Fear of death and psychedelics / dissociatives.

[hawaii]

Hi there everyone.
This post could be endless but I'd do my best to keep it short and effective.

Question is: can I (we) overcome the fear of death once "forever" and live our life freely?
And if so, are psychedelics / dissociatives helpful with the process? And again, if so, which ones would you suggest and more important, do you think you really achieved a point of an almost fearless existence?

I'm asking this because since I've started asking myself such (trivial, I know) questions, my life became "heavier" to the point I'm so scared of the end that I can't even take a plane (and my work is touring Europe and DJ, so you can imagine how neurotic I can become sometimes)

Thanks guys!

D.

 

[Solipsis]

I was never that scared of death to begin - the normal amount I suppose - with but yes DMT especially helped me overcome whatever was left... up to some extent that is. I don't think completely overcoming it is realistic or healthy, it seems to me that it could easily lead to manic and reckless behavior.
Then again, you only need to overcome the fear you are immediately aware of, which in your case is apparently so much that it is a bother to you.

I think that psychedelics can help but one of the reasons they can seems to be exposure therapy: they can make you feel as if you are dying, have died and are beyond death, like you are reborn, and even as if you are dying and reborn many times, even cycling through it every second. Those are pretty extreme things to experience, but what is also extreme is that it seems you can more or less get used to it. It doesn't really matter whether or not near-death experiences are the same as what you feel when you die, because it is not about being able to handle death but about being able to handle the prospect of death while living.

I would check the ego-death thread if I were you, because that is pretty relevant to this. Mushrooms, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, 4-AcO-DMT, maybe DPT those sorts of psychedelics are in my opinion best for the 'occasion', but LSD can also definitely facilitate this.

Maybe milder psychedelic trips can also help with the fear of dying but I don't think it would work quite as well as 'simulating' it.

Yes I do think it is possible to gain enough momentum to be relatively carefree in an existential or ontological context, but I suspect it could also make ontological insecurity in a person worse if he/she cannot handle the frequently basically traumatic nature of near-death experiences and OOBEs... and that would be a basis for mental illness.

All of this is serious shit, not for the faint of heart and mind. Be super careful because I do believe this can change your life even much much more than the fear of death can impact it.

 

[GolemGolem]

I think that psychedelics can help but one of the reasons they can seems to be exposure therapy: they can make you feel as if you are dying, have died and are beyond death, like you are reborn, and even as if you are dying and reborn many times, even cycling through it every second.

All of this is serious shit, not for the faint of heart and mind. Be super careful because I do believe this can change your life even much much more than the fear of death can impact it.

^ yep.
Death has never been a fear of mine, mine was/is failure and shame, death seemed like a lovely escape at times for me. Still I've had trips where I was dying and then dead a few times and it's deeply disturbing most times as it's happening. The death is normally that I've ODed or I've developed a strong allergy something almost plausible, I feel my body shut down, it hurts. Then all my bad habits get thrown in my face in a spectacular fashion. Then if I'm lucky I'll feel at one with something, and move on from there, often with renewed enthusiasm to not be such a fuck up.
When I trip hard these days those things rarely come up. I'm lucky I don't have lasting trauma from those rough trips. I'm healthier, happier, and more productive than I used to be, but I don't know how much is drugs/luck/failing enough to just get over it/growing up/getting a better work ethic/practiced situational apathy or any of my other coping and learning strategies. I strongly prefer whimsical fun mysticism type trips that don't have much to do with me and they are mostly what I get these days.

Be aware that it can be a real ass kicking, and ass kicking can leave scars, and doctors who want lots of money. Who knows, might even help you get on planes.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Hmmm, if the ibo clinics can charge $10grand for their services I bet I am not unreasonable to ask for airfair, room and board, food, and $100/day. You can hire MGS to help facilitate a NDE...at least until I get my "The How To Have A Good Death Guide" finished. Yessir, what you need is a guided 5-MeO-DMT trip. Here is what came out of mine...

I had a situation that I enjoyed being as-is, in every way, become something I didn't plan on...and it was awesome it did so. But then I started having 'intentions' for that unexpected surprise to 'go how I wanted it'....forgetting to just experience it and let it be as it was....and then sure enough I was disappointed when it did not go that way. The disappointment was profound to say the least. I grabbed 10mg or so 5-MeO-DMT and went in with the 'mindset' that wherever it all means I shall learn to be at peace again.

Well, to say the VERY least the experience was almost as profound as my ibogaine experience, ibogaine was rebirth and getting to do it all over again right. This 5-MeO-DMT trip was death, and it was forever, and I had to accept the death for all it was because there was no changing the death but I could change how I practiced the death and be at peace with all that was, and all that never would have been (not counting the endless cycle of death and birth, I was there too) This was a ++++ to put it mildly. I had the ultimate trip.

And most important I learned how to have a good death...welcome it every day because the universe may have that in store...be at peace with death whenever it comes, remember that your death could be a tragic one, and 'too early.' Remember that life isn't just yours, remember Oneness and that we are all that, remember that (leaving out the concepts of 'afterlife') that we live on in all the people we know and touch, we live on by sharing out experiences and knowledge with others...when they learn that knowledge and experience....they practice it in their lives...your life touches others when they react to you and modify their thinking or behaviors in response...and through that we will live eternally even in death.

And if you do die a tragic death that was 'too soon' remember that the pain others feel in response is still a life lesson for them. Therefor, be at peace with death because that much is certain to happen...live every day to the fullest, learn every lesson possible, change your mind as much as you can so you don't get stuck in a death of regret and lost opportunity.

And that lesson of death was then taken to the next logical place....my circumstance that I loved but was happy with it as it was going...changed and instead of then experiencing the change and loving it for what it was, my 'ego' stepped in and 'decided' how that change should occur (expectations) that were not met, resulting in profound disappointment.....so the 5-MeO-DMT trip reorientated my thinking back to accepting it as it was, not for what I wanted it to be....and I began to enjoy circumstances of 'what is' even more than I did before...and sure enough days later circumstances changed again and circumstances became even MORE awesome that I could have ever envisioned. And I'm loving the evolution!

If you want to trip over a life circumstance...just practice letting the circumstance flood your mind, take in the pain the beauty and all other aspects, ask your God, or Gods or your Nothingness, or yourself, or the universe, or whatever flavor you like to give you the wisdom to gain the most from these sensations and to be able to apply them to 'real life' in a very meaningful way when you come down...when you come down practice those lessons to the fullest.

And low and behold a few days later...

I had another near death experience, just yesterday a person carelessly drove his car into mine (Head on) as I was driving prudently, and driving the speed-limit. Thankfully this is all in the accident report and the guy admitted fault. I was going 50 MPH too and my Arab Oil loving SUV is totaled but beyond the pain and trauma I am ok. If I had been in a smaller car, or had been a few more inches... based on how my SUV looked, not to mention what the officers and first responders told me...I am very fortunate to put it mildly. My gorgeous face is still that..... and I can still play guitar because those air bags are no joke.

Oh and 5-MeO-DMT and 'NDE' are now fully synonymous. One in the same... I can say that first hand.

 

[Kittycat5]

Interesting topic. But, to be perfectly honest, this overcoming fear of death has always bothered me in some way when speaking about psychedelics. Well, to put it better, the feeling that psychedelics let you experience death. Obviously no one will know death until it happens. It could be absolutely nothing like a psychedelic experience. Perhaps it is bliss, pain, nothing. You may come back immediately as yourself in another body, a different person altogether, or a millipede. Maybe heaven and hell are real, maybe you rot in a box.

Basically, what I am saying is it is unknown and we maybe deluding ourselves into thinking drugs can somehow replicate this unknown. That is how I feel, from my personal experience at least.

 

[Ismene]

Tripping on psychedelics is absolutely nothing like death, that's just something Tim Leary made up to sound serious when talking to judges. It's like any other urban myth about psychedelics - they spread because people are clueless and want to believe it because it sounds deep and mysterious. Rather than say "i was tripping my tits off" you can say "I was like experiencing death while still being alive dude". It's bullshit.

Epicurus said probably the best thing about fearing death I've ever heard:

If death is bad, for whom is it bad? Not for the living, since they’re not dead, and not for the dead, since they don’t exist. His argument can be set out as follows:

1.Death is annihilation.
2.The living have not yet been annihilated (otherwise they wouldn’t be alive).
3.Death does not affect the living. (from 1 and 2)
4.So, death is not bad for the living. (from 3)
5.For something to be bad for somebody, that person has to exist, at least.
6.The dead do not exist. (from 1)
7.Therefore, death is not bad for the dead. (from 5 and 6)
8.Therefore death is bad for neither the living nor the dead. (from 4 and 7)

Epicurus adds that if death causes you no pain when you’re dead, it’s foolish to allow the fear of it to cause you pain now.

A second Epicurean argument against the fear of death, the so-called ‘symmetry argument,’ is recorded by the Epicurean poet Lucretius. He says that anyone who fears death should consider the time before he was born. The past infinity of pre-natal non-existence is like the future infinity of post-mortem non-existence; it is as though nature has put up a mirror to let us see what our future non-existence will be like. But we do not consider not having existed for an eternity before our births to be a terrible thing; therefore, neither should we think not existing for an eternity after our deaths to be bad.

 

[LucidShroomDmtier]

i have more of a budhistic opinion on the matter , im not afraid of death as natural way alll things csease to exist. but more of the ways one may die (torment,fearsome etc) like from hunger thirst disease being killed etc . And finally im afraid of reincarnation even more cause its a cicle of endless torment.but the more i live the more samsara looks plausible to me . even more im afraid of wasting my time forgeting the joy of breathing

 

[elucidator]

Having a NDE or an ego dissolution experience on psychedelics would be the fastest way to get past the end of life anxiety you are having, but those experiences do not occur often, and they become somewhat harder to produce if one consciously 'tries' to make them happen.
I reckon noticeable progress could be made without having ego dissolution or a NDE.

A large psychedelic research organization called MAPS have just released the findings of the first bit of research concerning the therapeutic use of LSD in 40 years, and the study just happened to be on this topic you have brought up right here.

some links to some articles about the study.

MAPS article -press_release_lsd_study_breaks_40_years_of_research_taboo/

Psychedelic Frontier article - maps-completes-first-new-therapeutic-lsd-study-in-40-years/

A link to the study
http://www.maps.org/research/lsd/Gasser-2014-JMND-4March14.pdf

The study seemed to be highly successful with no adverse reactions and showed a fairly consistent level of anxiety reduction, and even though the test subjects were experiencing the end of life anxiety from having advanced stage illness, pretty much anyone who has any form of end of life anxiety could benefit from having LSD in the right way imho. It sure has for me, and I no longer fear death one bit.

 

[psykedenlitenment]

A few things -
It seems a majority of my mushroom (cubes) result in me dealing with death in a curious or intrigued fashion. I can't seem to get through it or anything, but just get deeper each time. Granted it's been almost a year since my last shroom intake. It's very strange and dysphoric, but not to bad trip extent, but very uncomfortable.

Also, is this the same 'fear' Hunter Thompson describes??

 

[phuckingnutz]

Well, you can either: Fear death, live every waking moment, in fear, wondering if it's your last and then die, orrrr....you can LIVE every moment and then die.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

.... how many people have any of you witness die? I mean been there when they Cheyne-stokes? Had to handle the corpse and put it in a plastic zip bag for the morgue? Had to clean the excretion? Given them cares as they are in end of life stage, Changed the CADD pump with the narcotic infusion? Shit... WTF has the abstract concept got to do with the reality? Euthanasia? How do you want to die? How real is the concept to you? How many people have you witness die? How old were they? What was the circumstance? Me I have lost count, all ages, sexes, races, creeds... Death is life and life is death I don't need any drugs to tell me that.

Fucking bullshit... Ismene for once I agree with you, this thread is total crap. How many have had to hold a guy down because the cerebral met's are that bad he's actively experiencing tactile, olfactory, visual and auditory hallucinations? Had the family there while you try and prevent this guy from doing god knows what due to the brain Ca. That is distressing shit. That can give you PTSD. Fucking taking a psychedelic allows you to relate how???? That is just ONE example of a persons death.

 

[phuckingnutz]

.... how many people have any of you witness die? I mean been there when they Cheyne-stokes? Had to handle the corpse and put it in a plastic zip bag for the morgue? Had to clean the excretion? Given them cares as they are in end of life stage, Changed the CADD pump with the narcotic infusion? Shit... WTF has the abstract concept got to do with the reality? Euthanasia? How do you want to die? How real is the concept to you? How many people have you witness die? How old were they? What was the circumstance? Me I have lost count, all ages, sexes, races, creeds... Death is life and life is death I don't need any drugs to tell me that.

Fucking bullshit... Ismene for once I agree with you, this thread is total crap. How many have had to hold a guy down because the cerebral met's are that bad he's actively experiencing tactile, olfactory, visual and auditory hallucinations? Had the family there while you try and prevent this guy from doing god knows what due to the brain Ca. That is distressing shit. That can give you PTSD. Fucking taking a psychedelic allows you to relate how???? That is just ONE example of a persons death.

Good point. I personally have seen no one die, but I CAN say that BEING dead still doesn't scare me. It is the TRANSITION between alive and dead that DOES scare me some...not enough to quit "living" though.

So it's not so much BEING dead...it's DYING.

 

[hawaii]

Thanks for all the replies, they're all meaningful to me.
I'll inform myself more, but more importantly I'll do more personal experience.
As I said, at this point of my life I want to be at peace with mortality / fear / anxiety but I alos think these feelings are part of the process.
Maybe I'm lucky to be "stuck" on thinking now, that's a stimuli to get a "liberation", but again, we'll see if that's possible or just mere human illusions?!
At the same time I don't think I'm a faint heart and mind person.

Fact is, I do have a lovely life and my job is just like a dream. But now my fear got me to a point I can't even take planes for my gigs (actually ended up going on a train once for 12+++ hrs and that's a waste of time and energy!!) and enjoy the moment.
I feel like I deserve to be calm, happy and wiser but my negative thoughts don't allow me to be like that.

Again, not asking for the ultimate reply here from you guys and somehow I agree with the ones who have a more materialistic vision but I think there's gotta be a way. There's gotta be a way to overcome the fear of death.
I'll inform myself more about DMT or 5-Meo-DMT-

What about dissociatives tho?
Or even non-drug methods (maybe transcendetal meditation?)?

 

[Ismene]

Ismene for once I agree with you

I'll go back and have a rethink then love, I must have gone wrong somewhere

But yeah, if I thought real-life death was going to be like tripping I wouldn't be too worried. Unfortunately it isn't. And rather than sitting there in the prime of your life feeling euphoric tripping, real death will more likely than not mean you are laid there in miserable physical pain, struggling to breathe, desperately trying to avoid choking on the few bites of food you can swallow, unable to shit or piss without pain and feeling as bad as you've ever felt in your entire life. I can't see anyone genuinely thinking "You know, this reminds me of tripping on mushrooms when I was 20!".

There's gotta be a way to overcome the fear of death.

I imagine that's been the human cry for the last 2 million years hawaii. I don't think you can overcome it can you? You can come to terms with it but sooner or later you're going to lose everyone you've ever loved and then have to say goodbye to everything you've ever known. It's not easy to deal with - which is why from the time of early humans we have had ideas of the "afterlife" and other assorted fantasies of surviving your own death.

And about the DMT thing - as someone who'se been a devotee of oral DMT for years, it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with death. And all the people who claim it has have just misread Rick Strassman who theorised some bullshit about "DMT being released at death". Which is the biggest load of baloney I've ever heard. No evidence for it whatsoever - and see if you can find a single near-death experience that sounds like a typical oral DMT trip - "Colours were exploding around me, jewels were floating in the air and I was up dancing feeling as euphoric as I've ever felt in my life"

maybe transcendetal meditation

It depends what you want to believe doesn't it - if you want to believe psychedelics are the same as dying then that might work, if you want to believe in TM then that might work, if you want to believe 72 virgins are waiting for you then that might work. I find it hard to believe in things like that tho.

 

[GolemGolem]

What about dissociatives tho?
Or even non-drug methods (maybe transcendetal meditation?)?

Well I don't mean to be flip, I saw my mom die of cancer, granddad of alzheimer's, grandma of cancer, Nothing I've been through can compare (mine end up with me coming to and going about my life like normal, able to wash off my own fluids), though I'm sure I'll get my chance in the coming decades... Still euphoria is the last word I'd use for my death trips, they are terrifying and they physically hurt a great deal of the time. There isn't any beautiful colors, things going muted and grey then blind.
Only disso that has given me a death trip is DXM. The others I've tried K/MXE/3-MEO-PCP have been too comfortable and anxiety free for that sort of thing.

Though for practical advice, I say proper normal exposure therapy and maybe a little xanax.

 

[Foreigner]

At higher doses where ego dissolution happens, you can overcome the fear of death, yes... because at those higher doses you see that the construct of "you" is not even real, and therefore nothing really dies.

In my case, I had three near death experiences in my life before I ever touched psychedelics, one of which required resuscitation. Personally I look forward to death, just not necessarily the dying part.

 

[tryptamine-tripper]

A lot of people are just being too literal about the hallucinogen/"death trip" connection. Of course we don't have any way of knowing what actually dying is like, but the term "ego-death" is used because, in those experiences, you basically leave behind everything you know (even your conception of "you"). THAT is why it's "like dying (then being reborn)". I'm certain actually dying will be vastly different from any of my psychedelic or dissociative trips, but some of those trips have still prepared me for death in that I have already left behind all I know, albeit temporarily, a handful of times, and come out the other side better for it, and, indeed, not afraid of death- I certainly don't want to die anytime soon, I'd like to have many decades left in this life, but when I do die, I'll be able to accept it.

 

[hawaii]

Sorry for taking this old thread of mine back but my "problem" is still there.

Last friday I had to take the plane to go to Sweden and DJ.
Then the program was to stay there for 10 days and celebrate my 25th birthday with friends in an amazing location (Norbergfestival)

Nothing of this happened, I got strong anxiety for the plane and not get into it.
I have more gigs in Europe now, and I'll go by train (can't keep losing gigs and money, of course)

Fact is, my psychotherapist sent me to another doctor to get Etizolam prescribed and I have a vial of it.
They suggested me to take it before getting to planes but I don't want to take it.
The reason is the same: it can relieve the symptoms but my fear of death/unknown will still be there with the whole frustration it causes.

Again, we all know flights are the safest way to travel but my fear is still there.

Please guys, suggest me something.
It's the second time this happens (I lost a gig in Paris for the same reason) and now I feel like I have only TWO choices.
Keep on beign frustrated / ignorant and find excuses or see "death" and "fears" in their faces and overcome it.

Of course I think the latter choice is the best/wiser one

Hope you'll help and support me.

Thanks1

 

[wayab]

 

[ricardo08]

No evidence for it whatsoever - and see if you can find a single near-death experience that sounds like a typical oral DMT trip - "Colours were exploding around me, jewels were floating in the air and I was up dancing feeling as euphoric as I've ever felt in my life"

I don't think anyone would claim this sort of experience to be a near death experience...

I pretty much agree with your point but the experience of perceiving a separation from your body and the feeling of isolation as something pure and entirely absent from the normal level of reality is going to stir up speculation about this sort of thing, because it is intensely profound to the one experiencing it. We have no evidence to prove that it is in anyway related to death whatsoever, but we also can't be completely sure that it isn't.