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Does anyone really know "how" to take LSD anymore?
- Thread starter jazz88
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TheAppleCore
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My point is that everything in life is ultimately done for pleasure. Whether you realize it or not. Sometimes that pleasure is immediate (eating a nourishing meal), sometimes we only see it much later (getting up early to go to work, to eventually earn money, to spend it on a pleasurable lifestyle), but it remains fundamental to all human behavior.
Anon0631
Bluelighter
I think the clue is in the thread title
The point I was making was that this conversation wouldn't necessarily exist and certainly wouldn't be as heated if we were discussing one of Shulgin's magical half-dozen.
webby,
Wow, thanks for that post! Such a cool story. Inspirational!
I do feel, and this is perhaps an entirely different discussion, that one can really only learn so much from LSD and perhaps ... any one psychedelic? I don't know what the consensus around here regarding such an idea is. I feel like I might very well be reaching the point with LSD for example; perhaps your years in the rave scene kind of made that impression and you learned all you could from it? Either way you're moving, and congrats on the three kidos.
To address the judgmental tone in my original post. Implicit in my original post was the idea that there are better and more effective ways to approach LSD trip than others, however, the emotion framing that statement wasn't intended to be judgmental. I am frustrated by lack of people I associate with and know, throughout my 15 or so years around drug users, who have really transcendent, kickass LSD experiences. Is that sentence right there pejorative too? Maybe, but I stick by it. Hearing for example, that someone was having fun until they reached a point when "they thought you were gonna die", but then got "okay again" when they "got things under control" are the kind of stories that I hear 99% of the time. In my mind, that sort of experience is more indicative of a wasted opportunity than a "good time had". My original post was intended to point more toward this state of frustration than toward derision or arrogance.
Of course its not hard for me to extend this out a general frustration with underground/drug culture in general, with which I am also deeply frustrated. That is certainly a different topic though.
If someone wants to take major psychedelics just for some kicks, there's a good chance that person might have their ass kicked (in a good way) by an amazing experience they didn't expect, which is GREAT. However, there is an equal chance that person will get confused and end up having bummer time, which I'm not cool with. Some amount/sort of mindful education and preparation seems like the best way to sway those odds in a positive direction. What shape or form that would take, obviously people have different ideas about (Leary vs. Prankster).
I honestly don't care TOO much either way, but I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss, so I posted.
jazz88
Wow, thanks for that post! Such a cool story. Inspirational!
I do feel, and this is perhaps an entirely different discussion, that one can really only learn so much from LSD and perhaps ... any one psychedelic? I don't know what the consensus around here regarding such an idea is. I feel like I might very well be reaching the point with LSD for example; perhaps your years in the rave scene kind of made that impression and you learned all you could from it? Either way you're moving, and congrats on the three kidos.
To address the judgmental tone in my original post. Implicit in my original post was the idea that there are better and more effective ways to approach LSD trip than others, however, the emotion framing that statement wasn't intended to be judgmental. I am frustrated by lack of people I associate with and know, throughout my 15 or so years around drug users, who have really transcendent, kickass LSD experiences. Is that sentence right there pejorative too? Maybe, but I stick by it. Hearing for example, that someone was having fun until they reached a point when "they thought you were gonna die", but then got "okay again" when they "got things under control" are the kind of stories that I hear 99% of the time. In my mind, that sort of experience is more indicative of a wasted opportunity than a "good time had". My original post was intended to point more toward this state of frustration than toward derision or arrogance.
Of course its not hard for me to extend this out a general frustration with underground/drug culture in general, with which I am also deeply frustrated. That is certainly a different topic though.
If someone wants to take major psychedelics just for some kicks, there's a good chance that person might have their ass kicked (in a good way) by an amazing experience they didn't expect, which is GREAT. However, there is an equal chance that person will get confused and end up having bummer time, which I'm not cool with. Some amount/sort of mindful education and preparation seems like the best way to sway those odds in a positive direction. What shape or form that would take, obviously people have different ideas about (Leary vs. Prankster).
I honestly don't care TOO much either way, but I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss, so I posted.
jazz88
Anon0631
Bluelighter
There is something inherent to LSD which causes the above mentioned issues to be relevant. 2c-e for instance is a very insightful substance but I can't imagine the same level of passionate debate about it's use. What is the particular property of LSD which lends itself to such passion?
Anon0631,
I'm not sure! I've taken what I was told was be 2C-B, never tried 2C-E. I wish I could though! Lots of stuff I can't find where I live.
My best guess that LSD elicits such strong reaction is the cultural history surrounding the stuff. I mean, its the big daddy of psychedelic in terms of cultural impact. The history of western art and culture is so inexorably linked to the cultural impact of LSD, especially as many of the original acid heroes from 60s and 70s are still hanging around, that it invites crazy armchair analysis and speculation. The way the stuff broadsided western culture is really fucking crazy. I mean the shit was legal for a good portion of the 20th century-- hell even my dad and mom think they have opinions about LSD, without having taken it.
Shulgin's work didn't come until most major Psychedelics were already Schedule I and Haight Ashbury had turned into a ghetto, am I right? People were already jaded by then, lots of preconceived notions.
jazz88
I'm not sure! I've taken what I was told was be 2C-B, never tried 2C-E. I wish I could though! Lots of stuff I can't find where I live.
My best guess that LSD elicits such strong reaction is the cultural history surrounding the stuff. I mean, its the big daddy of psychedelic in terms of cultural impact. The history of western art and culture is so inexorably linked to the cultural impact of LSD, especially as many of the original acid heroes from 60s and 70s are still hanging around, that it invites crazy armchair analysis and speculation. The way the stuff broadsided western culture is really fucking crazy. I mean the shit was legal for a good portion of the 20th century-- hell even my dad and mom think they have opinions about LSD, without having taken it.
Shulgin's work didn't come until most major Psychedelics were already Schedule I and Haight Ashbury had turned into a ghetto, am I right? People were already jaded by then, lots of preconceived notions.
jazz88
Anon0631
Bluelighter
That's one explanation. The other is that what scientists like to call the "promiscuous pharmacology" of LSD (the fact that it hits so many neurotransmitter receptors) makes it a more mystical or meaningful experience than other psychedelics and means that it's more likely to build up an almost religious following.
I don't have an opinion on which one of these is the truth. I'm simply opening it up to discussion.
I don't have an opinion on which one of these is the truth. I'm simply opening it up to discussion.
Crashing
Bluelighter
Webby, thank brother.
It's nice to hear someone with a lot more experience give a sensible approach. I agree that the mushroom seems to feel much more 'divine' and deep than LSD, but for me LSD has the same potential (it's just easier to ignore). I've also experimented with 4-5 PEA's and never felt any sort of deep or meaningful aspect come from them. It seems like our preparations are actually pretty similar. I generally prefer to trip alone as well, but I am still in a stage in which i like to have a couple things around that I am used to in case things get too intense. I hope that I do, or eventually will treat psychedelics with the respect you have for them. Even though i am considerably younger, I feel that I can relate to having a sort of 'turning point' in my understanding of psychedelics and how i use them.
It's nice to hear someone with a lot more experience give a sensible approach. I agree that the mushroom seems to feel much more 'divine' and deep than LSD, but for me LSD has the same potential (it's just easier to ignore). I've also experimented with 4-5 PEA's and never felt any sort of deep or meaningful aspect come from them. It seems like our preparations are actually pretty similar. I generally prefer to trip alone as well, but I am still in a stage in which i like to have a couple things around that I am used to in case things get too intense. I hope that I do, or eventually will treat psychedelics with the respect you have for them. Even though i am considerably younger, I feel that I can relate to having a sort of 'turning point' in my understanding of psychedelics and how i use them.
What the hell is wrong with OP shedding some light on apparently alternative method to do things? This is the way I've come to love psychedelics. I get so annoyed with my friends who use it like alcohol or coke, their trips last until the party dies and then they're bummed out because they want it to last longer, all the while I would still be going strong far into the morning.
Seriously, people talking about nonsense hallucinations? That's one of the major points of the experience, imagination seeps into reality, how do you miss the point that reality is your imagination altogether? I can't believe some of the things I've read on this forum, it's like when you go to the MDMA section and read about "losing the magic," it's complete bullshit brought on by people who have no self-control. I feel bad for a lot of you talking like this, maybe you've been taking so much other shit that you never really thought out the pros and cons of psychs compared to other drugs. You cannot compare psychs to coke or benzos or whatever, it's a completely different thing altogether.
"Leary was a horrible man" did you ever think that you wouldn't even know what LSD was without Leary? He may have raped the minds of students but it's not like he had bad intentions and was taking their money and banging them in their sleep. "Had a horrible message..." Leary's message was the Americanized version that struck people instantly and simply. It's not his fault the masses of college students didn't care enough to read through his books or articles, it's not his fault that a lot of people idolized him either, he even told people publicly not to do that! Leary understood that this was something that could change society, and if you think it didn't, well.... think some more. How many war leaders have done LSD do you think?
Someone asked if the Hindu/Buddhist meditation techniques could get you high permanently was a myth? You have got to be kidding me, have you ever tried meditation, let alone daily? Why don't you find out for yourself??!?!?! What is happening here?!?!
All things aside, I'm assuming from the vast amount of ignorance in this thread that some of you have never heard of, let alone read this
http://csp.org/practices/entheogens/docs/huxley-drugs.html
Seriously, people talking about nonsense hallucinations? That's one of the major points of the experience, imagination seeps into reality, how do you miss the point that reality is your imagination altogether? I can't believe some of the things I've read on this forum, it's like when you go to the MDMA section and read about "losing the magic," it's complete bullshit brought on by people who have no self-control. I feel bad for a lot of you talking like this, maybe you've been taking so much other shit that you never really thought out the pros and cons of psychs compared to other drugs. You cannot compare psychs to coke or benzos or whatever, it's a completely different thing altogether.
"Leary was a horrible man" did you ever think that you wouldn't even know what LSD was without Leary? He may have raped the minds of students but it's not like he had bad intentions and was taking their money and banging them in their sleep. "Had a horrible message..." Leary's message was the Americanized version that struck people instantly and simply. It's not his fault the masses of college students didn't care enough to read through his books or articles, it's not his fault that a lot of people idolized him either, he even told people publicly not to do that! Leary understood that this was something that could change society, and if you think it didn't, well.... think some more. How many war leaders have done LSD do you think?
Someone asked if the Hindu/Buddhist meditation techniques could get you high permanently was a myth? You have got to be kidding me, have you ever tried meditation, let alone daily? Why don't you find out for yourself??!?!?! What is happening here?!?!
All things aside, I'm assuming from the vast amount of ignorance in this thread that some of you have never heard of, let alone read this
http://csp.org/practices/entheogens/docs/huxley-drugs.html
Crashing
Bluelighter
MonKeY, that was pretty much my initial reaction but there seems to be those of us who find a unique importance with certain psychedelics, and some who just use them for fun. I've seen the latter result in depression more often than not, but there are those who can just take acid and 'hallucinate' and just drink it away after half the trip, wake up and go to Denny's. Hard to imagine but it happens.
Hahah, not hard to imagine at all, sounds exactly like a group of friends that I've vowed never to trip with again. But these methods are worth defending, for if we don't defend them, then the party trip method may flood the masses. It breaks my heart that many overlook the miraculous aspects of the experience and are content with what the objective realtors slip into their minds.
Thanatos
Bluelighter
Monkey- you are just being ignorant. Sandoz synthed LSD, it had nothing to do with Leary. Have you ever heard of Shulgin? LSD would have made its rounds inevitably. It's just ludicrous to say that Leary is the reason why I've consumed so much LSD, don't be so foolish my friend.
khaosddt
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
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It exactly made me that way, but i spent my first years of acid intaking mostly at rave partys, or goofing around with my friends.
It truely changed my life after a vial wash. I reviewed all my life from my memories recall a billion times in a loop which seemed an eternity. Made myself judge all my bad and good deeds, see all the consequences of different choices made through my life, and i finally found internal peace, it washed all sense of guilt i had towards my mother or family, though i truely understood my mistakes to never make them again. Made me proud of my true qualities, and i saw my flaws to work on till the end of my life.
Actually it gaved me the Faith, the true one in the existence of god. Knowing that, brings a true peace, and changed my vision of the world.
Since then i feel accomplished, a true Man, it established my moral ideals.
I wish everyone taking LSD to experience it at really high dosage when they feel ready.
It truely changed my life after a vial wash. I reviewed all my life from my memories recall a billion times in a loop which seemed an eternity. Made myself judge all my bad and good deeds, see all the consequences of different choices made through my life, and i finally found internal peace, it washed all sense of guilt i had towards my mother or family, though i truely understood my mistakes to never make them again. Made me proud of my true qualities, and i saw my flaws to work on till the end of my life.
Actually it gaved me the Faith, the true one in the existence of god. Knowing that, brings a true peace, and changed my vision of the world.
Since then i feel accomplished, a true Man, it established my moral ideals.
I wish everyone taking LSD to experience it at really high dosage when they feel ready.
Of course I know of Shulgin. Would he have dedicated his life to mass marketing LSD, or stored it in a book and moved on with his experiments?
Was it not Leary who ordered one million doses from Sandoz? (not sure about that figure, but still)
Crashing
Bluelighter
Profound, really.
Thanatos
Bluelighter
^ well it seems the mass marketing way ended up fucking up a whole generation of impressionable youth across the world, while Shulgins compounds were synthed bioassayed and then slowly introduced to the world through his publications. Leary was a mad man. Give me a minute to find a biography you might be interested in, explaining how bad of a peskn he really was.
Read the excerpt
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/books/review/25sante.html?pagewanted=all
Read the excerpt
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/books/review/25sante.html?pagewanted=all
Crashing
Bluelighter
Well before even reading it, the NY Times is probably one of the most biased news articles in the country.
After reading it, i agree that Leary, in Greenfield's word may have "handed the future of psychedelic research to the wrong man."
This aspect however, is what I view this thread is sort of geared towards preventing, in a way more appropriate to modern context. Since Leary gave all these kids acid, we now know what the dangers are of handing out acid to anyone as a party drug.
I think that Leary's intentions were good, but perhaps he didn't see everything that was really going on. I agree with much of what he was about advocating, but I see how anyone can really start to lose it if they are tripping on high doses all the goddamned time. We know that isn't healthy now, probably in part due to his example.
I've studied a significant amount of psychology, and as a drug user and former addict i truly appreciate and understand Leary's 8-circuit model of consciousness. This model, I feel, lead me to better understand myself and gave me an edge when turning my life around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness
I think his work is very valuable, and this situation is similar to how Michael Jackson is seen today due to his societal troubles. His music is still great... But most importantly here, I never met Tim Leary or Michael Jackson, all I can go on is their work, and what people say about them. ANd one of those things holds a stronger value, in my opinion.
After reading it, i agree that Leary, in Greenfield's word may have "handed the future of psychedelic research to the wrong man."
This aspect however, is what I view this thread is sort of geared towards preventing, in a way more appropriate to modern context. Since Leary gave all these kids acid, we now know what the dangers are of handing out acid to anyone as a party drug.
I think that Leary's intentions were good, but perhaps he didn't see everything that was really going on. I agree with much of what he was about advocating, but I see how anyone can really start to lose it if they are tripping on high doses all the goddamned time. We know that isn't healthy now, probably in part due to his example.
I've studied a significant amount of psychology, and as a drug user and former addict i truly appreciate and understand Leary's 8-circuit model of consciousness. This model, I feel, lead me to better understand myself and gave me an edge when turning my life around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness
I think his work is very valuable, and this situation is similar to how Michael Jackson is seen today due to his societal troubles. His music is still great... But most importantly here, I never met Tim Leary or Michael Jackson, all I can go on is their work, and what people say about them. ANd one of those things holds a stronger value, in my opinion.
I totally agree with you Crashing, especially about how he may not have seen what was going on. How is one man supposed to keep track of thousands while writing books and making public appearances? It wasn't his responsibility to make sure every acid eater got home safely, his books supported taking acid in a safe place and in a safe way. If Greenfield was the guy who wrote, "Stories Told" then I know what the article is talking about. I've read the book and the section about Leary is incredibly opinionated and mischievously short. If someone can find one shred of evidence that he had ill intentions I'm glad to open my mind to it. Yes he was a trickster, he knew how to manipulate people, but he didn't manipulate people to join a cult or work and pay taxes.
Also, the 8 circuits model is awesome :D
"well it seems the mass marketing way ended up fucking up a whole generation of impressionable youth across the world," Again, if you are so selfish to put your faith and entire lifestyle on one man, then no shit you're going to be fucked up. There are plenty of people from that time who aren't fucked up, who knew what they needed to do and when they needed to do it.
Shulgin's methods are great, he's a true scientist. But another aspect of the psychedelic experience is to shatter your preconceived notions of reality. Instead of focusing only on himself, Leary went out to shatter society. But if he hadn't done so, then LSD would have remained a secret for the academic elite instead of a societal rite of passage. I didn't even find the article to put Leary in that bad of a light, just what every other post 80's person who chugs the news would say.
Also, the 8 circuits model is awesome :D
"well it seems the mass marketing way ended up fucking up a whole generation of impressionable youth across the world," Again, if you are so selfish to put your faith and entire lifestyle on one man, then no shit you're going to be fucked up. There are plenty of people from that time who aren't fucked up, who knew what they needed to do and when they needed to do it.
Shulgin's methods are great, he's a true scientist. But another aspect of the psychedelic experience is to shatter your preconceived notions of reality. Instead of focusing only on himself, Leary went out to shatter society. But if he hadn't done so, then LSD would have remained a secret for the academic elite instead of a societal rite of passage. I didn't even find the article to put Leary in that bad of a light, just what every other post 80's person who chugs the news would say.
electrodevo
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2012
- Messages
- 323
Historical reasons, in my opinion. LSD was the first synthesized hallucinogen that Western culture discovered and attached to quasi-religious movements (I don't think ritual hallucinogen use had been a part of Western civilization for a long time prior to this). It is associated with a large counter-cultural movement.
Myself, I do not get anything out of LSD. Too many damn looping thoughts. Too "mechanical" feeling to be insightful. Too confusing in higher doses. Mushrooms and related chemicals are much better. But dissociative holes -- ah, that's another story. I guess my body prefers to have different receptors tickled. The only way I would use LSD again is in low doses for added "color" and music perception, if at all. So as far as people complaining about people using LSD for "fun" is concerned, well, the "spiritual experience" many experience on LSD, is not necessarily a universal phenomenon.
As far as Leary is concerned, yes, he was significant -- but ultimately damaging. There was a shade of reckless hedonism in his LSD "religion", a shade which I find spiritually suspect to begin with -- and which probably helped drive the negative inclusion of psychedelics with other more damaging drugs. On the other hand, I would far rather have the passionate world of the 1960s LSD culture, versus the current culture where drugs are mostly manufactured for profit and no other reason, and where the primary motive of too many consumers is to get fucked up and nothing else.