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Fear of death and psychedelics / dissociatives.

Ismene said:
But that's simply a delusion isn't it.
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It isn't as simple as that, it is a delusion in a certain sense, but in another sense it is an accurate statement about the metaphysical basis of egoic identity - because ego doesnt really exist in the first place

thinking that one is dead during ego death is a delusion in the sense that the physical body has not died, and life continues after the ego death trip has ended, so when the ego death trip comes to an end the initiate realises that he isn't really dead

However thinking that one is dead during ego death is a reflection of the way that ego appears from the higher-dimensional psychedelic perspective. From the perspective of timeless oneness that is revealed in the peak psychedelic state of consciousness, there is no egoic separateness (there is only a timelessly unified plenum), which is why ego has this tendency to proclaim its own death or nonexistence when it adopts this perspective during a trip.

So you could say that the ego death proclamation is a delusion, but you could also think of it from the other way round that the original proclamation of egoic identity (the thought/belief that "I exist" per Descartes) is the real delusion, which is actually corrected by the ego death experience.

The facticity of egoic existence (ie the truth or falsity of the claim that "i exist") is nuanced, and not a simple case of either the ego exists or else it doesnt exist. Ego exists in a certain limited way, and ego doesnt exist in a certain limited way. So the whole issue of delusions versus true beliefs is a misleading way of characterising the issue
 
lovepsychadelics said:
No max your just a douche respect the actual journey taken by those who are terminal. Take back what you have said. Otherwise all your posturing is null and void.
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Don't be abusive man, that's not what he said at all. Nothing he said was remotely disrespectful to the terminally ill.
 
Really? Not disrespectful to those actually dying? Yet he compares his ego death experience and dismisses the deaths of those in a terminal ward as being "the deaths of others". Xorkoth what do you know about the real death and dying process. Don't protect Max he needs to learn some respect. If you agree with him your own life experience in this field is obviously fairly minimal. I suggest you volunteer at a palliative care facility and actually witness first hand people dying before either of you can compare "ego death" to the actual death of real people. Abusive? Max_freakout and his entire comment is abusive and disrespectful for those who are going through this process. Respect is earned and should be given to those who deserve it. Better report this post to a moderator hey guys!
 
I'd appreciate my comments to be quoted in full context as well in future. I really doubt many of you have even seen someone actually die. Let alone say held the aorta of your best friend while other medics try and stem the blood loss from the extremities in the vain hope of saving the guys life. How about the guy who came into the ED department with multiple stab wounds after getting drunk with a group of "friends" and being stabbed by the same group of friends. He bled out and we could do nothing to save him. That is real life experience of the death and dying process.
 
You're right, I don't know anything about it first hand, I've never seen someone die, but Max isn't dismissing their deaths, he specifically just said that you have not experienced dying first hand, because you haven't died yourself (first hand is experiencing something yourself - you have experienced other people dying first hand). I'm sorry you have had to deal with those experiences and I'm very sorry for those people, as I am sure he is. I have not experienced such a thing, and I'm glad I haven't. But we're not talking about that really. We're talking about the subjective belief that one is dying. No one is trying to say the experiences are even the same, or that ego death is anything like dying in specific experience.

I'm honestly tired of talking about this, I'm just repeating myself at this point. I feel like it's impossible to even mention the term "ego death" without certain people arguing forever with the same comments over and over about the semantics of the term, and often straight up scoffing at and trying to devalue the experience. Many people have had the experience and most I've spoken with agree that the term is a valid description, because of the reasons I have mentioned a number of times including my previous post in this thread. I'm sorry that these comments have disturbed you, and I understand why they have, given your life experiences. Really I am. But Max simply saying that you have not personally experienced dying (as well as saying you HAVE experienced death second-hand in a way that most never have), as well as trying to say that ego death is a valid term because the experiencer believes he or she is dying... that is not disrespectful of anyone, and in fact was quite respectful to you and your experiences; it's just an opinion and an attempt to communicate that opinion. It's supposed to be a discussion which is approached from both sides with respect. Disagreement does not equal disrespect, however calling someone a douche and posting shit about them in another thread does equal disrespect.
 
Xorkoth said:
as well as trying to say that ego death is a valid term because the experiencer believes he or she is dying...
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But the fact is that they arn't dying - it's nothing more than a delusion. People with vivid imaginations will see what they want to see particularly when they are high on drugs.

That doesn't mean what they say must automatically be taken as gospel. It's perfectly valid to point out that it's nothing more than a delusion and that not everyone has to share the same delusion. No matter how many times someone tells me that Allah exists or that "One day you'll think you are dying on psychedelics" I know that it's never, ever, ever going to happen. There is more chance of walking to the moon in my bare feet than me being so delusional I think I'm dying on acid.
 
Well if you don't have the experience of believing you're dying then you had a different experience... perhaps a feeling of being freaked out but ultimately realizing you're okay. I've had that experience a lot too, many more times than I have experienced ego death.

I will say that through that experience (ego death) I gained so much more than feeling like "I guess my mind is stronger than these other peoples' minds" or "that was scary for a little while". The process set off a reaction in my psyche that became something profound and wonderful and humbling. Go ahead and be fine with never experiencing it, doesn't bother me. What does bother me is your implication that people who have that experience are somehow just being pussies or weak (not your disagreement itself). You've made that implication on a number of occasions including in this thread, and it gets under my skin. I'm not being weak, it's a valid and beautiful experience I (and many others) have had that means a lot to me. Please don't try to invalidate it.
 
Xorth an apology is in order from both you and max and a bit of humility. You both need to get off your high horses. Ismene is the only person here talking sense. All the best with your delusional state of mind Max and Xorth because that is all it is a delusion.
 
BTW acceptance of the events that have occurred and acceptance of the fact you could do no more than you did is the only way to deal with the level of trauma I am describing. Do I have a fear of death, hell no! Not after what I have seen. It has taken many years, psychologist, psychiatrists all of whom have no idea about what your explaining to them to finally come to that conclusion. I don't need psychologists or psychiatrists. Being the best person you can be, accepting the events that have occurred and moving forward in life while maintaining a positive mindset is the only solution. You work at it daily. Take each day as it comes. Until you grasp that fact yourself you are just spouting BS.
 
Please tell me in what way I am on a high horse right now or have been disrespectful to someone, maybe a quote or something. I'm responding to the only abusive language I have seen used in this thread, as a moderator, and I'm also trying to convey my opinion on this topic, in a respectful way. I disagree with what Ismene is saying and I disagree with your interpretation of max_freakout's comments to you, that doesn't mean I am on a high horse, it just means I disagree with you. It doesn't mean I'm looking down on you or anyone. It's a discussion, people don't all agree on things. It has nothing to do with my opinion of you or anyone else. You guys are the ones calling other people delusional, and calling someone names (you towards max - I'm talking about your post in the narcissism thread that I hid).

I do believe this thread has gotten off topic, I'm having flashbacks to the "what is ego death" thread, which really isn't what this thread was originally about.

The last part of your last post is precisely the way I try to live my life, man. I agree with you 100% there. :) I just don't think I have anything to apologize for here. I don't imagine Ismene feels I or max owe him an apology either. When people disagree it's just a disagreement, as long as they're being respectful. Even if you disagree fundamentally, that's okay, you'll always find people who disagree with you fundamentally. There is no need to take it personally.
 
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There is a distinction between analytically coming to a conclusion, and taking the implications of that conclusions personally. It is not max' or Xorkoth's responsibility if others like you lovepsychadelics take offense to the implications.

For example saying that seeing someone else dying is not the same as dying yourself is a simple fact and it hardly needs any analysis. Lovepsych I get that working in a palliative care facility is profoundly emotional and it can do a lot to your feelings and ideas about dying, and nobody is trying to take that away from you. But the fact just remains that you have not died or you would not be here to join the conversation.
Let's avoid too much escalation in this topic based on getting those things all mixed up in similar ways.

Again, nobody is trying to hurt your feelings I'm sure, and I don't like the idea of people taking sides rather than plain agreeing with statements, posts or perspectives... that said I agree with Xorkoth that no apologies are due.
And apart from that, I'd generally appreciate it if everyone could avoid taking things personally that weren't meant that way, since they were obviously not formulated that way.
Feelings, even heartfelt ones are not fair to project onto arguments inappropriately. And it is especially unfair to blame others if that results in conflict.

I hope we can all be understanding of each other and suggest we get back on topic, I'm afraid I don't have time to comment on the topic's subject because I didn't really have time to write this post in the first place but it seemed necessary. I will comment and give my personal views / opinion tomorrow or as soon as I have time.
 
Only read the first page but must say: not this shit again. Did nobody learn from the last terribly long semantics driven, ego fueled back and forth dick sizing contest that was the ego death thread? Lmao.
 
Xorkoth said:
Go ahead and be fine with never experiencing it, doesn't bother me. What does bother me is your implication that people who have that experience are somehow just being pussies or weak (not your disagreement itself). You've made that implication on a number of occasions including in this thread, and it gets under my skin. I'm not being weak, it's a valid and beautiful experience I (and many others) have had that means a lot to me. Please don't try to invalidate it.
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The "pussy" remark was a light-hearted response to max in the other thread claiming that because I've never had an ego-death that I'd never really tripped and that it would be "too much" for me.

My argument isn't that certain people can't experience one, it's the claim that everyone can experience it if only they tripped hard enough. That the ego-death is only for those special people out beyond the final frontier going where no man has boldly gone before. And the implication that because we havn't had one we must be pussies who don't know how to trip. That's the stone on my shoe :)
 
Ah, turnabout... I did't see it from that side. I get that then, I'm sure some people feel that way about it.
 
I dont ask for an appology for myself. I ask for it in terms of even comparing the ego death experience to that of the dying process of actual people. Those people are the only ones who have knowledge of this process. Taking a heap of drugs and having a ego death experience is nothing more than a drug induced psychotic break from reality. To compare ego death to the actual dying process is like comparing chalk and cheese.
 
Get a grip on reality... or maybe that is the issue. Most don't and few have life experience to make a qualitative assessment.
 
Max_freakout I'm sorry about the offhand comments but never confuse the "ego death" experience with or even compare it to the actual process of death and dying. Hope I've made my point abundantly clear. Peace and love to all. Love Psy.
 
Please just smoke copious amounts of DMT until they tell you to stop. Fear of death=gone.
 
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