getting anyway. I think starting out in my addiction it was also a way to justify it as well. But at the end of the day... an opiate habit is an opiate habit is an opiate habit.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I think the withdrawal from heroin itself is just too miserable and crippling for most addicts to function while under its regular usage.

For example, oxycodone withdrawal makes you hate yourself and suffer from unparallel depression.. but mostly unless you're cold turkey'ing substantially high doses of opioids you will at most lack appetite and struggle sleeping. But there's something special about heroin sickness whenever I see someone go through it in comparison. It looks.... unbearable and physically the symptoms are too powerful to mask through it like one can in theory go to work under oxy withdrawal. What I'm saying isn't super objective or anything and maybe people could dispute this but this is just my perception of the difference as well. If you're on heroin you better not withdraw ever, lol.

Heroin is cheaper than oxycodone so that can be enticing at first--but somehow the user always ends up fiending and spending more money on heroin than oxycodone ever before. It's pull is too strong for a recreational drug. For most users it becomes their entire life. I mean if you don't care about a drug summoning the crap out of you and totally taking over control of its user then I guess it wouldn't matter so much. The only substance I've been able to see match the power of heroin is meth. But meth seems to take most people straight to crazy town and they seem to think that the drug doesn't affect them at all lol.

I definitely do miss the good ole days of oxy but then again when I look back at it I was just watching shows on it. I could've done that without the expense of it all anyway lol. Other than killing pain there really is no use for it. They're amazing anti-depressants for a while but then it seems to make one very depressed in the long run. Opiates are one of the best highs out their in my opinion but nodding out in a chair is a waste of time. Opiates can't really take you very far.. at least not like users want them to. They're all a dead end one way or another and it's not fun to find out how it all ends lol. Because you're going to be stopped by someone or something eventually unless you overdose yourself. At least stimulants make you energized and want to get stuff done. Then again I did fap a marathon which in hindsight is ironically also a complete waste of time.

 

[EphemeralOutlet141]

So I am assuming most people switch due to availability and price. I never tried H because in my mind it seemed like pharms were not really drugs unlike street drugs like smack. I won't lie that I am not fascinated by heroin. Everyone talks about how devastating it is but on the flip side also talk about how it is the perfect high.

I am horrified by all the personal stories I read on here but at the same time it just adds to the aura of this majestic drug.

I think the allure of heroin is that it's cheap, highly available to nearly anyone, fast-acting, and in many cases more potent than anything else you can get (unless you somehow have a cheap and steady supply of oxymorphone or IV hydromorphone). It would be one thing if it were 1 or 2 of those factors, but the combination of all them along with a dwindling supply of RX options is the recipe for the current epidemic. It's sort of a unique situation of economics and addiction colliding much like the crack epidemic.

I'm glad that you're reading everything that people are posting here in response to you. I can tell that you're taking this all very seriously and that's a mark of someone who values harm reduction. Like I said much earlier in this thread my philosophy is absolute personal freedom and responsibility, so I think people should do what they want, but also have all the info and take responsibility for getting that info and using it.

 

[hauntedparadise]

I definitely do miss the good ole days of oxy but then again when I look back at it I was just watching shows on it. I could've done that without the expense of it all anyway lol. Other than killing pain there really is no use for it. They're amazing anti-depressants for a while but then it seems to make one very depressed in the long run. Opiates are one of the best highs out their in my opinion but nodding out in a chair is a waste of time. Opiates can't really take you very far.. at least not like users want them to. They're all a dead end one way or another and it's not fun to find out how it all ends lol. Because you're going to be stopped by someone or something eventually unless you overdose yourself. At least stimulants make you energized and want to get stuff done. Then again I did fap a marathon which in hindsight is ironically also a complete waste of time.

That is the best part about oxys. I use it for mental pain relief not physical. It is the only thing that melts away all my anxiety. I've tried xanax before and I hated it. It just made me fall asleep and I felt brain dead on it. No sense of euphoria or relief. I am already high strung. I've tried adderall and it just gives me a panic attack.

I think the allure of heroin is that it's cheap, highly available to nearly anyone, fast-acting, and in many cases more potent than anything else you can get (unless you somehow have a cheap and steady supply of oxymorphone or IV hydromorphone). It would be one thing if it were 1 or 2 of those factors, but the combination of all them along with a dwindling supply of RX options is the recipe for the current epidemic. It's sort of a unique situation of economics and addiction colliding much like the crack epidemic.

I'm glad that you're reading everything that people are posting here in response to you. I can tell that you're taking this all very seriously and that's a mark of someone who values harm reduction. Like I said much earlier in this thread my philosophy is absolute personal freedom and responsibility, so I think people should do what they want, but also have all the info and take responsibility for getting that info and using it.

I wanna try opana so badly. It is supposed to have the longest legs out of all pharm opioids. But it is so rare I do not know how people have such a reliable steady supply of these things. You are giving me too much credit. The only reason why I haven't tried smack yet is because I am super paranoid about fent and I am struggling to understand how darknet works. If I had a trustworthy connection or was tech savvy I would have already made the switch.

I think I might just give poppy tea a second chance, did not really do anything for me the last time I did it but I think I messed up the prep. Or look into kratom. But something about H that is so alluring to me. I know it is potentially addictive but so many songs, movies, etc are dedicated to it. It is one of those bucketlist kind of things I want to eventually cross off my list.

 

[sewerslide.666mg]

kratom helped me out mix a couple muscle relaxers and weed I'm good, but every ones diffrent I like oxy to I use to so heroin once in a wile but it really fucked my friends up, and like they said if ur in US 95% it will be fet

 

[supermarket]

I think the withdrawal from heroin itself is just too miserable and crippling for most addicts to function while under its regular usage.

For example, oxycodone withdrawal makes you hate yourself and suffer from unparallel depression.. but mostly unless you're cold turkey'ing substantially high doses of opioids you will at most lack appetite and struggle sleeping. But there's something special about heroin sickness whenever I see someone go through it in comparison. It looks.... unbearable and physically the symptoms are too powerful to mask through it like one can in theory go to work under oxy withdrawal. What I'm saying isn't super objective or anything and maybe people could dispute this but this is just my perception of the difference as well. If you're on heroin you better not withdraw ever, lol.

Heroin is cheaper than oxycodone so that can be enticing at first--but somehow the user always ends up fiending and spending more money on heroin than oxycodone ever before. It's pull is too strong for a recreational drug. For most users it becomes their entire life. I mean if you don't care about a drug summoning the crap out of you and totally taking over control of its user then I guess it wouldn't matter so much. The only substance I've been able to see match the power of heroin is meth. But meth seems to take most people straight to crazy town and they seem to think that the drug doesn't affect them at all lol.

I definitely do miss the good ole days of oxy but then again when I look back at it I was just watching shows on it. I could've done that without the expense of it all anyway lol. Other than killing pain there really is no use for it. They're amazing anti-depressants for a while but then it seems to make one very depressed in the long run. Opiates are one of the best highs out their in my opinion but nodding out in a chair is a waste of time. Opiates can't really take you very far.. at least not like users want them to. They're all a dead end one way or another and it's not fun to find out how it all ends lol. Because you're going to be stopped by someone or something eventually unless you overdose yourself. At least stimulants make you energized and want to get stuff done. Then again I did fap a marathon which in hindsight is ironically also a complete waste of time.

I can't agree with that at all. Oxy withdrawal is pretty fucking bad. Theres no masking it, or working on it, when you are withdrawaling from a high oxy habit. IMO, heroin w/d IS worse..... but not by much.

 

[EphemeralOutlet141]

@hauntedparadise

Just wanted to check in to see where you're at after all this.

 

[G_Chem]

I think the reason “heroin” withdrawal is so bad the last 5+yrs is because the fentanyl. In fact really high quality pure heroin, the withdrawal mg/mg is better than Oxycodone.

Synthetic opiates tend to have nastier withdrawals in my experience. BUT... Even with pure heroin it can get bad simply because the dosages some people can reach which is harder with the prohibitive cost and supply of Oxycodone.

So obviously someone taking 80mg a day while they will hurt when they come off, the half gram pure heroin a day addict will suffer more.

One of my worst withdrawals ever was off a measly 40mg oxy a day. It was nasty. On the other hand, quitting 250mg pure heroin habit a day wasn’t as bad and that 250mg had me WAY higher. That doesn’t sound like a lot but if its pure that had me so far gone.

It’s definitely the fentanyl causing the issues now. I’ve heard of old school heroin addicts complaining about the change in withdrawal, lasting longer and being more intense.

-GC

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Fent withdrawal is the kind of withdrawal that makes one want to off themselves. You can think you're strong until it hits.

 

[hauntedparadise]

@hauntedparadise

Just wanted to check in to see where you're at after all this.

I bought some kratom powder. It tastes so nasty and it really doesn't replace oxy for me. It is mildly calming but doesn't really provide the same sense of euphoria and relaxation that I am looking for.

For the time being I have decided to wait a bit to see if the pill market returns to pre-covid prices/availability. Although in the back of my mind I eventually want to try heroin just once to see what the fuss is all about and cross it off the proverbial bucket list.

I have been educating myself on darknet markets and if I wasn't so bad with technology I would have probably already ordered some by now. I am most surprised at how cheap high grade heroin is compared to pharma pills. Thanks for the check up.

 

[hauntedparadise]

Also bear in mind that it's a minefield i.e. at the moment (as I understand it) you're using OTC Oxy. From all of the threads I've read here for the past few months: you'd be opening yourself up to an entire new world of being ripped off and being supplied with substandard product and with the risk of it being cut with (who know how much) Fentanyl (as but one example). Fentanyl I do have experience with and believe me: the warnings about Fentanyl are not based on folklore and really should be taken seriously. Put another word: the potential risk/reward ratio in your case just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Yeah that is why I am sketched out by buying pressed pills or random heroin. I was lucky that I had a dependable source for scripted oxy and it was good while it lasted. I think I could minimize my risk by sticking with high rated vendors on darknet markets. It is really taking me a long time to figure this stuff out though. I do eventually want to try heroin just once to see what the big deal is. I know I won't become a junkie because I don't have the money to fund an expensive habit and I grew up too sheltered to ever resort to crime for money.

 

[Stassi202]

Nothing anyone can say will convince you not to do it. But I will guarantee that if you do, you will understand what it means when people say there are worse things than dying.

Good luck

 

[Stassi202]

I think the reason “heroin” withdrawal is so bad the last 5+yrs is because the fentanyl. In fact really high quality pure heroin, the withdrawal mg/mg is better than Oxycodone.

Synthetic opiates tend to have nastier withdrawals in my experience. BUT... Even with pure heroin it can get bad simply because the dosages some people can reach which is harder with the prohibitive cost and supply of Oxycodone.

So obviously someone taking 80mg a day while they will hurt when they come off, the half gram pure heroin a day addict will suffer more.

One of my worst withdrawals ever was off a measly 40mg oxy a day. It was nasty. On the other hand, quitting 250mg pure heroin habit a day wasn’t as bad and that 250mg had me WAY higher. That doesn’t sound like a lot but if its pure that had me so far gone.

It’s definitely the fentanyl causing the issues now. I’ve heard of old school heroin addicts complaining about the change in withdrawal, lasting longer and being more intense.

-GC

That is, if the fent doesn’t kill you first...

 

[MajjBenzo42]

I think the reason “heroin” withdrawal is so bad the last 5+yrs is because the fentanyl. In fact really high quality pure heroin, the withdrawal mg/mg is better than Oxycodone.

Synthetic opiates tend to have nastier withdrawals in my experience. BUT... Even with pure heroin it can get bad simply because the dosages some people can reach which is harder with the prohibitive cost and supply of Oxycodone.

So obviously someone taking 80mg a day while they will hurt when they come off, the half gram pure heroin a day addict will suffer more.

One of my worst withdrawals ever was off a measly 40mg oxy a day. It was nasty. On the other hand, quitting 250mg pure heroin habit a day wasn’t as bad and that 250mg had me WAY higher. That doesn’t sound like a lot but if its pure that had me so far gone.

It’s definitely the fentanyl causing the issues now. I’ve heard of old school heroin addicts complaining about the change in withdrawal, lasting longer and being more intense.

-GC

But you weren't withdrawing from 250mg of heroin. Oxy and other drugs are quantified by a pharmacist. Buying a quarter of a gram of street heroin doesn't mean you are taking 250mg of Diamorphine Hydrochloride.
The thing is, even that 'back in the day' street snack we all rave about was only ever in the late teens early twenties percent of purity..
So there no way that a double time release version of a synthetic codeine is going to have a withdrawal as bad as the big H.
When you take into account that Oxycodone is a double time release as well.
First (like all codeine's and codone's) they have to be metabolised by CYP3A4 into their Morphone or Morphine equivalent. And that's while the tablet itself is slow release.
Most of the time though, when you do a like for like equipotent dose for dose with Diamorphine, nothing comes close to the withdrawals.
I'd heard all the stories and anecdotes about DCH being twice as bad, Methadone lasting for three months and hurting10 times worse, Temgesic withdrawal changing your brain chemistry so you never stop withdrawing etc etc.
But when it's come down to it, (and I've done the rattle from all of them) the only two withdrawals that I personally can't handle and feel like giving up are Heroin, and really long time heavy drinking.

 

[G_Chem]

But you weren't withdrawing from 250mg of heroin. Oxy and other drugs are quantified by a pharmacist. Buying a quarter of a gram of street heroin doesn't mean you are taking 250mg of Diamorphine Hydrochloride.
The thing is, even that 'back in the day' street snack we all rave about was only ever in the late teens early twenties percent of purity..
So there no way that a double time release version of a synthetic codeine is going to have a withdrawal as bad as the big H.
When you take into account that Oxycodone is a double time release as well.
First (like all codeine's and codone's) they have to be metabolised by CYP3A4 into their Morphone or Morphine equivalent. And that's while the tablet itself is slow release.
Most of the time though, when you do a like for like equipotent dose for dose with Diamorphine, nothing comes close to the withdrawals.
I'd heard all the stories and anecdotes about DCH being twice as bad, Methadone lasting for three months and hurting10 times worse, Temgesic withdrawal changing your brain chemistry so you never stop withdrawing etc etc.
But when it's come down to it, (and I've done the rattle from all of them) the only two withdrawals that I personally can't handle and feel like giving up are Heroin, and really long time heavy drinking.

Yes I was... The diacetylmorphine I was doing towards the end was high 90% purity nearly always. I don’t need to keep explaining how and why I know that but I can say without a shadow of doubt.

I’d probably be using a lot more than 250mg a day if it was anything but highly pure after years of use, unlimited access to morphine sulphate 100’s and Oxys of all shapes and sizes...

All that said, circumstances could of been different in other ways that might have made that one time off oxy worse than others.

-GC

 

[Deru]

One of my worst withdrawals ever was off a measly 40mg oxy a day. It was nasty. On the other hand, quitting 250mg pure heroin habit a day wasn’t as bad and that 250mg had me WAY higher. That doesn’t sound like a lot but if its pure that had me so far gone.

This is surprising to hear. I've been heavily addicted to both at various points in my life, and heroin taught me about a new layer of hell than oxycodone ever could have (you know my history so I won't bore you with it lol). And this was before fentanyl came around, fentanyl and buprenorphine are even worse than heroin withdrawals, that was a whole different universe of misery.

 

[HoldBack]

So I just created an account here to reply to this thread because OP sounds exactly like I used to...

Dude, you are an addict. You may not think so because you are not physically addicted, but you are 100% mentally addicted. Thinking of switching to heroin because your supply of blues is low is NOT rational thought for someone who is not an addict. Getting high on the weekends being the only thing in your life you look forward to is not healthy or normal. Everything you say about having a strong will and walking the fine line, no reason to stop blah blah blah I used to tell myself the same things..I walked that line for 8 years before I crossed it! But as others have said, it WILL catch up to you, as it did me. This is going to be a long post, but I'm writing out my path to how I got to where I am in hopes it will help you see.

I first started dabbling in oxycodone in 2007, the summer after I graduated high school. I was always a smoker, didn't much care for drinking. Always asked myself why would anyone need to take pills when they can just smoke weed? Well that summer I got too high one time and had the first panic attack of my life. It really scarred me and caused daily anxiety for the next 3-4 years, and ruined my ability to enjoy weed as I always did before that panic attack. Remember I was not a drinker so I needed something to fill that void. Oxy was perfect for me, gave me the euphoria I was looking for and melted away my anxiety, put me at complete peace. Well I went off to college and for the 4 years there I never had a legit connection. I could only find something once a month or so. In those days I only did them on special occasions, say a concert or going camping one weekend with a bunch of friends. I would find a couple pills and SAVE them for weeks, just so I was certain I'd have them for these occassions where I REALLY wanted to enjoy the experience..I would've liked to do a little more but just didn't have the sourcing.. but I was already to the point where I felt I HAD to have them if I was to have real fun during these types of events. That was thru all 4 years of college.

Well after graduating college I moved back home and all of a sudden had connections again. The couple friends I first started dabbling with in 2007 had never left home and were still doing pills and had their established connections. For the next four years I had to get my stuff thru them and never really had a strong direct connection. This was an extra layer that made acquiring a little more difficult but I was fine with it for the most part because it kept me from sketchy places and I believe kept me from doing too many. During these 4 years I slowly transitioned from only on special occasions>to only on weekends and never three days in a row>to only on weekends PLUS a night during the week if I wasn't working the next day>to every night when I was off the next day>to every other day whether I'm working or not. I got to where I had to have oxy to do anything social(which really became almost every night with our friends in our early-mid twenties), and if I didn't have it I wouldn't go do these things because they wouldn't have been fun for me. Going out to bars, parties, on the boat, etc. But I still thought I was in control, just walking that fine line, no reason to stop, just having fun. Nothing I'd get more excited for. Over this time I'd watched my other close friends that dabbled fall off the cliff, but I was more stronger-willed than them. My mind is stronger than the drug. I'm in control.

In 2015 I got a new next-door neighbor. It took a couple months, but I got to know him some and learned he sold blues. And he had them 24/7, right there, right next to me not 40ft from my house! So obviously I quickly became an every day user. I was working a good job and in my circumstances should've been saving a ton of money but I'd pay my monthly bills and every single other dollar would go to pills. At this time, the money I was spending was the only problem I had with my addiction and it bothered me greatly. Got to where I was spending $180 a day, of note is the fact prices have gone up 50%+ over the years. If only I could get my own script and save all that money I'd be happy doing pills every day for the rest of my life!

In 2017 I started trying suboxone some, something I hadn't ever messed with prior. I realized that I could be content with just subs and that I could go to a doctor and get my own script and save a lot of money, so that's what I did. Started sub maintenance in October 2017 by going to a doctor that would give me more than anyone really needs(12mg) and for as long as I wanted. I planned to just do subs for the rest of my life. I was provided enough to catch a good buzz, and could smoke some weed and intensify it. I was saving SOME money, but I was still treating myself to one weekend per month where I'd do blues..problem was that one weekend was still costing me $400-$500. This monthly "treat" continued through January 2019, which was the last time I did a blue. In this time frame I became a hermit, all I wanted to do was get thru work and get home to lay on the couch and try to feel my subs. I avoided going out and seeing my friends. I became depressed and lost the ability to have fun or genuinely look forward to anything. I completely lost interest in hobbies I'd loved my entire life. I lost 30lbs and became unrecognizable to who I used to be. I looked a lot different at 130lbs than I did at my normal 160lbs. Extreme anhedonia is the best way to describe my mindset during this almost two year time frame. Realizing that feeling the way I did was not sustainable I decided I needed to stop everything and give my body and brain the chance to heal, give myself the chance to become my old self again. As I said, I stopped the monthly blues purchases in January 2019, then I coached myself through a long taper off the suboxone. I made the jump from suboxone on September 10, 2019 and have been off it completely since then. I was completely clean for 6 weeks before I did a little kratom one night, and then the kratom usage slowly developed into an every day habbit after a couple months. Then I stopped the kratom(ime the wds from kratom are nothing comparatively)and stayed clean for another couple months..which brings us to now where I've recently been on another kratom bender. My only problem with kratom is that it induces some of my same old habits of just laying on the couch trying to "feel" it. I just don't have the productivity that I do when I'm clean, so for that I'm currently on day 3 of quitting the kratom again. But I sometimes rationalize that if it wasn't kratom, I'd just be drinking 3-4 beers every night as I do when I'm "clean", so there's still a dependence for altering my mind every single day that I need to work on, but I'm much better than I was.

I'm not depressed any more..I've gained my weight back, I'm exercising and lifting weights again, I've reestablished connections with my old friends and become social again(not the friends who do pills, my more "healthy lifestyle" friends). But I'm about to turn 32 years old and I should be way better off at this point in my life than I am. I should have $50k plus in the bank yet I'm $15k in debt. I look back(where the hell did the past 10 years go??) and feel like I wasted a lot of time throughout my twenties and did a lot of damage to my brain chemistry. My addiction has changed me forever, for sure.

I give you my whole story because the things you say sound exactly like I did. Just quit now while you're still ahead, while you're on the right side of that fine line. Seems the only thing saving you right now is the lack of a legit, consistent source. Do not switch to heroin, something even I never seriously entertained. Though I have always told myself if I ever got a terminal illness I'd just spend my last days doing a bunch of heroin haha. But a successful life coinciding with the daily use of opiates is not possible. You will eventually lose your ability to moderate. You are straight up changing how your brain works and it's chemistry, conditioning it.

I suspect you won't listen, because I wouldn't have when I was at your stage. "Won't happen to me, I'm different, I can control it..." Well you can't, you're already well on your way to getting got. But again I stress, save yourself and just stop now..while it's still somewhat easy. My life would be so much different and better right now had I not started taking oxy, I wish I never did. All I can do is grow and learn from the experience and keep pushing forward.

AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, DON'T SWITCH TO HEROIN!!!

As the AA guys will tell you, you know you’re in denial when you focus on the differences rather than the similarities. the details are so different from my life but the core is all still there:

1. start using drugs
2. Start using more drugs
3. You need drugs for a good experience
4. You need drugs constantly to avoid a negative experience
5. Time goes by and you have nothing to show for it.

To Quote the AA guys once more, your only possible outcomes are stopping, dying, or institutionalization.