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Discussion - Creditability - is it ours or the universe's to take?
- Thread starter Eveleivibe
- Start date
How many of them go to church? How many of them pray? How many of them are even remotely Christian in any meaningful sense? A damn sight less than ticked the box that wasn't Muslim or Jedi.
Yeh, I can see what yer alluding to there, but being religionist does not necessarily equate with being racist.
i.e. I can't be doing with christians, catholics, muslims, jews, hindus, buddhists etc. etc., but I couldn't give a fuck where they're from or the colour of their skin, it's just their general ignorance, gullibility and willingness to commit crimes against other humans which pisses me off
It does equate to being racist when you pick one particular religion and only consider it in it's most local and parochial form. How many people who claim Christian affiliation would even recognise a 1st Century Christian service? And how many Christians of Convenience would call those people heretics? Which form of Christianity are we even discussing? The current forms - none of them - even existed at the supposed time of the man himself.
Anti-Islam, anti-Jew, anti-Whatever - it's racism. Anti-religionist is a whole other matter.
Eveleivibe
Ex-Bluelighter
I rest my case..
OI!!!! *GETS INTO FULL EVETRUM MODE AND RUNS AFTER FUBAR WITH A TIMMY MALLET*..... Get 'ere, you... lemme batter you one!!!!
Ya don't need to go to church to believe n be a Christian.... I've believed since I was a little girl, read the bible (sort of...), took part in assembly, listened to my Nain Peggy; a fine Christian, gone to midnight mass EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!!!! God is with me always I don't need a church to believe n pray to Him and contact Jesus..... Did his deciples go to church to be with Jesus? No, they had faith in Him, they followed him and so forth.....
Evey
ComfortablyNumb95
Bluelight Crew
that's not the point, even a schizo dude firmly believes that the fbi is after him or that a serial killer planted a bomb in his bathroom whitout the need of any proof.
I'm not comparing mental illness to religion but you see what i mean, if someone believes (for example) in ghosts and shit he's made fun of and he's crazy, but if someone else believes that if you pray a man that you've never ever seen and you will never see and if you are a good boy/gal etc. you will go to a magical place after you die or that a man who could multiply fish and bread was killed and then resurrected some 2000 years ago then that's completely fine.
it's this kind of double standard that gets on my nerves: for me you can believe what you want and I'll defend that right to the death.
also from a logical point of view believing in ghosts would be much less crazy and out there than christianity imho.
see what I mean?
Eveleivibe
Ex-Bluelighter
It's viewed opposite here... it's normal to discuss "talkin to the dead" ie "ghosts" etc but if one is a Christian n dares to discuss it, they're quickly ridiculed, made fun of, called a "Bible basher," so to speak... For a long time I never mentioned believing in God due to that kind of reaction especially from my own family, whom are very much atheist. I wanted my child Christened - and to be Christened myself but my family and friends won't come as they're atheists.... also I've confliction views, as discussed above, but for another discussion...
I guess my point is that it differs from community to community, even country to country... I know that in America - most of them are very much Christian, go to Church every Sunday and it's very much open, not laughed at all....
So, CN - I get your point and accept it, but my answer is that it's very much reserved, at least in Wales, anyway.
Evey
Why not? The only time I've spoken to 'god' (or angels or demons and the like) is when I've been psychotic. I suspect I'm not alone in that. Only I didn't write a book about it, preach on streetcorners, or try to attract folllowers in general. I just stepped away from the drugs for a while and it all went away.
Eveleivibe
Ex-Bluelighter
Define "mentally ill"
Again it's only a social constructivist creation..... constructed by human.... ie a group of Psychiatrists got together, discussed symptoms for various "mental illnesses" in which there's NO BLOOD tests for, and put them in the book.... Look up Thomas Szazs or R D Laing....
Extremely interesting people in the name of Psychiatry... such a threat that they were banned fro a long time... students were forbidden to read their literature....
L D Laing - The Divided Self.... Exemplar... a woman was naked in a padded cell. Staff moaned they could "do NOTHING with her," R D Laing went into the cell n started repeating her behaviour.... rocking back n forth... slowly they both communicated.... something that no one else had been able to do.... Yet he was cast out.....
Ignorance may be bliss but knowledge is power!!!!
Evey
As an aside, what is this obsession with blood tests you have of late, Evey? You do know there are many, many genuine medical conditions which show no sign whatsoever in a blood test, yes? I'd hope so anyway...
I said nothing about being mentally ill. I said I was psychotic. If you've never been psychotic I can't expect you to understand. Trust me. You notice it... sort of. People in the general vicinity certainly notice it though.
Until you've heard those Voices you truly do not know what you are talking about. Don't even try to go there.
I said nothing about being mentally ill. I said I was psychotic. If you've never been psychotic I can't expect you to understand. Trust me. You notice it... sort of. People in the general vicinity certainly notice it though.
Until you've heard those Voices you truly do not know what you are talking about. Don't even try to go there.
F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
[/QUOTE=Shambles;12504015] Which form of Christianity are we even discussing?[/QUOTE]
Any and all. Organised religion was/is just a convenient means of keeping the uneducated masses under control, so that the ruling classes could/can do whatever they bloody felt/feel like. The only religions which make any logical sense these days are the ancient 'pagan' beliefs which, due to general ignorance, anthropomorphised natural events such as the days, the seasons, the weather etc. This early religion has now been replaced with science. Any other types of religion based around guilt and suffering were purely a means of social control by people who knew better..
Any and all. Organised religion was/is just a convenient means of keeping the uneducated masses under control, so that the ruling classes could/can do whatever they bloody felt/feel like. The only religions which make any logical sense these days are the ancient 'pagan' beliefs which, due to general ignorance, anthropomorphised natural events such as the days, the seasons, the weather etc. This early religion has now been replaced with science. Any other types of religion based around guilt and suffering were purely a means of social control by people who knew better..
^ I wish I didn't feel I had to even respond to that. If you seriously think I have any interest in taking sides in the midst of the spats you have with Raas you are deeply, deeply mistaken.
Then you miss the point I was making, FUBAR. Christianity was no organised religion initially. It was a sequence of ideas one inspired by - or in direct reaction to - the next one. Nothing we have today bears any relation to any of them. What is called Christianity today would not be recoginised by anybody that knew the man known as Jesus if he existed as a single man. None of them.
The reason Christianity took off so well and became embedded is because initially it gave hope - in various forms, very, very varied forms - of a life without slavery and misery and injustice. This life may be hell but there's better to come if only you love your fellow man. That is an idea that has legs. That is an idea even I could live by - and try to. But that is not what Christianity is now because it became the handy state religion - organised, Catholic (Orthodoxy Schism aside) - approved and enforced by the sword. Cos the book (the state approved and abridged version of many, many books) allowed for so much interpretation it allowed for tyranny. It suggested and reinforced that idea... when interpreted by 'people who know about these things'. It became debased. Christianity as now understood is repulsive and abhorrent. Because those that made it an organised religion were base and abhorrent.
I rather suspect the same applies in a wider sense.
Then you miss the point I was making, FUBAR. Christianity was no organised religion initially. It was a sequence of ideas one inspired by - or in direct reaction to - the next one. Nothing we have today bears any relation to any of them. What is called Christianity today would not be recoginised by anybody that knew the man known as Jesus if he existed as a single man. None of them.
The reason Christianity took off so well and became embedded is because initially it gave hope - in various forms, very, very varied forms - of a life without slavery and misery and injustice. This life may be hell but there's better to come if only you love your fellow man. That is an idea that has legs. That is an idea even I could live by - and try to. But that is not what Christianity is now because it became the handy state religion - organised, Catholic (Orthodoxy Schism aside) - approved and enforced by the sword. Cos the book (the state approved and abridged version of many, many books) allowed for so much interpretation it allowed for tyranny. It suggested and reinforced that idea... when interpreted by 'people who know about these things'. It became debased. Christianity as now understood is repulsive and abhorrent. Because those that made it an organised religion were base and abhorrent.
I rather suspect the same applies in a wider sense.
ComfortablyNumb95
Bluelight Crew
Yes i agree, I'm from italy and Here it's very normal to believe in God, but you have to admit that being christian is much much more widely accepted than believing in ghosts/fairies etc., which doesn't make any sense.
Because mental illness has some features that religion (usually) doesnt have, but i reckon religion/faith can render a person borderline psychotic or the other way around as you pointed out: see the God Warrior.
Please explain how belief in (I presume you only have reference to) the Christian god 'makes sense'. And then contrast that to belief in ghosts or faeries. Or indeed elves.
There's a damn sight more evidence for ghosts than there is for god. I don't believe in either. But at least one has some form of tangible evidence.
ComfortablyNumb95
Bluelight Crew
^ it doesn't make any sense that being christian is more accepted than believing in (put belief in here).
F.U.B.A.R.
Bluelight Crew
I see yer point, but I am still a little dubious as to whether there ever was a Jesus. AFAIK, his existence has never been proven beyond reasonable doubt (how could it?). Whether the christianity of today bears any resemblance with 'original' christianity is really beside the point IMO. Any christianity or other religion (insert name of deity here..) is an outmoded concept - worshipping some twat that spouts a load of bollocks just smacks of gullibility and desperation in these modern times. I'm sure it did have its uses once upon a time, but these days it is little more than a fairy tale.
(disclaimer: I've not actively studied any religions due to lack of interest. Anyone that wishes to believe to give themselves hope is fine by me - just don't preach yer twaddle to me, especially on a sunday morning when I'm trying to shag the wife.....)
ComfortablyNumb95
Bluelight Crew
a schizo individual hears voices, has hallucinations, is paranoid etc.
a religious individual isn't religious because he has this kind of symptoms and most religious people don't have them.
how come? I'm a bit confused here...
a religious individual isn't religious because he has this kind of symptoms and most religious people don't have them.
how come? I'm a bit confused here...
I have no real belief in the existence of any particular man called Jesus either. Evidence is beyond scant. In fact it mostly leads the other way. That's irrelevant though in this context. Something or someone triggered that sequence of events and whatever or whoever it was set several forms of belief in motion - most (or indeed all) of which have fallen by the wayside. There is no 'original' Christianity cos it was always a plethora of beliefs and variants thereon. You're missing the point entirely. I am no fan - at all - of religion organised or otherwise, but babies and bathwater and all that. That core principle of love is there in all religions. That is what is real. The rest is all flim-flam and bullshit. Or worse in many cases. Much, much worse usually.
I have actively studied religion. That doesn't mean I have any better handle on it than anybody else. I do know where pure prejudice overwhelms underlying truths though and that is perhaps the difference I'm trying to draw attention to.
Aside from your somewhat ignorant use of terminology, yes psychotic individuals hear Voices. They usually hear the Voice of 'god'. Or of some angel or demon related to that concept and their own conception and socialised understanding of such a thing. This is precisely how all religions started. A person hearing Voices they interpret as being gods, angels and/or demons. They tend to get a bit manic and paranoid along the way cos most folks assume they are nuts. Cos they are. Every once in a while people listen and write stuff down. And there's religion for you made flesh.
I say you have nothing to add cos you dismiss very simple questions with non-answers and/or pat responses with zero input of your own. Add something of your own and I'll happily retract that statement.
Thou
Bluelighter
Hey gaiz...
Nobody even mentioned Shiva for Vishnu sake!
I speak to god all the time he's omnipresent I literally cannot not talk to god, technically..
I'm going to be a dick and point out that karma is a hindu concept.
Monotheism fucked this planet right the sqwanch up.
Yesterday he told me that "pickles were cucumbers who sold out".
Nobody even mentioned Shiva for Vishnu sake!
I speak to god all the time he's omnipresent I literally cannot not talk to god, technically..
I'm going to be a dick and point out that karma is a hindu concept.
Monotheism fucked this planet right the sqwanch up.
Yesterday he told me that "pickles were cucumbers who sold out".
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Hmm.... I'll assume sarcasm over ignorance in this instance. Surely nobody trying to bring Hindu beliefs into such a debate would make such a non sequitur unless it was in the form of sarcasm...
Thou
Bluelighter
Which neatly brings us full circle back to ol'...
NSFW:
Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock. Wait. No. I mean beautiful green tree python. That snake. Can I purchase it?
I have a dry satiric nature I'd apologize for if it weren't brilliant.
But I must point out that if we're discussing theology, the polytheistic religions have just as much a right to stand here and talk shit about god as anyone else, I think.
She mentioned Buddhism, which for me is more a philosophy and a common sense eternal truth. That's where I'm at.
As far as a tangible being, in the form of a man, that created existence and is like, sitting somewhere? I'm dubious.
But whatever helps you sleep at night is fine by me.