Insomniacs out there? what do you take?

[bingalpaws]

and use the fucking search engine!

haha jk

 

[f13nd]

I have horrible insomnia, usually average 3-5 hours sleep at most, yet I still never am able to fall asleep at night time. I am prescribed Ativan (Lorazepam) for my insomnia, and it works about 60% of the time @ my prescribed dose (1.5 mg). The effectiveness seems to increase with dosage but so does the amnesia effect and I usually feel very groggy and out of it when I wake up. I recently bought melatonin pills from a drugstore and have been trying those. Haven't noticed any difference in amount of time it takes to fall asleep but I get slightly better rest with melatonin. The greatest sleep aid for me is either codeine or hydrocodone tho I should also state that I take 25mg adderall in the morning and but that doesn't really make me stay up later (Than I already do, i'm an insomniac!) but I do feel more active and get more done even all the up to right before I fall asleep.

 

[f13nd]

http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm this link says that Lorazepam is an anxiolytic, another chart I read on here yesterday said it was a hypnotic. Neither says its both. confusion.


I have a question about which Benzo would be right for my symptoms (And I'd rather not ask the doc because my questions may sound a bit incriminating)

I currently have lorazepam 1.5mg script, it works alright but doesn't quite feel perfect. A major problem I have with this drug is the effects it has on your memory (amnesia).

Heres what I'm really looking for : A benzo that doesn't have an intense effect on the memory, has a low addiction potential (even if I were to abuse it I don't ever want to be dependent on a CNS depressant), will be able to help me sleep at night but also if taken during the day wont just knock me out, instead will have an anxiolytic effect. All in all, I want to deal with anxiety (Not a daily problem so daily dosage not necessary), deal with insomnia, keep as much of my memory as possible and not become addicted. I hope what i'm describing isn't just some imaginary benzo lol.

 

[bingalpaws]

I've never understood the logic behind letting someone who's an insomniac stay on amphetamines, but again, I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!!

For your melatonin, what type/dosage? If your issue is falling asleep, which is typically mine as well, I'd highly suggest a sublingual pill. I'll typically take the majority of a 1mg (just rip off a ~20-30% chunk usually) sublingual pill, crunch it into a bunch of chunks, and then lay down with it under my tongue. Usually does the trick for normal usage, definitely doesn't do much when I have bad insomnia bouts though.

 

[bingalpaws]

Oh and the benzo you described in that last post doesn't exist, nor do any that are similar to what you describe, as far as I'm aware. Others may know more on that though. Benzo-like things like ambien (or is it soma?) may be closer but I'm not too knowledgable on them.

 

[f13nd]

ahh so theres no hybrids only hypnotics and anxiolytics. alright well thanks, and what I was saying was that regardless of amphetamine use I already had insomnia and would stay up till atleast 4-6am with only about 3 hours of sleep the night before. This happened long before I was precribed the amps, it happens when I abstain from them for any given time, and probably will happen even If i completely stop forever. For a while it was my antidepressants that gave me insomnia as well, but like I said, I'm just the type of person who cannot sleep easily. Alot of my insomnia is often due to anxiety that occurs when laying in the dark just thinking (hence the benzos). The melatonin I've been taking is http://www.luckyvitamin.com/020525128096.html

Which combinations of effects of my hypothetical benzo are the ones that make it impossible. Im willing to try one that has most of what I said and a few drawbacks, as long as its not knockout pills/highly addictive

 

[bingalpaws]

I wouldn't say there's no hybrids per se. I don't like how that list I posted shows them as specifically anxiolytic or specifically hypnotic, in my experiences there is significant overlap. Hell the page may even specify that the denoted attribute is just where that benzo's the strongest, while not implying it doesn't possess the other characteristics. Don't get me wrong, some are definitely more hypnotic subjectively, but I've never used one that wasn't part hypnotic, part anxiolytic, etc, if that makes sense.

 

[bingalpaws]

you mentioned no amnesia (retrograde amnesia is common on all benzos as far as I know), no dependency issues, etc, stuff that's pretty much what benzos do, so I don't think you're gonna really get anything too close to what you described.

I'm not familiar with that brand but, as long as it's as described, it should be fine and I don't see any reason it couldn't be used sublingually. The only drawback is I'd presume a sublingually-designed pill would dissolve quicker, and they're usually flavored. Also, they're small - if those are 'normal' size pills you're gonna have a mouthful of binders and inert ingredients along with that miniscule 1mg melatonin concentration, so it's probably not as convenient to take sublingually but I don't see any issues that'd stop you from doing it successfully.

 

[f13nd]

they have vit b6 and something else with the melatonin i think.
I know all benzos affect memory but I was wondering if any were effective in other areas and less memory affecting. its cool tho, I guess ill just stick with lorazepam, maybe get a higher dose

 

[narutokun]

http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm this link says that Lorazepam is an anxiolytic, another chart I read on here yesterday said it was a hypnotic. Neither says its both. confusion.


I have a question about which Benzo would be right for my symptoms (And I'd rather not ask the doc because my questions may sound a bit incriminating)

I currently have lorazepam 1.5mg script, it works alright but doesn't quite feel perfect. A major problem I have with this drug is the effects it has on your memory (amnesia).

Heres what I'm really looking for : A benzo that doesn't have an intense effect on the memory, has a low addiction potential (even if I were to abuse it I don't ever want to be dependent on a CNS depressant), will be able to help me sleep at night but also if taken during the day wont just knock me out, instead will have an anxiolytic effect. All in all, I want to deal with anxiety (Not a daily problem so daily dosage not necessary), deal with insomnia, keep as much of my memory as possible and not become addicted. I hope what i'm describing isn't just some imaginary benzo lol.

I wouldn't say there's no hybrids per se. I don't like how that list I posted shows them as specifically anxiolytic or specifically hypnotic, in my experiences there is significant overlap. Hell the page may even specify that the denoted attribute is just where that benzo's the strongest, while not implying it doesn't possess the other characteristics. Don't get me wrong, some are definitely more hypnotic subjectively, but I've never used one that wasn't part hypnotic, part anxiolytic, etc, if that makes sense.

I think you are both a little bit off there.
Benzodiazepines modulate GABA receptors and each benzodiazepine doesn't bind exclusively to one binding site alone. Each binding site may be more responsible for anxiolitic effects, another for muscle relaxation, another for hypnotic effects, etc. There's no such thing as 'hybrids' or whatever, that concept just doesn't make sense in this case. What really exists are benzodiazepines that have a higher affinity to a specific binding site, therefore having a determined desired effect more pronounced than another. You're not gonna find an hypnotic ONLY benzodiazepine or something like that, I'm sorry. 8(

 

[mewmew2]

I think seroquel does the best job with the least side-effects, at least for me. On 50mg it's a nice 8 hours, then I'm awake and feeling normal (well as normal as I ever do). I can't get that right now though. Also, I take 4 mg's of klonopin a day and still can never ever sleep with something additional...lately it's been things like tylenol pm which may put me to sleep a few hours, then I'm back up again wide awake. I also drink a decent amount in the evenings, which may explain the rebound insomnia.

 

[bingalpaws]

I think you are both a little bit off there.
Benzodiazepines modulate GABA receptors and each benzodiazepine doesn't bind exclusively to one binding site alone. Each binding site may be more responsible for anxiolitic effects, another for muscle relaxation, another for hypnotic effects, etc. There's no such thing as 'hybrids' or whatever, that concept just doesn't make sense in this case. What really exists are benzodiazepines that have a higher affinity to a specific binding site, therefore having a determined desired effect more pronounced than another. You're not gonna find an hypnotic ONLY benzodiazepine or something like that, I'm sorry. 8(

I fail to see how that's different than what I said... I said that any specific benzo may be more prominent in a specific area, but all affect the gamut of benzo areas, just to varying degrees. But there's no benzo with, say, zero anxiolytic effects. Kinda confused, are we in agreement or am I wrong?

 

[narutokun]

^I don't know. I was only trying to explain it without oversimplifying things.
I dunno maybe I missed some of your previous posts?

in my experiences there is significant overlap

That quote didn't give any solid scientific explanation to what you were stating besides your own experiences so that's why I posted a further explanation detailing mechanisms of action.
Something wrong with that or what?

 

[bingalpaws]

haha no nothing wrong, I just thought you said that I had missed the mark, but I had previously said (regarding differences amongst hyps/anxios/etc):
"I don't like how that list I posted shows them as specifically anxiolytic or specifically hypnotic, in my experiences there is significant overlap."

meh I'm kinda chillin with this jim beam cat right now so maybe I'm misinterpreting it, I was reading that as me saying they overlap, then you saying I missed that, and then just stating they overlap. Confusion is likely stemming from this end so no worries

 

[bingalpaws]

(okay I think I get it now. You said I didn't give mechanisms, which is correct, I didn't because I don't know them, and am glad you provided that explanation. But your original one implied I was off base and, despite not providing the mechanisms behind my assertation, I still feel it was accurate the way I originally stated, just not given any scientific explanation like you kindly provided. I think it was me being annoyed I thought you were implying I was wrong, when in fact you were just bolstering what I said. Or maybe not, I'm confused now, gonna smoke a cig and have another drink, I'll catch up here in the am )

 

[Psych0naut]

ok, the following are hypnotic benzos, right?
nitrazepam, triazolam, oxazepam.

I found the bellow info on wikipedia:

"nitrazepam is most often used to treat short-term sleeping problems (insomnia).

Triazolam (marketed under brand names Halcion®, Novodorm®, Songar®) is a benzodiazepine derivative drug. It possesses pharmacological properties similar to that of other benzodiazepines, but it is generally only used as a sedative to treat insomnia.[1]

(oxazepam) Indications: It is an intermediate acting benzodiazepine with a slow onset of action, so it is usually prescribed to individuals who have trouble staying asleep, rather than falling asleep."


am I correct in assuming that if I were to take these during the day, they would knock me on my ass? I currently take 3 mgs of xanax during the day (spread out from about 6 am to 4 pm) and then 3 mgs of xan at night. I've tried seroquil years back, and really didn't like it cause it made me get all fat and shit.

what I'm thinking of doing is talking to my doc about staying on xanax or klonopin during the day for my anxiety, and a hypnotic benzo at night for sleep. Does this make sense? Or do I have this completely messed up in my sleep-deprived head?

also, which of the hypnotics would be best for insomnia? which would ya'll pick?

{whew} sorry that was so long, hope it made a bit of sense. thanks, BL'ers!

Nitrazepam and Triazolam are indeed hypnotics, oxazepam isn't though. I don't know where you got the info from that said oxazepam was mainly used to help fall asleep, but that's bullshit. It has much less sedative effects than the majority of other anxiolytics, like all benzodiazepines it also has hypnotic properties, but they are nectlectible compared to actual hypnotics. Oxazepam is a true anxiolytic. If they would knock you out when taken during the day depends on their dose, but they will certainly sedate you much more than an equivalent dose of Xanax, that's why they're used as sleep-aids. If I were you, I would try out a less addictive, longer acting anxiolytic, and if none of them work, than go back to Xanax.

I never heared of clonazepam being prescribed for anxiety, I have a huge patient prescription information leaflet of Rivotril taped to my wall, and it only mentions being indicated for seizures, and I know of Rivotril only being prescribed for seizures, even Roche markets it solely for that indication. If it works effectively, than why not use it though, always do what's best for you.

I would really avoid taking benzo's throughout the day, and on top of that, throughout the night as well, your tolerance will rise very rapidly and you'll end up with a very, very nasty addiction. I would first try other options and use benzodiazepine hypnotics only as a final resort.

To answer your last question, even though I disadvice you to take even more benzo's, the best hypnotic benzodiazepines on the market are; Rohypnol, Loramet, Normison and Mogadon to keep you asleep throughout the night, for when you often wake up in the middle of the night. The best benzodiazepines on the market to knock you out, for when you have trouble falling asleep are;Dormicum, Dormonoct and Triazolam. All of both the former and latter are more to much more addictive compared to normal benzodiazepines, the anxiolytics especially. The knock-out benzo's are the worst since they cause a massive rise in tolerance and extremely fast physical addiction.

ok, my doc appointment is tomorrow, and I need some advice as to what to ask for (see 2 posts above for specifics as I'm not gonna type all that shit out again and risk boring people a second time.)

If anyone has any recomendations or advice, or could at least tell me if the conclusions I'm drawing are correct (once again, see 2 posts up), I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

See my reply

I've never understood the logic behind letting someone who's an insomniac stay on amphetamines, but again, I guess that's why I'm not a doctor!!

For your melatonin, what type/dosage? If your issue is falling asleep, which is typically mine as well, I'd highly suggest a sublingual pill. I'll typically take the majority of a 1mg (just rip off a ~20-30% chunk usually) sublingual pill, crunch it into a bunch of chunks, and then lay down with it under my tongue. Usually does the trick for normal usage, definitely doesn't do much when I have bad insomnia bouts though.

It's actually a common thing to do among ADD/ADHD specialists, to give people who have ADD/ADHD a small dose just before bedtime to help them fall asleep. It prevents rebound which would otherwise often cause insomnia. My ADD specialist suggested it to me as well because of my insomnia, though fortunenately I'm doing fine now while tapering down my benzo dosage after a long period of medical use for insomnia.

Oh and the benzo you described in that last post doesn't exist, nor do any that are similar to what you describe, as far as I'm aware. Others may know more on that though. Benzo-like things like ambien (or is it soma?) may be closer but I'm not too knowledgable on them.

I've had Stilnoct as well as the generic on prescription, and it's very, very sedating. It's not meant for anxiety AT ALL.

 

[narutokun]

(okay I think I get it now. You said I didn't give mechanisms, which is correct, I didn't because I don't know them, and am glad you provided that explanation. But your original one implied I was off base and, despite not providing the mechanisms behind my assertation, I still feel it was accurate the way I originally stated, just not given any scientific explanation like you kindly provided. I think it was me being annoyed I thought you were implying I was wrong, when in fact you were just bolstering what I said. Or maybe not, I'm confused now, gonna smoke a cig and have another drink, I'll catch up here in the am )

Yeah I'm kinda fucked right now I was on a shooting coke/plugging mph binge and haven't slept anything for a few days. And now I'm on 4mg alprazolam, 1mg flunitrazepam, booze and 5mg of resperidone. To see if I can get some sleep. So yes I'm sorry if I was rude I think I didn't interpret your post correctly, we're all good. I'm glad that you appreciated the technical information. I'm off to crash on my bed now.
laterz

 

[Toilet.Wand-XTreme]

Ambien+****
Lunesta***
Rozerem**
Trazadone-Dry Mouth -__-

Better yet, Take some adderall and not feel tired for a couple days. You might see large flocks of birds in the road and hear voices though. At least I did.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

Embrace insomnia, do not fear it.

Best advice ever regarding insomnia for myself. I learned to come to peace and learn to live with it, rather than against it. All of the sudden my life became much less stressful.

All medications have their own slew of problems, and give you false hope only to crush your hopes.

The way I look at it is like this: When someone has no arm or leg, they don't go around trying to find a cure or whatever, they learn to live with it and change their lifestyle around it. I do the same thing, I just learn to live with it.

 

[f13nd]

Yeah I'm kinda fucked right now I was on a shooting coke/plugging mph binge and haven't slept anything for a few days. And now I'm on 4mg alprazolam, 1mg flunitrazepam, booze and 5mg of resperidone. To see if I can get some sleep. So yes I'm sorry if I was rude I think I didn't interpret your post correctly, we're all good. I'm glad that you appreciated the technical information. I'm off to crash on my bed now.
laterz

Daaamn I wish I had your medicine cabinet..