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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Codeine Extraction

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Just wondering what people think of doing mass codeine extractions?

Eg: 96 tables 10/500 (codeine/paracetamol). should you do all the tablets together or do seperate extractions? Thoughts?
 
Ive done whole lot before. Although i find it difficult to use the normal ratio of water. And filtration is messy. I'd probably do 2 if i had that much in front of me.
 
How much is a 'whole lot' and what was the process you used? If you don't mind sharing.
 
ive tried mass extraction before and like yossarian_is_sane! said filtration is messy. these days I like evaporating off the water and taking it in a capsule. But for this I only do one dose at a time as water is not the quickest to evaporate (overnight is fine under a fan)

The best way to go around it (with 96 tabs) dissolve them in 380-400 tap temp water (i use about 4ml per tab). stir and once their dissolved get a beaker big enough to hold that amount of water and use a hankerchief to filter, i just use a rubber band around the beaker to hold it there. I wet the hanky first and squeeze most of the water out before i use it otherwise it soakes up too much water and lots of codeine is lost.

Its best not to store the codeine for longer than a day or two. I found out the hard way when mine went moldy. Or keep it in the fridge watever.

The success rate is higher when you do a mass extraction, compared to doing small ones as you lose more codeine. Either way your gonna lose some of it. Mass extraction is better if you need a high dose or if you dose often. Ive cut back to once a week so I only extract one dose at a time.

I also use antihistamines with it to give it a boost. Its not the best thing to do but its so much better.
 
IBUPROFEN.gif


Ibuprofen isn't very soluable at all BUT, that carboxylic acid is what gives it any solubility at all. Add Calcium Hydroxide & it drops right out like paracetamol.

paracetamol.gif


Paracetamol has that phenol group (which is acidic) and that amide group. As I understand it, it's that phenol group that gives it ANY water solubility. Now, Calcium Hydroxide forms a phenoxide. Calcium phenoxide is NOT water soluable. It's how they get morphine out of opium. Dissolve opium in hot water, add CaOH, calcium morphinate drops out. Codeine has an ester over that phenol, paracetamol doesn't so in this case, the paracetamol drops out and the codeine stays in solution (even freebase is somewhat soluable).
Once you have your codeine, go the extra mile and make hydrocodone out of it. Freebase hydrocodone is smokable and very good indeed. In fact, SWIM grew poppies & made opium but it wasn't too strong so an imput of just a small quantity (4g in 200g opium) made the stuff dynamite. I urge you codeine extractors to try that extra step! It's in the Rhodium archieve.

As a rule of thumb, dissolve tablets in hot water, filter out solids (binders and so on) so you end up with a clear solution. It may be a little cloudly, but no more than that.
 
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Oh man, that sweet codeine! I've been doing it at least twice a day for this whole week, went without today and had the worst headaches...withdrawl sympton or not?
 
the only one I know of that doesnt result in a cloudy/clear solution is N+. I have never gotten anything close to a colourless solution with N+.

As for obtaining hydrocodone, this is tricky. I am aware that there are many ways of getting hydrocodone from codeine and nearly all of them require hard to find or not worth the effort chemicals. Its not too hard to get dihydrocodeine from codeine (if you have access to catalysts like palladium or platinum, but converting DHC to hydrocodone is trickier.

I dug up the one (i think your talking about) on rhodium. That is harder than other reactions ive seen as it needs ethyl acetate, bezophenone, potassium tertbutoxide and also THF. ethyl acetate can be made without much trouble (the only drawback to that is purifying the ethyl acetate as it will contain impurities, probably ethanol and ethanoic acid), as for obtaining the others it would be a waste of money in my opinion. Surely there are easier ways of producing hydrocodone from dihydrocodeine.

Its easier getting your hands on hydrocodone containing medication. If I had the resources to produce hydrocodone I would definitely do it.
 
mr blonde:
at least twice a day for the whole week? christ, dont you care about your liver? Codeine is a particular nasty one to abuse. I hope you dont drink much (alcohol i mean).
 
dtasrt_lk said:
the only one I know of that doesnt result in a cloudy/clear solution is N+. I have never gotten anything close to a colourless solution with N+.

As for obtaining hydrocodone, this is tricky. I am aware that there are many ways of getting hydrocodone from codeine and nearly all of them require hard to find or not worth the effort chemicals. Its not too hard to get dihydrocodeine from codeine (if you have access to catalysts like palladium or platinum, but converting DHC to hydrocodone is trickier.

I dug up the one (i think your talking about) on rhodium. That is harder than other reactions ive seen as it needs ethyl acetate, bezophenone, potassium tertbutoxide and also THF. ethyl acetate can be made without much trouble (the only drawback to that is purifying the ethyl acetate as it will contain impurities, probably ethanol and ethanoic acid), as for obtaining the others it would be a waste of money in my opinion. Surely there are easier ways of producing hydrocodone from dihydrocodeine.

Its easier getting your hands on hydrocodone containing medication. If I had the resources to produce hydrocodone I would definitely do it.
Click to expand...

Hi,
The cloudy solution is the ibuprofen NOT going into solution. A very fine filter with vacuum filtration will sort it out. Codeine->hydrocodone Pd black is REALLY easy to make from palladium chloride which is available from specialist photography places or failing that, go to your pharmacist, explain your doing such photography and they will obtain it for you. is in the Rhodium archieve but it doesn't need all that stuff. If you can obtain DHC easily, then you can convert it to DHM using 15%HBr in GAA in a sealed tube (98% yield) then this can be oxidised using K-tertbutoxide at 98% yield. If you want to go crazy then acetylation (AA) gives a produce about x18 morphine.
 
haribo1 said:
Hi,
Codeine->hydrocodone Pd black is REALLY easy to make from palladium chloride which is available from specialist photography places or failing that, go to your pharmacist, explain your doing such photography and they will obtain it for you. is in the Rhodium archieve but it doesn't need all that stuff. .
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the German patents regarding one-pot isomerization of codeine to hydrocodone, I think it's called 'Production of Dihydromorphinones' or something to that effect?

This details heating codeine for example in an acidic solution in the presence of a catalyst, enabling rearrangement to dihydrocodeinone.

Anyway I've read elsewhere that the large amounts of catalyst required might be difficult to obtain, and that vicious side reactions result in an outcome that has low yields and requires extensive purification.

I don't know if this is true or not, you might be able to explain, as I have no practical knowledge of this reaction.

I've also read here:
PDF detailing properties of oxidised codeine, ie codeinone

That moderately yielding isomerization of codeine can be achieved using cyclohexanone as the hydrogen acceptor and Raney-Nickel as the catalyst.

I'm more interested in the medical properties of codeinone myself, if any such exist. But yeah, that's just a little more information on the chemical properties and conversions of codeine. I know little more than what I've posted, and nothing in practical terms.
 
did someone a can of worms?:D

Is the acidic environment needed for proper hydrogenation?
I understand that using the german patent would result in DHC and hydro in the final product using slaked lime will seperate this compounds?

How would finely powdered platinum compare to Palladium black as a catalyst,

Wouldnt an amount pd/pt get dissolved in the etoh?, making for impurites in final product? maybe ethyl acetate as alcohol would make cleaner product?

All this is completely hypothetical
 
The codeine->hydrocodone yield is over 70%, you only need a small amount of Pd black & the side product is dihydronorthebaine... which has a phenolic -OH so you can use CaOH to drop out.
 
dtasrt_lk said:
mr blonde:
at least twice a day for the whole week? christ, dont you care about your liver? Codeine is a particular nasty one to abuse. I hope you dont drink much (alcohol i mean).
Click to expand...

Nope, I don't drink too often, at the most twice a week or so but most of the time I don't even drink at all. There are better psychoactives out there in my opinion!

How much damage do you think I am doing to my liver? What's your prediction for my future?

And before anyone else points this out, no I am not expecting any expert medical advice, just anyones fair guess at what my body will look like if I use codeine at once/twice a day for a long period of time.
 
Well. I had been extracting codeine 3-4 times a week for ages and was starting to get a bit worried. I drink occasionally as well (once a week on average I guess. I decided to see my doctor to have my liver checked.

The results came back and... everything was fine. Liver function was normal and so was everything else.

This is not to say I wish to continue to do this indefinitely. Codeine is an ok opiate but it's definitely not worth doing as often as I do. Believe me. When I manage to get some time off I will stop using codeine and hopefully stop smoking as much as well.

edit: just like to add that even though my liver functions came back normal, I suffer from stomach aches quite often so... I think you all see where I'm going with this.
 
edit: just like to add that even though my liver functions came back normal, I suffer from stomach aches quite often so... I think you all see where I'm going with this.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that you believe your codeine use is causing some other damage to your body? What do you think it could be? I thought that the only risk was damage to the liver from paracetamol.
 
Well on second thought I might have sounded hysterical or something hah I didnt mean it like that. As long as you do a proper extraction it shouldnt be too much of a worry. But stil as I said before the drinking makes it a lot worse. Ibuprofen irritates the stomach lining if you use pills that contain ibuprofen. But for that i think you need a fair share of ibuprofen in your system to cause such things.



haribo1 said:
The cloudy solution is the ibuprofen NOT going into solution. A very fine filter with vacuum filtration will sort it out. Codeine->hydrocodone Pd black is REALLY easy to make from palladium chloride which is available from specialist photography places or failing that, go to your pharmacist, explain your doing such photography and they will obtain it for you. is in the Rhodium archieve but it doesn't need all that stuff. If you can obtain DHC easily, then you can convert it to DHM using 15%HBr in GAA in a sealed tube (98% yield) then this can be oxidised using K-tertbutoxide at 98% yield. If you want to go crazy then acetylation (AA) gives a produce about x18 morphine.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse! i completely forgot about PdCl2. Which is used to make many other palladium compounds aswel. that just leaves KO-t-But.
 
retrogradeamnesia said:
did someone a can of worms?:D

Is the acidic environment needed for proper hydrogenation?
I understand that using the german patent would result in DHC and hydro in the final product using slaked lime will seperate this compounds?

How would finely powdered platinum compare to Palladium black as a catalyst,

Wouldnt an amount pd/pt get dissolved in the etoh?, making for impurites in final product? maybe ethyl acetate as alcohol would make cleaner product?

All this is completely hypothetical
Click to expand...
.
I've been interested in these German patents for a long time now. What is it that makes you suggest dihydrocodeine would be an impurity in the reaction, and what is it that makes haribo1 suggest that dihydronorthebaine would be another impurities? Are there other impurities?

Also - as I said I've read that 'side reactions' occur and that a large amount of catalyst is required. Is this true? I'm interested from a theoretical perspective and as such have no information on the practical aspects of this reaction, aside from something I read (a patent) when searching for 'codeine isomerization dihydrocodeinone' (aka hydrocodeone) on Google.

What makes you question whether an acidic environment would be needed?

One last thing, what is the difference between Platinum black, and 'Platinum std' in an acidic matrix, such as sold in some chemical supply chains in the US?

BTW I don't mean to sound curt or mistrustful, I'm just genuinly interested is all.

Thanks alot

Edit: Since doses of hydrocodone are much smaller than those required for codeine, wouldn't the actual reaction, if successful, be a little bit dangerous, in that handling or gauging the amount of for example 1000mg of codeine wouldn't be particularly dangerous, but handling or gauging the smae amount, or say, 700mg of hydrocodone might be?
 
I read that this method would produce only part conversion to hydro leaving the rest DHC which would be difficult to separate, I now think this reaction to DHC is unlikely. thanks haribo

This was my first concern about contamination of final product the other being that the said 'side-reactions', would eat up an amount of the catalyst, particularly if one were to use finely powdered platinum with the etoh, this platinum would then contaminate final product.
I have read of using ethyl acetate, would there be any reason for doing so?

"If morphine is used, the addition of acid would not be required but still with reliable yields."

How likely is this?
The same product obtained from the 30% hydrogen peroxide treatment of thebaine in acetic acid can also be obtained directly from codeine.
 
Those German patents are for a rearrangement. DHC is not a side-product. The alcohol becomes a ketone so those extra hydrogens have to go somewhere. The majority go to reducing the 7,8 double bond, but the side reaction is breaking the tetrahydrofuran ring placing a -OH at the 4 position (which is phenolic) which is why lime will drag it out of solution. IF DHC were a side-product, would that be a problem in any case?
Potassion tert butoxide is the 100% yielding oxidising agent (see codeine->hydrocodone on Rhodiums page). This method is higher yielding but you need 2 steps & hydrogenation equipement. The German on is only 75% but is a single step, you can remove the side-products and it can be done on your table-top.
 
haribo1 said:
Those German patents are for a rearrangement. DHC is not a side-product...The German on is only 75% but is a single step, you can remove the side-products and it can be done on your table-top.
Click to expand...

What are the side products exactly, for the reactions described in the German patents? Was one dihydronorthebaine as mentioned before? Also, would the potential for ingestion of poorly extracted catalyst, or poorly measured amounts (hydrocodone being much more potent milligram for milligram than codeine) be considerable?

How much catalyst is one liable to 'get back', if using, as retrogradeamnesia said, powdered palladium?

Thanks
 
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