Enlightenment

[swilow]

It wasn't meant to be denigrating. I meant it literally, in that much of the time someone tries to engage with me in a discussion of something they've done no studies on, and just try to make fun of me in any way they can. What's even the point, if they're not even interested in learning anything, and just want to argue.

I do not do that to you and I do not see people "making fun" of you. People may disagree with you but it is respectful. If you do not like how people talk to you, report the post. I personally will step in if I notice this. But do not try and tell me people respond to you in anything like the mocking and arrogant manner you respond to others. Look at the your last few posts in this thread. Every one contains a generalisation about why people cannot see YOUR truth and how they are doing this intentionally. You are creating a fictional and naïve opposition because they are the easiet sort to deny.

People would not reply to you if they were not interested. I am interested. I do not agree with you, I have examined the evidence, I have done inner work, I have come to different conclusions to you. That doesn't mean I am right, nor you. That does not mean I am narrow minded or closed off or a lowly materialist, any more than your beliefs make any sort of person out of you. It seems that you are unwilling to accept that people with different views to yours are not less than you.

By the way, I do think people are willfully ignorant, or they wouldn't act that way. I say things like that on purpose to make them realise.

But Ninae, the facts are not there- from my perspective. I am all for evidence and you have none, so rather than me being wilfully ignorant, perhaps you are being excessively forgiving of the extraordinairy claims you encounter. I am uncomfortable in making any assumption about you but I want you to see what its like from my perspective when someone makes a personal claim about a person but using onlya few select opinions from them.

Your beliefs do not make you better than others, the views which are counter to you do not diminish your views either. This is not a battle field but a discussion, and you are the only one who is actively and consistently attacking your opposition. I am tired of reading it.

 

[Ninae]

There are a few who post regularly just to ridicule, maybe you haven't noticed.

Anyway, this thread was really meant for other seekers, to exchange advice on what works for self-development/spiritual development. Not to start a discussion on whether there is or isn't such a thing, which I've already said, so it just gets on my nerves when it's all someone wants to do.

But I don't know exactly how you expect me to provide evidence, other than refer to the classic masters and good teachers who've come to teach us. And, then, because I can't provide any evidence that means we can conclude there is no such thing? I think there is evidence, but maybe not the kind you want, that comes with a stamp of approval from the majority, or official authorities.

I don't know how you feel you can say such a thing there is no spiritual development to pursue, when millions of people have said otherwise, and a consistent system that seems to get results has been practiced for over 7000 years in India. Have you ever considered there might be a reason for that?

And how would you know, if you haven't even practiced? Because it's something that takes both extensive studies and long term practice to really begin to understand.

 

[MrRoot]

I read this thread sometimes and I must say that there have been direct attacks to Ninae's person in many forms.

I don't agree with this subject but I am just a master of my own and should not try to force others thinking in my way and therefore I don't comment against something which I think cannot be proven existing or unexisting.

I just wish this thread could be what Ninae intended because that is what I wish for other thread in BL. If she wants this thread to be for informing about those beliefs without people trying to ridicule her then why can't we let it be for the like minded. Ones disagreeing could just start their own thread about discussing whether these things are real or not in their opinion.

Peace to all.

 

[Ninae]

Well, yes, the thread was made for the like-minded, but I guess there aren't many like-minded on this board. So I guess there wouldn't be many except for me and Foreigner, and even he spends most of his posts defending his views against non-believers.

It just seems like a huge waste of energy, that doesn't really serve anyone, and could be spent in more constructive ways. Another thread for arguing for and against isn't a bad idea, but this is just how spiritual threads turn out as a rule on Bluelight.

Just seems kind of pointless having a section dedicated to spirituality if it's always going to be opposed by 90% of members. If someone are so against it, why not just stay in the skeptics/philosphy threads instead of ruining any sincere attempt to share spiritual ideas, which is how it mostly turns out.

 

[swilow]

I am sorry if you have been ridiculed and I do not doubt it has happened. There will be always be dicks out there unfrtunately. But, disagreeing with someone is not ridicule and asking someone to back up their statements is not an attack. I just do not think you help yourself by adding a really dismissive post-script to many of your posts which basically says if you don't agree with me there is something wrong with you.

 

[tokezu]

I don't know how you feel you can say such a thing there is no spiritual development to pursue, when millions of people have said otherwise, and a consistent system that seems to get results has been practiced for over 7000 years in India. Have you ever considered there might be a reason for that?

Sorry to be so nitpicky, but can you expand on that? TBH it seems like an overexaggeration to me.

 

[Foreigner]

I am sorry if you have been ridiculed and I do not doubt it has happened. There will be always be dicks out there unfrtunately. But, disagreeing with someone is not ridicule and asking someone to back up their statements is not an attack. I just do not think you help yourself by adding a really dismissive post-script to many of your posts which basically says if you don't agree with me there is something wrong with you.

I think what Ninae is trying to say is that there is no way to contain or preserve spiritual discussions from skepticism. For example, if a group of Christians want to talk about their faith in a deep or complex way, with Biblical references, it's hard to do that if they're always being attacked by pseudoskeptics or material reductionists. The same is true of academic philosophers who want to talk about specific branches without new age frou frou types weighing in on how stingy they are. Or scientific types who want to talk about a discovery or theory without people talking about how science is crap.

I'm a member of other forums that are spiritually focused and there is a huge wealth of wisdom and information exchanged without the need to ever justify the origins of discovery or the veracity of experiences.

So I guess there wouldn't be many except for me and Foreigner, and even he spends most of his posts defending his views against non-believers.

I don't feel defensive when I write those things, most of the time. It's partly because coming here is usually an intellectual exercise, and as I have a major intellectual part to my personality I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of verbalizing spiritual phenomena and trying to convey it across different world views, but I don't always succeed and that's okay. On the other hand, I've only shared 1% of myself here because it would be counter-productive to open myself up to an inappropriate environment. My spirituality is mostly private.

 

[swilow]

I think what Ninae is trying to say is that there is no way to contain or preserve spiritual discussions from skepticism. For example, if a group of Christians want to talk about their faith in a deep or complex way, with Biblical references, it's hard to do that if they're always being attacked by pseudoskeptics or material reductionists.

What's a "psedoskeptic"?

But, anyway, my point was something entirely different. I was merely pointing out the Ninae does a similar form of attacking in nearly every post she has made. I don't like being a dick, but I just looked back on the previous page and this is what she has said in most posts. I do not see why it is acceptable for one side of a discussion to act a certain way but the other cannot. Both 'sides' should stop being stupid about this.

Foreigner, me and you have had disagreements that have been totally and wonderfully pleasant. It can happen, all parties need to strive.

Mostly for those who imagine some kind of war between science and spirituality which they have to take sides in, and turn every spiritual discussion into.

The problem with most is they don't think enlightenment is possible, apart from for a few mythological figures, and before someone has reached full enlightenment they have no business talking about it.

Most have been conditioned to believe it has to be sought outside, which is a big obstacle.

But of course this isn't part of official culture, if you only believe what is "approved" that way.

All of that shit is just digs at people with differing opinions. It was a waste of my time posting it, but I think its useful to demonstrate the nonsense I'm talking about. Not a really big deal but I...felt....like saying it.

 

[Ninae]

No, it wasn't meant as a dig against anyone personally, that's how you choose to read it. It was directed at our culture at large, which seems designed to keep us in spiritual darkness. Especially the popular media with all these "experts" who can prove there is no God or such a thing as consciousness.

I don't think what they're telling us is true, and I have no respect for them. I think they're harming us in many ways. But I'm mostly interested in the truth and don't feel any real need to defend my "side" or justify myself. That's all you seem interested in, but I'd rather discuss real spiritual topics with someone who's open to them.

That's my view on it and I'm free to see it that way. Maybe most's concern is how believing in a spiritual reality could make them look stupid in a world where most people have no such beliefs and they could turn out not to be true. My concern is more how disregarding possibilities that might be very real, like eternal life, divine law, and an on-going spiritual evolution could end up being a disaster for a human soul.

 

[cire113]

I don't know shit; but its possible not everyone is suppose to experience awakening ; and perhaps part of the ignorance and delusion has a purpose...?

I think the problem your having Ninae is how it so eloquently states in the Tao Te Ching, " The Tao that can be told is not the eternal tao "

as much as I do know what you mean and your intentions are discussing the ineffable is laughable at best(IMO);

Thats exactly why after having had a few direct mystical experiences myself i don't even bother;

and as Alan Watts as well as many other mystics throughout the history of earth have said time and time again

" Brahaman is un-known to those who know it; and known to those who know it not"



I wish though everyone could have that special type of direct complete death experience with the divine and still return back to human form......



good luck on your journey humans.

 

[swilow]

I am a bit tired of being told I am somehow flawed because I don't hold the same opinions as others, that I am afraid of being seen as stupid, or that I am merely a reductionist, or a polemic arguer. I don't know, I guess the vibe that you guys want to create here is not one I am interested in really.

 

[Ninae]

You come across as an occultist who opposes any other expression of spirituality under the guise of materialism. So there's not really any point in debating, as it's never going any other way. I just think it's a bit unnecessary, not every other expresson of spirituality needs to be opposed by you.

And I don't mean that in any offensive way. It's just what it looks like to me, and to be honest I'm tired of wasting my energy that way.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Almost all debate in my experience is about bolstering our ideas of the world and protecting our world view. I include myself here. I've learned a few things from debate but in reality not much considering the time I've put into it. Not true for reading however. Mostly debate is a social thingy and few are any good at it. I include myself again.

 

[Yourbaker]

I like to take the lazy approach of finding two highly skilled debaters and learn as they do the heavy lifting.

Here I've found more than 2. I appreciate the level of honesty and the risk of openness everyone is willing to make while debating some deeply held beliefs. So thanks for putting yourselves out there.

 

[Foreigner]

I don't know shit; but its possible not everyone is suppose to experience awakening ; and perhaps part of the ignorance and delusion has a purpose...?

I think the problem your having Ninae is how it so eloquently states in the Tao Te Ching, " The Tao that can be told is not the eternal tao "

as much as I do know what you mean and your intentions are discussing the ineffable is laughable at best(IMO);

Thats exactly why after having had a few direct mystical experiences myself i don't even bother;

and as Alan Watts as well as many other mystics throughout the history of earth have said time and time again

" Brahaman is un-known to those who know it; and known to those who know it not"



I wish though everyone could have that special type of direct complete death experience with the divine and still return back to human form......



good luck on your journey humans.

Those quotes are mostly to emphasize the nature of the Dao. We can look at other prophets throughout history, like Jesus, who outwardly said that they were basically enlightened and came here to help humanity. While it's true that the vast, vast majority of people who say they're enlightened usually aren't, saying it doesn't make it a sign of inflated ego per se.

It's perfectly valid to assert truthfully what you do and do not know on spiritual matters. Shrinking back and self-doubting are attached behaviours just as pride and vanity are.

Almost all debate in my experience is about bolstering our ideas of the world and protecting our world view. I include myself here. I've learned a few things from debate but in reality not much considering the time I've put into it. Not true for reading however. Mostly debate is a social thingy and few are any good at it. I include myself again.

I usually come here to share my knowledge, to look for gems that I hadn't considered, and to have my viewpoints challenged. I'm a member on a lot of debate forums and I credit them with refining my beliefs and thought process over the years.

You come across as an occultist who opposes any other expression of spirituality under the guise of materialism. So there's not really any point in debating, as it's never going any other way. I just think it's a bit unnecessary, not every other expresson of spirituality needs to be opposed by you.

And I don't mean that in any offensive way. It's just what it looks like to me, and to be honest I'm tired of wasting my energy that way.

I didn't get the impression that swillow was into the occult? Can you clarify what you mean by that?

If you're coming here to convince people of things it's only going to frustrate you.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Well then consider yourself unusual. If you observe most debates it's several people butting heads without listening much. I said MOST. There is on occasion a very open mind encountered. I've been open minded at times but often I'm not that's the truth after about 12 years of debate an over 90,000 + posts. I fell into a lot of money so I retired and had a lot of time on my hands. But when I really learn is when I read. My ego gets out of the way and I never feel threatened by having my core beliefs challenged. And maybe even you if you are honest do not always debate with a completely open mind. We are human after all.

 

[Ninae]

I didn't get the impression that swillow was into the occult? Can you clarify what you mean by that?

If you're coming here to convince people of things it's only going to frustrate you.

What do you mean? He talks like someone who only has time for the occult, to which skepticism doesn't seem to apply. I just hope he's not one of those misguided satanists who use science/materialism as a weapon against those who sincerely seek God or enlightenment.

I'm not looking to convince anyone, just being able to share my ideas with those who are interested, without it turning into the same argument ALL the time.

 

[HypGnosis]

He talks like someone who only has time for the occult, to which skepticism doesn't seem to apply.

Where did you get the idea scepticism doesn't apply to occult practice? Any legit practioner will understand the two go hand in hand.

I just hope he's not one of those misguided satanists who use science/materialism as a weapon against those who sincerely seek God or enlightenment.

Why do you conflate occultism with satanism?

 

[Ninae]

Where did you get the idea scepticism doesn't apply to occult practice? Any legit practioner will understand the two go hand in hand.

I just meant he doesn't apply it in the same way or deny the existence of a non-physical reality without solid proof as with the things from a spiritual/religious tradition.

 

[swilow]

You come across as an occultist who opposes any other expression of spirituality under the guise of materialism. So there's not really any point in debating, as it's never going any other way. I just think it's a bit unnecessary, not every other expresson of spirituality needs to be opposed by you.

And I don't mean that in any offensive way. It's just what it looks like to me, and to be honest I'm tired of wasting my energy that way.

I don't know what you mean by occultist.

Its a stretch to say you've ever tried to debate me, or even engage me in anyway whatsoever really. If anything, you just critcise me as close minded and materialist. Your beliefs don't put you above anyone, no matter what you seem to think.

People here treat you much more fairly than you treat others.

edit:

What do you mean? He talks like someone who only has time for the occult, to which skepticism doesn't seem to apply. I just hope he's not one of those misguided satanists who use science/materialism as a weapon against those who sincerely seek God or enlightenment.

What makes you think I am a satanist? Please don't project me onto your fantasy world of gods and demons.