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Fentanyl is garbage, and it ruined heroin.

I stopped doing H years ago after I left the east coast any my cousin died from that shit in OH. I did enjoy eating a fent patch or two with my buddy a long time ago. It was pretty incredible. I assume pharm grade stuff is far better than the creepy unknown shit they use to stretch H. Thankful to only know them separately and to have lived through it!
 
Black tar heroin isnt bad, or at least didnt used to be. Its better injected, smoking it kind of sucks. It is not great however, was a significant user but never a giant fan. Every once in a while it close to home.

Pharmaceutical fentanyl was ok, never great. Tar is, or was, better than fentanyl ever was. Never had fentadope though. Its hard to abuse to my liking without simply losing consciousness. I used inject the 100ug/hr patches whole (they actually contain a total of over 10mg fentanyl base, which is over a gram of morphine), multiple times a day, but this was ontop of 380mg methadone/day which is very difficult to penetrate (thats the equivalent of 4 grams of morphine a day, thats like a spoon full of pure morphine a day). So yeah the patches penetrated that. Don't know how it works as a standalone drug, but its cold. That said if i had fentanyl in front of me id take it (no IV anymore) right now (or actually id wait a few weeks if possible, mainly to let this mild tianeptine withdrawal pass -- i only use opioids occasionally but often taken them for long enough stretches where i encounter mildish withdrawal).

What does west coast street fentanyl look like? A powder? What color? Never seen west coast fentadope? Does it look different than east coast fentandope?

How often is tar contaminated with fentanyl?

Also, cant one still order #4 off the dark net these days? Or does this only refer to street heroin?
 
nznity said:
i burned my fingers smoking crack haha my hands were clean. i needed to clip my nails aswell meh, being a junkie makes you so lazy.
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I was just busting your balls 🤣

Still though becareful. When i was a junkie i was paranoid about infection and stunk like rubbing alcohol all the time. To this day i associate the smell of isopropyl alcohol with shooting up.
 
negrogesic said:
I was just busting your balls 🤣

Still though becareful. When i was a junkie i was paranoid about infection and stunk like rubbing alcohol all the time. To this day i associate the smell of isopropyl alcohol with shooting up.
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bro i've shot up like 5000 times at least, never had an infection even when i missed shots. Shooting up pure opioids is a total different game. Also cocaine did more damage to my veins in 3 months than 5 years of shooting morphine ever did.
 
draculic acid69 said:
I'm telling you fentanyl wds are fucking horrible.much worse than others.stupid idea.
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Yeah my bad. I totally spaced on the fact that a more potent opioid is going to be more far more unpleasant once the receptors are empty, regardless of half-life wishful thinking.
 
Deru said:
So do you mean fentanyl is more dangerous because there is a smaller window of error for an overdose?

If you take 25 mcg/day (0.025 mg) of fentanyl via parenteral administration that is roughly 2.5 mg of morphine (MME).

At the correct dose, I still fail to see how it's more dangerous than diacetylmorphine.

I will reiterate this again, it stems from a lack of knowledge of how to dose properly, and with illicit fentanyl, the inability to know exactly what the purity of any given sample is and if it's a specific fentanyl analogue.

But if we're discussing pharmaceutical grade fentanyl to pharmaceutical grade diacetylmorphine, then it becomes an error in dosing first and foremost.

As for recreational benefits, fentanyl is poor at euphoria and the high. It only succeeds in it's ability to relieve withdrawal symptoms for cheap - if dosed correctly.

Just because someone does a subjective "tiny" bump and felt like they were going to overdose means very little - the correct dose of fentanyl is almost microscopic. A lot of this is based on drawing incorrect conclusions trying to compare a similar line of fentanyl to a line of heroin, while trying to compensate on the fly by making the line much smaller than one would for heroin, a "tiny" bump would still be technically too high of a dose depending upon purity - and then assuming correlation equals causation with their experience thereafter. It's called anecdotal for a reason. They're failing to acknowledge the exact same thing would happen if they dosed diacetylmorphine too much as well.

But yes, the window and margin of error is much smaller with fentanyl than with diacetylmorphine. This is where the danger lies.
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You start your post trying to say I’m wrong and end it by agreeing with me. Yes the margin of error is indeed smaller, no matter what form we talk of.. Just because it’s a cheap option to kill withdrawal has little to do with how deadly it can be.

-GC
 
G_Chem said:
You start your post trying to say I’m wrong and end it by agreeing with me.

-GC
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I started my post trying to clarify what you meant. I never tried to say you were wrong.

I think me trying illustrate the caveat that pharmaceutical fentanyl can be used safely with the proper knowledge and dosing is somehow being interpreted as an argument that fentanyl is not dangerous.

Maybe it's a lost cause in this thread, I don't know.

In the attempt at unbiased drug information, it seemed something worth mentioning

What's a shame is that in all the rhetoric, not with you but with the other member, my original meaning was lost:

Both illicit diacetylmorphine and illicit fentanyl both have risks and both can be dangerous.
 
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The therapeutic window of fentanyl is actually significantly larger than that of diacetylmorphine.

The therapeutic window is simply the range between the minimum effective concentration to produce analgesia and the dose where respiratory depression sets in.

The problem is its potency and in some regards its pharmacokinetics. Overall you might say it would be safer than heroin if it were equipotent to diacetylmorphine on a mg to mg basis. If fentanyl possessed the respiratory depressant properties of diacetylmorphine overdoses would occur at an even higher rate.

A user who is able to inject the equivalent of 10mg of pure fentanyl might not be as lucky with an equianalgesic dose of heroin (which would be around half a gram of pure diacetylmorphine).
 
negrogesic said:
The therapeutic window of fentanyl is actually significantly larger than that of diacetylmorphine.

The therapeutic window is simply the range between the minimum effective concentration to produce analgesia and the dose where respiratory depression sets in.

The problem is its potency and in some regards its pharmacokinetics. Overall you might say it would be safer than heroin if it were equipotent to diacetylmorphine on a mg to mg basis. If fentanyl possessed the respiratory depressant properties of diacetylmorphine overdoses would occur at an even higher rate.

A user who is able to inject the equivalent of 10mg of pure fentanyl might not be as lucky with an equianalgesic dose of heroin (which would be around half a gram of pure diacetylmorphine).
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Thank you! I was starting to think what I was saying was going to be a lost cause here.

The theraputic window is wider when it's being used by people who know how to use it - and when they have the proper equipment to deal with such small amounts.

In real life recreational use, that becomes the problem - along with the unknown purity from batch to batch, which does make the margin of error significantly less when you start dealing with illicit fentanyl.

It mainly comes down to our inability to subjectively be able to quantify weight that small - and it's especially difficult for people with no reference to believe a few small granules could be more than enough when it comes to fentanyl so they do what looks like a "small bump" to them, but that alone could easily be enough to overdose.

It appears like that is where the illicit heroin/fentanyl markets are heading, they honestly are much better at it now than they were years ago. There hasn't been real heroin, or even fentadope as described on here, it's been full fentanyl at probably less than 5 to 10 percent purity in any given batch for years in my city.

Typically 10mg/hour over 16 hours of this illicit fentanyl is enough to give similar results to 500 mg/day of illicit heroin #4.

The dosing is what makes the difference in the end.
 
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HeadphonesandLSD said:
Famous last words. Be careful with this attitude because tolerance is a funny thing. There are days where it just seems lower for whatever reason and the usual dose even from a known source like a pharmaceutical can put you in the grave. It happened to me though I managed to avoid death, it has happened to my friends, and most of those people have relocated to a place 6 feet under. Most of them didn't even use the needle and managed to do this through the nasal or oral ROAs.

Not trying to be a dick just don't want to see them take away another soul. I'm not a person that got clean and hates opioids now. I still love them more than any other class of drug on Earth. I'll still play with them from time to time in the privacy of my own home. All that has changed is I have a healthy respect for them now.
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I couldn’t agree more. I recently experienced my tolerance drop the other day. It was scary to say the least.
Fentanyl added is also the reason for ppl I’ve known to OD.Some lived to tell about it and some unfortunately didn’t.
 
Deru said:
Specifically, due to your lack of knowledge, you improperly used the fentanyl and over dosed with the fentanyl - literally took too much to lead you to feel like that. An overdose, itself, is a spectrum and doesn't mean unconscious or death.

For someone like you, you're right. Fentanyl is definitely more dangerous than heroin if you're unwilling to be open to learn - so keep on keeping on.

Heroin gives a much larger window for error when it comes to proper dosing.
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You're an incredibly ignorant douchebag who only gets away with your condescending behavior because this is the internet. Considering you were there and watched me use it, please tell me more about how "unwilling to be open to learn" I am & how "improperly" I used a drug (consindering i had no idea what it was until after I had done it, and thankfully if I had used it 'correct' as I would have heroin, I probably would have died, but thankfully I took a tester shot).
 
negrogesic said:
The therapeutic window of fentanyl is actually significantly larger than that of diacetylmorphine.

The therapeutic window is simply the range between the minimum effective concentration to produce analgesia and the dose where respiratory depression sets in.

The problem is its potency and in some regards its pharmacokinetics. Overall you might say it would be safer than heroin if it were equipotent to diacetylmorphine on a mg to mg basis. If fentanyl possessed the respiratory depressant properties of diacetylmorphine overdoses would occur at an even higher rate.

A user who is able to inject the equivalent of 10mg of pure fentanyl might not be as lucky with an equianalgesic dose of heroin (which would be around half a gram of pure diacetylmorphine).
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I appreciate what your getting at but therapeutic window doesn’t correlate with euphoria. In the end we can all agree almost everybody, bar a few individuals, likes to use opiates that make one feel good.

So fentanyl’s therapeutic window is larger, this simply means the effects used in medicine like analgesia and sedation happen at dosages farther away from OD than Diacetylmorphine.

BUT... And I’ll say this til I die. Fentanyl’s lack of euphoria will cause many users to push it until they are close to overdose simply because it’s not giving them what they want.

The effects we use these drugs for don’t often fall into “therapeutic effects” and things like euphoria are unwanted side effects.

I stand by my statement that fentanyl is inherently more dangerous.

-GC
 
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I agree fentanyl is more dangerous in respect to the way its sold on the street in unidentifiable amounts. Fatal overdoses have skyrocketed ever since illicit fentanyl was introduced into heroin, pills, etc.

Mine was only a technical note in controlled conditions.

The pharmacokinetics of fentanyl also make it dangerous in uncontrolled settings.
 
negrogesic said:
I agree fentanyl is more dangerous in respect to the way its sold on the street in unidentifiable amounts. Fatal overdoses have skyrocketed ever since illicit fentanyl was introduced into heroin, pills, etc.

Mine was only a technical note in controlled conditions.

The pharmacokinetics of fentanyl also make it dangerous in uncontrolled settings.
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Ok fair statement.

How about this? For those looking to use recreationally Diacetylmorphine is the safer option. Those using to look for therapeutic purposes, such as analgesia or sedation, fentanyl is the safer option.

I think we can both agree upon that. I know I remember fentanyl often made one nod off strongly but they always came back after 10-20mins of intense snoring. When someone goes out that hard and quick on heroin it’s usually a much bigger reason for concern.

I just remember folks really pushing the boundaries simply because it doesn’t “feel” all that great when your used to using high purity heroin or the old school oxy’s.

I should mention my experience is purely with pharmaceutical fentanyl in various forms.

-GC
 
G_Chem said:
I appreciate what your getting at but therapeutic window doesn’t correlate with euphoria. In the end we can all agree almost everybody, bar a few individuals, likes to use opiates that make one feel good.

So fentanyl’s therapeutic window is larger, this simply means the effects used in medicine like analgesia and sedation happen at dosages farther away from OD than Diacetylmorphine.

BUT... And I’ll say this til I die. Fentanyl’s lack of euphoria will cause many users to push it until they are close to overdose simply because it’s not giving them what they want.

The effects we use these drugs for don’t often fall into “therapeutic effects” and things like euphoria are unwanted side effects.

I stand by my statement that fentanyl is inherently more dangerous.

-GC
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It does have a great euphoria but it's just not a full spectrum hit.like it's missing a tiny bit.and it's just so compulsive.you start craving more even if you're still fukd up.it doesn't have to wear off before craving kicks in
 
draculic acid69 said:
It does have a great euphoria but it's just not a full spectrum hit.like it's missing a tiny bit.and it's just so compulsive.you start craving more even if you're still fukd up.it doesn't have to wear off before craving kicks in
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Maybe it does for some. I always used opiates to help me function day to day, kill my anxiety, give me energy for work, etc.

Pure heroin was the best of them all when it came to allowing me to feel “normal” at least in the beginning.

Fent definitely felt lacking and was VERY sedating in comparison. I guess there’s it’s therapeutic profile for ya. Thing is though, I used opiates to treat things most people don’t normally use opiates for.. And they worked far better for these things than any of the other tons of drugs I’ve tried.

-GC
 
Yeah i agree fentanyl is cold, lights out.

Fentanyl is incredibly specific for the MOR with little activity at the DOR or KOR (with ratio of like 1:2500:500 respectively). Morphine is more like 1:50:150. Thus fentanyl is cold and lights out. Surgical feeling. Feels blueish green if it were a color.

The MOR and DOR are the desirable sites, more so the MOR. The DOR has some anxiolytic and antidepressant properties. The KOR is least desirable and is associated with dysphoria and psychotomimetic effects (salvia is an ultra potent and selective KOR agonist). The binding ratios make fentanyl not a desirable euphoriant. Cold etc.

Still i would hardly describe fentanyl as dysphoric but it is certainly cold. I used to inject 20mg at a time and sort of zonk out. I once woke up on the bathroom floor and i had in some delerium carved some patterns in my chest. Given that it is 5 times as selective for the undesirable psychotomimetic KOR receptor relative to the positive DOR receptor means it can get pretty trippy and cold at high dose.
 
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