Gibberings CVII - Bubbles are Comforting

[Marmalade]

Whaaaaat?

167 statements were altered retrospectively. it absolutely CAN be investigated further. The reasons for those alterations NEED to be established and people can be culpable, as can those directing the tone and direction of the investigation which led those officers to alter the statements.

there's VERY clear evidence which absolutely could lead to individual culpability.

It's nonsense that this can't be investigated with direct results and outcomes being achieved. It's very good example of something that can be

 

[parttime crackhead]

Obviously it can be investigated further. It won't be though. The police have the option of A) Investigate & find themselves guilty of various shit or B) Do not investigate & remain 'innocent until proven guilty'. Not really a hard choice.

That was always really going to be the outcome from the beginning. So in essence it was really just a massive waste of money. "Yes you were right, now accept my apology & go home quietly. Leave the good old boys in blue alone".

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Whaaaaat?

167 statements were altered retrospectively. it absolutely CAN be investigated further. The reasons for those alterations NEED to be established and people can be culpable, as can those directing the tone and direction of the investigation which led those officers to alter the statements.

there's VERY clear evidence wish absolutely could lead to individual culpability.

It's nonsense that this can't be investigated with direct results and outcomes being achieved. It's very good example of something that can be

Yeah, what would we do in this blame culture if we didn't pin this event that happened 23 years ago on someone who's presumably retired and possibly even dead? And why not? It's not like it's difficult to piece together information from that long ago... O wait, it's really difficult. Especially when those responsible for altering the information aren't compliant, and new evidence isn't exactly forthcoming. Let's also not forget that the chances of anything happening to those responsible are miniscule - damn you burden of proof! O, and they've already tried to prosecute the main police officers responsible for the mess and the cover up, and failed. This has already resulted in huge changes to crowd control...

 

[Marmalade]

Cameron should be strongly suggesting that they investigate, thereby leaving them no option really.

I understand the Govnt can't order the police to investigate given process and procedure, but he could strongly suggest it occur. He could also give assurance about a further investigation being 'fair' and possibly commit to it being audited independently, given the history of the case.

he's not doing any of that.

[edit]
They only do what they want because they're protected by procedure, especially when it comes to being able to choose if they investigate themselves or not, it's no surprise such decision making might be abused by the police. it can be avoided though, with direction from the govnt. that they choose not to, turns an obvious flaw into a fucking big gaping hole in the justice system

It's a choice. Cameron should be issuing direction for prosecution, there's a very clear opportunity for direct culpability, and it not be some huge wild goose chase.

To not do so is to uphold the current flaws of the system.

 

[parttime crackhead]

If they know the specific amount of statements that were altered & what was altered about them then they must have access to the original statements, no?

Marmalade - You seem to be missing (even though I know you are aware) that it is entirely up to the police if they investigate or not. Strong suggestions from Dave won't change their decision. Change the system for the future? Yes, of course. Expect the police to do the honest/good thing just now? C'mon to fuck.

If they are "protected by procedure" then what will "direction from the government" do? They are still protected by the same procedure, regardless of government direction.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

It's a choice. Cameron should be issuing direction for prosecution, there's a very clear opportunity for direct culpability, and it not be some huge wild goose chase.

To not do so is to uphold the current flaws of the system.

Yeah, good luck with that. It's totally upto the Prime Minister to come down from his position and medal in the procedure of the courts, isn't it? He can't insist on a prosecution. What people can do, however, is progress a private prosecution. They have done this, and they failed. Retrials have been refused, and they will continue to be refused. To engage in this futile effort will only entrench the police in their current position. What needs to be done, is the government needs to strike while the iron is hot - the next time the police fuck up. Not 23 years after the fact.

 

[Marmalade]

Yeah, what would we do in this blame culture if we didn't pin this event that happened 23 years ago on someone who's presumably retired and possibly even dead? And why not? It's not like it's difficult to piece together information from that long ago... O wait, it's really difficult. Especially when those responsible for altering the information aren't compliant, and new evidence isn't exactly forthcoming. Let's also not forget that the chances of anything happening to those responsible are miniscule - damn you burden of proof! This has already resulted in huge changes to crowd control...

Okay. We disagree. Hugely and fundamentally. I undertstand investigation procedures fairly well and have been involved with a few myself. Documents are signed, chains of command ... it's an easy one to investigate, unlike something like the say the current News International/ Press problems. I could give a fuck whether people have left the force or not. Assumptions should not be made about it's invalidity on the premise. that's ludicrous.

I don't believe in just forgetting about war criminals and those responsible for genocide either, but meh ...

it should be relatively easy to assess culpability in the Hillsborough case

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Since 1990 there have been over 1400 deaths following police 'contact'. Not one single officer has ever been convicted of manslaughter. Not one.

So much for the clear up rates eh?

 

[Marmalade]

Yeah, good luck with that. It's totally upto the Prime Minister to come down from his position and medal in the procedure of the courts, isn't it? He can't insist on a prosecution. What people can do, however, is progress a private prosecution. They have done this, and they failed. Retrials have been refused, and they will continue to be refused. To engage in this futile effort will only entrench the police in their current position. What needs to be done, is the government needs to strike while the iron is hot - the next time the police fuck up. Not 23 years after the fact.

I've already said the same. I think he CAN state his opinion on it though, that's his job. the police can obviously choose to ignore it. simple.

To not issue his concern and state the opinion that if it were within his power to investigate he would, it's a political cop out

 

[Marmalade]

Since 1990 there have been over 1400 deaths following police 'contact'. Not one single officer has ever been convicted of manslaughter. Not one.

So much for the clear up rates eh?

Officers can be prosecuted for going against procedure though. So even if it's procedural misconduct, that in turn leads to questioning the cause and how that was influenced and why.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Okay. We disagree. Hugely and fundamentally. I undertstand investigation procedures fairly well and have been involved with a few myself. Documents are signed, chains of command ... it's an easy one to investigate, unlike something like the say the current News International/ Press problems. I could give a fuck whether people have left the force or not. Assumptions should not be made about it's invalidity on the premise. that's ludicrous.

I don't believe in just forgetting about war criminals and those responsible for genocide either, but meh ...

it should be relatively easy to assess culpability in the Hillsborough case

Establish culpability with a view to what? Like I said you will never establish enough proof to overcome reasonable doubt to gain a prosecution, and the CPS would never bring such a prosecution any way. Furthermore most of the victims of the disaster have already settled any civil case they could have brought by accepting small pay outs a long time ago. The police involved have almost all retired, so it's not like there are jobs on the line here either. I think blame has already been established in society... if you'd like to suggest what could possibly change or what will be achieved following yet more investigations, please go right ahead. Personally I think spending what will likely be millions of pounds on 'investigating' this will not change anything, when the Taylor report already addressed the changes that had to be made to avoid it happening again.

 

[TheSpade]

About a decade.
Not sure if they still sell them?

Vintage. One of a kind..

OK, well thanks for telling me about your antique phone but it doesn't really help me come to a decision. :D

 

[Myshkin]

it's a political cop out

Am I the only one who picked up on this, or just the only one childish enough to mention it?

Though I think you're quite right that Creepy Dave should at least express his concern at these findings and make moves to ensure that this kind of mockery of justice never happens again.

Though forget further official investigation that's sadly likely to go nowhere if it were ever to happen; how about somebody just obtains the addresses of the officers involved and fires off a mailshot in the Liverpool area?

Suits me.

 

[TheSpade]

Does anyone else get dodgy Indian companies calling you to tell you that you were in a car crash and that you're due compensation? They're chancing bastards, when you ask them for more information about this car crash they insist you were in they can't give any details and say "you must tell me sir, can you not remember the crash". Tomorrow I'll play along, giving it "aye my neck still hurts and my arms aching, how much money can I get?". If it's not them it's those shitty automated messages "this is an important message from blah blah blah", so fucking important you got a machine to call me or "Hello, would you like free whatever the fuck" just as I type this another call came through. Cunts.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Does anyone else get dodgy Indian companies calling you to tell you that you were in a car crash and that you're due compensation? They're chancing bastards, when you ask them for more information about this car crash they insist you were in they can't give any details and say "you must tell me sir, can you not remember the crash". Tomorrow I'll play along, giving it "aye my neck still hurts and my arms aching, how much money can I get?". If it's not them it's those shitty automated messages "this is an important message from blah blah blah", so fucking important you got a machine to call me or "Hello, would you like free whatever the fuck" just as I type this another call came through. Cunts.

I get texts about it all the time. It's not even anything to do with being on any list or anything, they just try every number there is.

 

[ponch]

Spade. I would suggest to you sir, that you maintain the level of your inbox once in a while.

 

[brimz]

Establish culpability with a view to what? Like I said you will never establish enough proof to overcome reasonable doubt to gain a prosecution, and the CPS would never bring such a prosecution any way. Furthermore most of the victims of the disaster have already settled any civil case they could have brought by accepting small pay outs a long time ago. The police involved have almost all retired, so it's not like there are jobs on the line here either. I think blame has already been established in society... if you'd like to suggest what could possibly change or what will be achieved following yet more investigations, please go right ahead. Personally I think spending what will likely be millions of pounds on 'investigating' this will not change anything, when the Taylor report already addressed the changes that had to be made to avoid it happening again.

Spoke like a Politician

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Spoke like a Politician

Or anyone with the slightest knowledge of the English legal system?

 

[brimz]

Or anyone with the slightest knowledge of the English legal system?

No more like a Politician .

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

No more like a Politician .

Find me one politician that has said anything vaguely similar today. I suspect 'policitian' is just a label you are using for someone who says something based in fact that you don't want to hear. Amirite?