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Codeine and CWE Megathread - The long awaited!

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Yeah, it would be great to actually measure the amount of apap a standard CWE like the one you just described actually contains.

I think the best advice with regards to CWE is that it is not an OK way to maintain and opiate dependence. I actually quit CWE completely because I realised that the way CWE is talked about over the net is often to good to be true and I am quite certain I was taking large daily doses of apap. Codeine also hides the symptoms of the corrosive effects of apap on the gut.

Maybe fully understanding CWE toxicity will help some "chippers" to keep it for special occasions. I think this thread would do a good service for the memership of BL if we made sure that the CWE toxicity message comes across strongly.

"I would be surprised if anyone put CWEs in the same category as regular codeine (I certainly dont anyway.... would WAY prefer refular codeine! )"

Yeah I was surprised when I saw that people often do play down the toxicity of CWE by either playing down the toxicity of apap or over estimating that efficacy of CWE. I am especially worried about the younger members (teens-early twenties). They might know that it is technically not pure codeine but they feel that it is pure enough to not be a health concern.
 
Sonny Jim said:
Yeah, it would be great to actually measure the amount of apap a standard CWE like the one you just described actually contains.

I think the best advice with regards to CWE is that it is not an OK way to maintain and opiate dependence. I actually quit CWE completely because I realised that the way CWE is talked about over the net is often to good to be true and I am quite certain I was taking large daily doses of apap. Codeine also hides the symptoms of the corrosive effects of apap on the gut.

Maybe fully understanding CWE toxicity will help some "chippers" to keep it for special occasions. I think this thread would do a good service for the memership of BL if we made sure that the CWE toxicity message comes across strongly.

"I would be surprised if anyone put CWEs in the same category as regular codeine (I certainly dont anyway.... would WAY prefer refular codeine! )"

Yeah I was surprised when I saw that people often do play down the toxicity of CWE by either playing down the toxicity of apap or over estimating that efficacy of CWE. I am especially worried about the younger members (teens-early twenties). They might know that it is technically not pure codeine but they feel that it is pure enough to not be a health concern.
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I know it's only anecdotal and doesn't count for much, but as I've said a few times in this thread, I was a heavy CWE'er for years and had my liver function tested multiple times across that time period, and it always came back fine. Honestly, you sound a little paranoid to me, the CWE method is quite solid (and safe, imo) if done correctly.
 
The solubility of paracetamol is 9.44mg per ml of water at 10 degrees celcius. So for a 40 tab extraction, if you're using the common method of using 2mls water per pill, you've got 80mls of water. At 9.44mg paracetamol dissolving per ml of water, you'd expect to be left with 755.2mg of dissolved paracetamol in your final extraction. That's just about 1 and a half tablets, which is well within the recommended dosing of paracetamol. Any amount of paracetamol still does work your liver, and it is wise to give it a break, but that is a fairly safe level. Of course this doesn't include any undissolved paracetamol coming through the filter, which means it is important to try and get your cdub as clear as possible.

Source here (with paracetamol solubility in 0, 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25 degrees celcius water too)

Solubility of ibuprofen in water at 25 degrees ceclius is <1mg/ml.
 
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Sonny Jim said:
Yeah, it would be great to actually measure the amount of apap a standard CWE like the one you just described actually contains.

Yeah I was surprised when I saw that people often do play down the toxicity of CWE by either playing down the toxicity of apap or over estimating that efficacy of CWE. I am especially worried about the younger members (teens-early twenties). They might know that it is technically not pure codeine but they feel that it is pure enough to not be a health concern.
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Here's something you can do. Do a CWE, note how cloudy the water is, note how much suspended solids fall out of solution, then get a glass of water, containing same amount of water, and disolve 2 panadols, or 2 nurofen. You will probably notice there's more suspended solids and more solids that drop out of solution with just 2 tablets.

BUT having said that, Before I started using a Nexium and rantidine combo [acid reducers] I would wake up in pain the next morning after a nurofen+ CWE, and even drinking a glass of water was painful first thing in morning. So it sort of seemed like the CWE from ibuprofen was causing me problems, but I don't know if it was due to excess ibuprofen
 
Consuming apap daily for years is not OK even at the recommended dose.

CWE is not safe long term no matter how you paint it and it is potentially lethal in the short term in the wrong hands.

I just wanted to respond to the some of the more carefree approaches to CWE in this thread because I have always found them difficult to read because when I used to use CWE I would search the internet for information that would make me feel better about what I was doing. This thread seem like it has a lot of people trying to reassure each other that CWE is all cool/no worries mate/been doing it for years and I'm not dead but I that is definitely not the truth when it comes to apap/CWE.
 
Sonny Jim said:
Consuming apap daily for years is not OK even at the recommended dose.

CWE is not safe long term no matter how you paint it
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Stop saying apap, nobody in Australia says that. I think it's an american term. and I think you're using this annoying 'apap' for both paracetamol and ibuprofen. I"M pretty sure you can take paracetamol on a daily basis with no health concerns, but it's not recommened you take ibuprofen daily that is true.

Anyway Why is CWE not safe long term as detailed in this thread?
What are the problems?
 
sorry I mean paracetamol or ibuprofen

It is not good for you to take either on a daily basis in the long term.

Its really not.
 
Whosajiggawaaa said:
Anyone else find the need to drink copious amounts of coffee whilst on codeine ?
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Caffeine gives me jitters and takes away from the sedetation a little. I dont get sleepy or tired from it anymore but then again my tolerance is through the roof and bearly feel half a gram of codeine but I can see why people would use it.
 
FWIW ljust got results from recent blood tests as part of a follow-up to hippie detox thing I did a few months ago, and my liver is fine. It has actually improved a great deal since the start of the year and I've been going pretty hard on CWE all year.

Unfortunately my testosterone is still low. Damn opiates :(
 
Whosajiggawaaa said:
Yeah, I don't see how it can be too damaging long term if your end solution is crystal clear and you only use 25ml of water.
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well...i think what sonny jim is arguing is that the colour of the solution isn't necessarily a safe or scientific approach to gauging the amount of paracetamol/ibuprofen/aspirin in the final product.
while i'm not really in any position to make an informed judgement about such things, i can certainly see the validity in the argument that people are rather complacent about this technique and its health risks.
a few of the defensive responses prove his point - some people just don't want to hear it, and are only interested in reading things that will back up their own feelings/beliefs.

i appreciate footscrazy's reply (quoting some scientific data - thank you!) but i think the point does need to be made - CWE is not without its risks. proper technique certainly lessens the potential for harm that is inherent in abusing OTC painkillers, but the idea that this is a safe practice is not a particularly helpful one to hang onto. for the sake of harm reduction, it can never hurt to question these understandings.

yes, we should encourage people who are necking 30 panadeine a day to filter out the paracetamol.
but this doesn't mean the process is 100% safe. it might be, but i'm not really in any position to judge - nor are the majority of internet CWE advocates.

it definitely appears to be a safe option, but it is not above criticism. i cringe when i hear people say they are filtering through a t-shirt then drinking. i haven't tried this - it might be safe, but it is always worth pointing out when there are risks or shortcomings in various techniques.
a poorly-done CWE is dangerous, and claiming that CWE is unquestionably safe is misleading. all care must be taken to ensure people are still making every effort possible to isolate the non-codeine actives and not getting sloppy, lazy or complacent.
opiate addicts are notoriously undiscerning in regard to what they consume (so long as it keeps the withdrawals at bay) so i think it is always in the best interests of HR to keep critiquing and analysing our methods.

i don't necessarily agree with what sonny jim is saying, but complacency about such a simple extraction process is dangerous, and advocating it as an unquestionably healthy solution for everyday use is potentially misleading. the methods most people use to judge its relative safety "i've been doing it for years and i'm ok" or "the water was clear, so it had no paracetamol in it" are hardly scientific.
debate and discussion about it is a good thing! it can't hurt to engage with such arguments rather than dismissing them. the underground body of knowledge that is passed on in online communities like BL is a constantly evolving thing - and that's the way it should be.
 
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spacejunk said:
well...i think what sonny jim is arguing is that the colour of the solution isn't necessarily a safe or scientific approach to gauging the amount of paracetamol/ibuprofen/aspirin in the final product.
.
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He should provide some basis for his statement of fact, not open ended and with no argument.

For example if he said clear water after a CWE is not a sign that the CWE is safe. Then he would explain why clear water is not a sign that the CWE being safe. He might even say all his CWE's were clear and yet even though he doesn't drink he hass has cirrhosis of the liver, or he doesn't drink yet his stomach is so ulcerated he bled out and almost died, and he feels it can't be a coincidence he was doing CWE's

He might be very knowledgeable at chemistry and show how paracetamol is much more soluble when in a solution containing either codeine or one of the fillers in the tablets. He could show that when paracetamol drops out of solution maybe it's crystal is still small enough to pass through a shirt or coffee filter.

I don't have any evidence of any of that, but there s lots he could have said to cause a debate, he just said cwe is dangerous you will harm yourself in the longterm due to excess paracetamol and ibuprofen.. Well prove your point, or make your argument more convincing. You don't really have an argument just a statement of fact without the facts.
 
bobbydarren said:
He should provide some basis for his statement of fact, not open ended and with no argument.

^^^saying a kitchen CWE is safe, is a statement without facts to back it up.

For example if he said clear water after a CWE is not a sign that the CWE is safe. Then he would explain why clear water is not a sign that the CWE being safe. He might even say all his CWE's were clear and yet even though he doesn't drink he hass has cirrhosis of the liver, or he doesn't drink yet his stomach is so ulcerated he bled out and almost died, and he feels it can't be a coincidence he was doing CWE's

I didn't think it was necessary to provide info on paracetamol and ibuprofen toxicity because I was aauming that was common knowledge. My post would have been to big to read if I added that stuff. You only have to read the back of the pack to know that is not OK. Depending on the drug we should worry about liver, kidney, very serious cardiovascular, nasty gut stuff.

He might be very knowledgeable at chemistry and show how paracetamol is much more soluble when in a solution containing either codeine or one of the fillers in the tablets. He could show that when paracetamol drops out of solution maybe it's crystal is still small enough to pass through a shirt or coffee filter.

I don’t think it is necessary for there to be factors that increase the solubility of either paracetamol or ibuprofen, or even filter problems to raise concerns about the safety of CWE i.e. it is already questionable.. There is paracetamol or ibuprofen dissolved in any CWE, even those that appear to be clear, the question is how much and what exactly does CWE mean (i.e there is variation in technique).
Evidence?
Paracetamol and ibuprofen are soluble in cold water. Footscrazy posted some article about this.
Why isn’t it a good idea to err on the side of caution with these drugs?

I don't have any evidence of any of that, but there s lots he could have said to cause a debate, he just said cwe is dangerous you will harm yourself in the longterm due to excess paracetamol and ibuprofen.. Well prove your point, or make your argument more convincing. You don't really have an argument just a statement of fact without the facts.
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I don't think it is an unreasonable concern so shouldn't the onus of proof be on the proponents. Are you asking me to detail the toxicology of each drug? People have suffered acute paracetamol/ibuprofen/aspirin poisoning from failed CWEs. I know of a couple of reports on erowid. Maybe I should try to I find them but is it really necessary, can’t we just accept that it can go wrong?

I am not trying to say that it is not possible to filter significant amounts of ibuprofen or paracetamol from a CWE. We know that is possible.

I am just stating the obviously really, that if you do a good CWE you will be consuming some undesirables. Depending on the amount of tabs (some people use 40-100 tabs) your dose of undesirables will most likely be significant from greater amounts of tabs. I am also saying that some of the descriptions of CWE techniques posted in this thread seem dangerous, especially in the long term. I felt I needed to state the obvious I thought some obvious safety concerns were being ignored and people seemed to put too much faith in the term CWE . The term CWE means several things in this thread so we are not all even talking about the same thing, which is another concern I had with this thread.

Another thing I wanted to add was and I think this is rare but some people use a technique which involves using cold tap temperature water or lukewarm or even warm water to make sure all the codeine gets dissolved then attempt to force the precipitation of the paracetamol or ibuprofen by dropping the temp to just above zero. I think people should question whether they are actually able to cause the ibuprofen or paracetamol that was in solution to actually precipitate back out of the solution in amounts that safely lower the amount of these drugs in the final product.

Edit for clarity.
 
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Removing and apologies for post! :\ Lethargy + certain rambling-inducing drugs clearly don't mix well with me! Random, often nonsensical tangents clearly didn't have a good result!

Again, apologies, lesson learnt, and I hope I didn't offend anyone too much!

*walks away with head sunken* :)

Yes, yes, apologies for all which my posts may have rubbed the wrong way!

Sonny Jim, I would like to/tried PM'ing you but you're inbox in full atm.
 
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