Fear of death and psychedelics / dissociatives.

[max_freakout]

So why do you always attribute the effects of "real" death to the imaginary death? You always talk about how "scary" the ego-death is - "I felt terror at dying.." "it is terrible knowing you are going to die".

If it's got absolutely nothing to do with real death then why are you so afraid of it?

a more interesting question would be: what is so scary about real death?

Ego death is the thought that "i have died/gone permanently insane/ceased to exist etc."

humans are innately hardwired to fear any threat to personal existence, it's the same fear you would feel if a hungry lion attacked you, the fear that you will imminently cease to exist. Fear of dying triggers the fight/flight mechanism, emergency survival mode.

 

[Ismene]

Yeah but we've established that ego-death and real death have no relation to each other. So why link the fear that most of us have of real death to something that you experience while tripping that isn't the same thing?

 

[max_freakout]

ego-death and real death have no relation to each other.

This ^ is incorrect, ego death is centrally related to bodily death, they both share in common the idea of dying/reaching the end of life. The difference between ego death and bodily death is that ego death is mental, bodily death is physical.

why link the fear that most of us have of real death to something that you experience while tripping that isn't the same thing?

They are the same thing - fear of losing one's life/personal existence.

In both cases (egodeath and real death) the fear is essentially the same, because it is the fear of losing personal existence. Whether you are tripping too hard and experiencing ego death or being attacked by a lion, the fear is based on the innate drive towards preservation of personal existence, what ego wants above all is to carry on existing into the future. Both ego death and bodily death represent a threat to continued personal existence.

 

[Ismene]

This ^ is incorrect, ego death is centrally related to bodily death

Even tho with the imaginary "ego-death" you are as far away from death as you can possibly get?

The difference between ego death and bodily death is that ego death is mental, bodily death is physical.

Obviously bodily death is mental too.

In both cases (egodeath and real death) the fear is essentially the same

Even tho you know the ego-death is utterly harmless and you don't die?

 

[max_freakout]

"In both cases (egodeath and real death) the fear is essentially the same"

Even tho you know the ego-death is utterly harmless and you don't die?

During ego death you dont know that it's harmless, at the time it happens you think it is fatal, you think that you have died or reached the end, so it's the precise opposite of "harmless", it is terminally harmful. It is only afterwards when you realise that you are not actually dead.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Work in a palliative care ward. First hand experience of the dying process and actual death of people you have been caring for far outways taking a drug. Whatever maxfreakout. How many people you heard cheyne stokes? Some of you have no idea...

 

[Ismene]

During ego death you dont know that it's harmless, at the time it happens you think it is fatal, you think that you have died or reached the end, so it's the precise opposite of "harmless", it is terminally harmful. It is only afterwards when you realise that you are not actually dead.

Is this just the first time you have the ego-death or is it every time you have it? Don't you get used to the idea that you're not going to die?

If you're sat there thinking "I'm going to die" it's probably a good bet that you arn't. I've seen a couple of people die and what happened wasn't like in the movies where they gasp "Tell my boy I wish I could be at his bar-mitzvah..". All that happened was they blacked out, fell to the floor and urinated on themselves.

 

[max_freakout]

Work in a palliative care ward. First hand experience of the dying process and actual death of people you have been caring for

In a palliative care ward you witness the dying process of other people, but not your own. So it isnt really "first hand experience" of dying.

 

[Ismene]

There is one major difference, in a palliative care ward you witness the dying process of other people, but not your own.

But we've already established ego-death is nothing like real death - it's just some mommas little pussy version of death where you don't die and an hour later you feel fine again.

 

[Xorkoth]

Is this just the first time you have the ego-death or is it every time you have it? Don't you get used to the idea that you're not going to die?

If you're sat there thinking "I'm going to die" it's probably a good bet that you arn't. I've seen a couple of people die and what happened wasn't like in the movies where they gasp "Tell my boy I wish I could be at his bar-mitzvah..". All that happened was they blacked out, fell to the floor and urinated on themselves.

It's happened to me 3 times. Though I would think that I would have known better the second and third times, it wasn't so. My thought process began like that, oh, no, I've just taken a drug, I'll be fine. But then the thought process led to the certain, inevitable conclusion that I was dying, different logic each time that made the previous experiences unable to convince me I would be fine... I had to fight, then finally accept it, and then at some point I realized I wasn't going to die and that I had just been tripping really hard. Or in two of those cases, I actually blacked out and came to a short time later, and realized I was alive. Yet, I still had to struggle and fight and accept my imminent death. Those feelings were real, though I am not claiming that the experience is anything like it will be when I actually die. Nevertheless, the experiences forced me to confront the certain belief that I was being annihilated, which I believed utterly.

I'm not sure why you have to refer to attach "momma's little pussy" to people's experiences of this type. Can you just accept that some people have had had this experience, and it was real to them at the time, and meaningful? I'm not making this shit up man, it's silly to just deny the experiences of others point blank, when they're telling you they have experienced something. I'm not an idiot, I didn't misconstrue it for something else, the experience I just described is the experience I had and that's what's known as ego death, because of the fact that your ego thinks you're dying and despite it not being true, or the same as real death, you go through the process of dealing with that. And that's the experience.

 

[max_freakout]

But we've already established ego-death is nothing like real death

Really?? You couldnt possibly "establish" this ^, because nobody knows what physical death is like (ie nobody lives to tell about what it's like to die). So we haven't "established that ego death is nothing like real death" because we could not possibly establish such a thing. What is real death like? Nobody knows who is still alive.

A source of confusion in these conversations lies in the fact that we don't really know what "dying" means, there is equivocation about its meaning. The meaning of "dying" in the specific context of ego death is about the ending of life (however there is similar vagueness and equivocation about the meaning of "life"). But at the end of the day, ego death is not a trivial semantic issue, rather it is a profound, mind-shattering and life-changing experience.

The central feature of ego death is that you *think* you have died (in the specific sense of death as "reaching the end of life", note that this is different from the sense of death as "cessation of biological functioning").

Ego = thinker.

 

[max_freakout]

Is this just the first time you have the ego-death or is it every time you have it? Don't you get used to the idea that you're not going to die?

this ^ is ordinary-state based logical thinking, but ego death doesnt happen in the ordinary state, it only happens in the intense psychedelic altered state, when ordinary-state based logic about the nature of personal existence tangibly dis-integrates. The thought that "I am dead" results from the intense alteration of the state of consciousness, "I am dead" is a self-report about the situation that the ego death initiate finds himself in when he encounters the ego death thought-vortex during a strong psychedelic session.

It all comes down to the identity of the "I" in the belief that "I exist", this identity is seen from a different perspective (point of view) in the psychedelic experience - the perspective of 4D/eternity/timelessness. From this perspective, the "I" doesn't exist.

When the lower dimensional mental conception of selfhood (ego) meets the higher dimensional ego death thought-vortex in the psychedelic state, it realises its own nonexistence relative to the higher dimension.

A shadow on a wall is unreal, it is a projection in two dimensions of a three dimensional object, = a lower-dimensional projection of a higher dimensional object. In the same way, the ego is unreal, it is a projection downwards from a higher reality. Ego death happens when the light makes the shadow disappear.

 

[Ismene]

So we haven't "established that ego death is nothing like real death" because we could not possibly establish such a thing.

We've established it because you don't die. You're still alive. That makes it nothing like real death because in real death you're not alive at the end of it.

The central feature of ego death is that you *think* you have died

But that's simply a delusion isn't it. Other people think they can hear aliens talking to them when they're high. How can you think you've died when you've tripped a thousand times and come back alive every time? Surely the penny must drop sooner or later..."Dude, I think I've died...whoop...nope...I'm just tripping again!".

but ego death doesnt happen in the ordinary state, it only happens in the intense psychedelic altered state

But surely after you've experienced it half a dozen times you get the hang of it and realise you arn't going to die?

 

[max_freakout]

But surely after you've experienced it half a dozen times you get the hang of it and realise you arn't going to die?

the crucial factor is not the number of experiences, but rather it is the degree of intensity of the psychedelic effect, and the amount of time spent at that intensity. Ego death dynamics happen in the extreme deep intense psychedelic experiences, when personal mental self-control is overwhelmed by the psychedelic effect.

 

[Xorkoth]

We've established it because you don't die. You're still alive. That makes it nothing like real death because in real death you're not alive at the end of it.

That has nothing to do with the subjective experience though. For all we know, actually dying might be a really similar experience, but of course with a very different outcome. Outcome does not equal experience. An experience is something someone experiences, it's a subjective thing and not necessarily related to the actual reality of the situation.

Note that I don't actually believe the experience of ego death and actually dying actually is similar, I would bet they're quite different. But again, like I said, that's not the point. The ego death is a subjective, psychological and emotional experience that is believed by the experiencer to be real death, hence the term ego death. I think the term is quite fitting and rings with anyone who has actually had the experience. I can understand not getting it if you've never experience that, but you have to face that you simply haven't had the experience, really, you're not in much of a position to talk about experiences you've never had.

But that's simply a delusion isn't it. Other people think they can hear aliens talking to them when they're high. How can you think you've died when you've tripped a thousand times and come back alive every time? Surely the penny must drop sooner or later..."Dude, I think I've died...whoop...nope...I'm just tripping again!".

Yeah, it is a delusion, but that doesn't make the experience any less real during it. Your experience is your entire reality, so while you're believing it, your reality IS that you've died or are dying, and so the resulting psychological/emotional ordeal is very real for you.

But surely after you've experienced it half a dozen times you get the hang of it and realise you arn't going to die?

Nope, because the situation is different each time it actually happens. Yes, I have had trips where I started to hit that loop but then I caught myself, thought of my previous experience, and realize I was just freaking out. But the first time it happened to me, I simply thought maybe that was some sort of adverse reaction. Then the second time, I believed I had overdosed. Then the third time, it was simply 100% apparent to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had gone too far and had undone reality. Of course that wasn't really happening, but all of me believed it was at the time. The reasons were different and compelling to me at the time beyond any doubt, even though similar things had happened to me before. My mind was so altered that it became possible for me to believe such a thing, even when I had believed it before and realized afterwards that I had been wrong.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

In a palliative care ward you witness the dying process of other people, but not your own. So it isnt really "first hand experience" of dying.

So you have worked in a palliative ward? Max_freakout you are a disrespectful ass. Ego death is bullshit I am really pissed at your flippant response. You disrespectful know all know nothing! What the hell kind of ego trip are you on buddy? To dismiss the actual death of other people in such a manner. You have no idea. You really prove that you have no life experience. To dismiss the pain and suffering of the terminally ill, those who are actually going to die from a terminal illness and yet you put your drug induced "ego death" as being something greater and beyond that of people actually dying in real life. WOW! Fuck you Max_Freakout get a life.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Ismene you fucking rock!

 

[lovepsychadelics]

For shits and giggles half asleep I thought "wonder what kind of response I got from my first hand experience of the pain and suffering I posted about" indeed the job I have to go and work in 6 hours.... Low and behold here is Max_freakout dismissing the suffering of the terminally ill. In my opinion euthanasia is a blessing. Max_freakout Wow, just wow you have no concept. I'm disgusted and appalled. Thanks... now in 6 hours I will actually go and care for people facing REAL DEATH.

 

[max_freakout]

To dismiss the pain and suffering of the terminally ill

You completely misunderstood what i said, i didnt "dismiss" anything, i pointed out that you used the term "first hand" incorrectly, because working in palliative care doesnt allow you to experience dying first hand (ie subjectively, your own death). You see other people dying, but you dont experience your own death, ie you don't see what its like to die from the first-hand, personal subjective point of view.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

No max your just a douche respect the actual journey taken by those who are terminal. Take back what you have said. Otherwise all your posturing is null and void.