Fear of death and psychedelics / dissociatives.

[Cream Gravy?]

My life was permanently altered by a non-drug induced NDE, in my case I had a car accident in my 240sx (if you've ever seen one.... it has no air bags in the 91 model, and it's literally a little metal tin of a car) going at least 80 miles an hour, in which I believe the car rolled (windshield was smashed in, I couldn't see and time slowed down so, so much). When it finally stopped, I was able to crawl out of the vehicle without a scratch. That day, for the first time in my life, I questioned my agnosticism. I felt like I should have died, but there I was, not even needing an ambulance after rolling a tiny vehicle at 80 mph.

Ever since that day, I haven't feared or been concerned with death.

 

[Dawglaw]

I often think about death when I am tripping. I can never focus on the idea of my death, rather I sit around and think about other deaths and how tragic they are. I was at a festival last month and instead of rocking out to the lights, I was sitting there thinking about how useless the War in Afghanistan is and the overall folly of humanity. It wasn't scary, it just wasn't really what I was looking for.

 

[Xorkoth]

Interesting topic. But, to be perfectly honest, this overcoming fear of death has always bothered me in some way when speaking about psychedelics. Well, to put it better, the feeling that psychedelics let you experience death. Obviously no one will know death until it happens. It could be absolutely nothing like a psychedelic experience. Perhaps it is bliss, pain, nothing. You may come back immediately as yourself in another body, a different person altogether, or a millipede. Maybe heaven and hell are real, maybe you rot in a box.

Basically, what I am saying is it is unknown and we maybe deluding ourselves into thinking drugs can somehow replicate this unknown. That is how I feel, from my personal experience at least.

Tripping on psychedelics is absolutely nothing like death, that's just something Tim Leary made up to sound serious when talking to judges. It's like any other urban myth about psychedelics - they spread because people are clueless and want to believe it because it sounds deep and mysterious. Rather than say "i was tripping my tits off" you can say "I was like experiencing death while still being alive dude". It's bullshit.

It honestly doesn't matter in this context whether psychedelic ego death experiences are really anything like death. What matters is that many people have experiences where they believe they are dying, and by living through that and facing it, and by the results of these experiences (when the result is positive, which it often is in the end), a person can be helped in overcoming a debilitating fear of death that plagues their lives. So what if it's not really like death? You still experienced the belief that you were dying, and hopefully came to accept it. That sort of experience, regardless of how similar it is to real death, can be life-changing.

 

[5meoh]

I find when I start to have "the fear" on psychs I just have to "let go" and remember that you can't die of an OD from LSD, Mushrooms, MDA etc (MDA being the exception assuming you know your source and don't go over your limit exponentially).

Once I accept that its my anxiety and not a realistic outcome I find it's easy to forget and get back into the groove. My 3 best things to get out of the mood are

1. A good album
2. Playing some guitar/messing with some instruments
3. IF NEEDED/ a benzo or opiate to relax yourself a bit (not suggesting this if you arent already a user).

In the end, the best advise I've ever given anyone on the matter is quite simple. If you can't handle psychadelics DONT do them. Simple as that, having a few bad trips while experimenting is cool but there is nothing worst than someone who ALWAYS bad trips but yet keeps using. Just gets a little old babysitting someone every time you try to have a good time eh.

 

[5meoh]

nvm, I had two threads open with similar titles, the other was about "the fear" as you can tell.

 

[bernax]

For me psychedelics emphasize the infinite nature of the universe. Time/Life/Death are just limitations in the human psyche

 

[Shee-un]

You don't die, you just change the vehicle of your perception. Too bad we lost the ability to do this consciously while physical body is still alive...

 

[homme]

I read this when I was young:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibetan_Book_of_Living_and_Dying

It deals with death in a very sensible (as in common sense) way.

 

[Ismene]

It honestly doesn't matter in this context whether psychedelic ego death experiences are really anything like death. What matters is that many people have experiences where they believe they are dying, and by living through that and facing it, and by the results of these experiences (when the result is positive, which it often is in the end), a person can be helped in overcoming a debilitating fear of death that plagues their lives.

Seeing as none of us have died how can they know it was like death? Wouldn't it be better trying to get an understanding of the experience rather than simply going on the bizarre assumption that anything a bit unusual must be "like death"? Saying an experience is "like death" with all the massive assumptions that entails takes you furthur and furthur away from any truth you might have gained.

 

[Ismene]

I read this when I was young:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tibetan_Book_of_Living_and_Dying

It deals with death in a very sensible (as in common sense) way.

I can't see much common sense in it homme - it's the buddhist version full of bizarre ideas like "reincarnation" and what have you. Doesn't make anymore sense than the idea that we all have 72 virgins to shag when we die.

 

[Xorkoth]

I honestly am sorry you feel that way man. But I respect it.

 

[max_freakout]

Seeing as none of us have died how can they know it was like death?

Because although none of us have died, all of us know what death is (ie the end of life). People refer to some experiences as being like death because they feel like life has ended = death.

 

[bernax]

i also think that death is the ultimate ego death, the barrier between you and everything else (the ego) dissapears

 

[Ismene]

Because although none of us have died, all of us know what death is (ie the end of life). People refer to some experiences as being like death because they feel like life has ended = death.

But seeing as it isn't death why not try and develop an idea that more truthfully describes the experience?

i also think that death is the ultimate ego death, the barrier between you and everything else (the ego) dissapears

I think the most death-like experience that anyone alive can truly experience is falling suddenly unconscious. No "ego-realisation" or anything - simply blackout until you wake up again and start to realise what happened.

 

[max_freakout]

But seeing as it isn't death why not try and develop an idea that more truthfully describes the experience?

Because there is already an idea that *perfectly* describes the experience, - the idea of psychedelic "ego death" = thinking that one has died during a psychedelic trip. You can't characterise the experience any more perfectly than "ego death", which is why that term has stuck in the common vernacular of trippers.

The contentious issue here is that there are two types of death, ordinary bodily death and psychedelic mental (ego) death. People who have experienced psychedelic ego death can recognise the existence of this second type of death, other people can't (or they can but only as a concept, not as a personal experience). There are two types of person, ego death initiates and non-initiates.

 

[Ismene]

Perhaps there are three types of people - 1) those who havn't had an "ego-death", 2) those who have had an ego-death but don't choose to explain it using hackneyed outdated ideas of "ego-death" and 3) those who've had an "ego-death" and choose to explain it using Learys old ideas from the 60s.

The trouble with using the concept of "death" - either real or imaginary (ego-death) is that it leads you down a blind alley full of bullshit and false allegories about being "born-again" (because you've like, died, dude, get it?). The only way to any kind of truth about the experience is to abandon such lame theories.

 

[max_freakout]

Perhaps there are three types of people - 1) those who havn't had an "ego-death", 2) those who have had an ego-death but don't choose to explain it using hackneyed outdated ideas of "ego-death" and 3) those who've had an "ego-death" and choose to explain it using Learys old ideas from the 60s.

The trouble with using the concept of "death" - either real or imaginary (ego-death) is that it leads you down a blind alley full of bullshit and false allegories about being "born-again" (because you've like, died, dude, get it?). The only way to any kind of truth about the experience is to abandon such lame theories.

It is crucial to distinguish between experience and theory. Here ^ you seem to confuse the two, are you talking about experience or theory?

the experience is a distinct thing from the theory. Ego death experience is identified by the description of "thinking that one is dead".

 

[Ismene]

Seeing as no-one has the remotest idea of what death is like what makes you think a psychedelic experience is similar?

 

[max_freakout]

Seeing as no-one has the remotest idea of what death is like what makes you think a psychedelic experience is similar?

i dont think anyone is claiming that psychedelic ego death is "similar to" actual physical bodily death.

 

[Ismene]

So why do you always attribute the effects of "real" death to the imaginary death? You always talk about how "scary" the ego-death is - "I felt terror at dying.." "it is terrible knowing you are going to die".

If it's got absolutely nothing to do with real death then why are you so afraid of it?