Codeine and CWE Megathread - The long awaited!

[Sonny Jim]

^^^
I have read your post a couple of times and I am sorry but I can't quite work out what your trying to say. I'm not trying to be rude or anything I just can't tell exactly what you're saying and if it is directed at me.

I never said I had a problem with the thread, I was adding to it, not trying to shut it down. If that is what you were getting at?

 

[spacejunk]

i don't see what is lacking in sonny jim's argument.
what is so hard to understand about someone saying something to the effect of "this isn't as foolproof as some people are making out".

@ bobby darren:

He should provide some basis for his statement of fact, not open ended and with no argument

i would turn this remark back at you. what exactly are you arguing?

i clearly understand what sonny jim is arguing, but if you're suggesting that CWE is 100% safe (and that "clear" solution = 0% unwanted actives) then i'd like to see some evidence.
"no argument" you reckon? read it again!
this idea that you can't question something without all the facts renders the majority of discussion on this forum invalid.
sure, lots of people can maintain their habits on CWE for years with no apparent ill-effect, but the same could probably be said for pack-a-day smokers. "oh my grandfather smokes 40 a day and he's just fine"
doesn't mean it's safe, that's nonsense.
appealing for people to take more care and to actually think about the process is surely what forums like bluelight are all about. evolving our understanding doesn't happen by just letting things be.
i suppose some people don't want to think, they just want to talk about drugs.


edit - tyrael, i'm a bit confused. first you say this:

I could probably put forward as many example of people who were/are heavy codeine (that is, solely dose using the CWE method) users and are in no way symptomatic and have shown no problems on a liver function test

and then this:

If one wants to take part in any sort of logical, evidence based, reasoning/debating then, yes, in order to have any sort of weight or validity behind the claim then one must provide evidence of said claim(s)! Basic debating skills - no straw-man arguments, correlation does not equal causation, no over-generalisations/taking outliers as the norm, etc - see these all too often on forums!

For example, you don't see newly created drugs moving through each development stage on the basis of what one (or two or a few) people might say!

i absolutely agree with sonny jim that the onus of proof should be on those claiming CWE is safe.

 

[Whosajiggawaaa]

All I see is arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[spacejunk]

funny that; me too.

 

[tyrael]

Yes, yes all! (as a loose example it may actually possibly be, and admittedly self induced) When one has been awake a minimum 48 hours plus, other effecting influences - this generally impair ones cognitive/logical processes. I reread what I wrote and I didn't make sense to me! So, again, apologies! Especially since I do generally pride myself on my opiate(s), (and specifically) codeine and associated properties - pharma-cology-genetics, LD/TDs, dose-response graphs, etc.

Yeah, it would be great to actually measure the amount of apap a standard CWE like the one you just described actually contains.

....

Maybe fully understanding CWE toxicity will help some "chippers" to keep it for special occasions. I think this thread would do a good service for the memership of BL if we made sure that the CWE toxicity message comes across strongly.

Sigh, I will go into further details later, however something I have noticed in the last few months in a huge negatively push towards CWE's! As I have started many, many times - TAKING ANY DRUGS IS NOT WITHOUT THEIR RISKS - more so then others but if one has decided to par-take, said person should be given as much information (positives, negatives, set/setting, etc. and THEN allow THEM (since in the end it's not YOUR decision) to decide!

"I would be surprised if anyone put CWEs in the same category as regular codeine (I certainly dont anyway.... would WAY prefer refular codeine! not

Err, so if you're able to get "pure" (and obviously nothing can be pure. Espeically once it reaches the consumer - binders, fillers) codeine pills, of course noone would post-process them (unless they're wanting to then convert it into another drugs - diacetylmorphine or the like. But basically, whether it's in p.fort table (with the extra 500mg).... 3-methylmorphine == 3-methylmorphine! Codeine (Phosphate) which is the most commonly used salt in Australia (possibly different different in other countries). Any pill containing Codeine is in that form - it's the most stable and easiest to use. I am sure there would be some extremely smart people out who may want to extract, purify and turn it into the freebase - doubtful though!

Yeah I was surprised when I saw that people often do play down the toxicity of CWE by either playing down the toxicity of apap or over estimating that efficacy of CWE. I am especially worried about the younger members (teens-early twenties). They might know that it is technically not pure codeine but they feel that it is pure enough to not be a health concern.

I would in no way talk down the risks of ANY drugs - OTC, sched4/5/6 - all drugs can (and I have seen) negative side effects - something from a cough to hospitalisation. BL however isn't about Government propaganda, pushing one or anothers agenda, scaremongering, it's about - if one asks a questions regarding a drug/dosages/MOA/ROA/etc. no judgement should be passed, positives and the negative should be full explained, plus what else the member may ask - unbiased, non-judgemental, facts should presented. And hey, they may surprise you decide they don't wanna, or they may still - difference being they're information with, in the end, help everyone to follow Harm/Minimisation tech

 

[spacejunk]

that's cool
i just think that sonny jim is making some really valid points in this thread.
i've done plenty of cold water extractions (on daily basis for a couple of years) but we could all benefit from a greater understanding and refined process.

 

[bobbydarren]

i don't see what is lacking in sonny jim's argument.
what is so hard to understand about someone saying something to the effect of "this isn't as foolproof as some people are making out".

@ bobby darren:
i would turn this remark back at you. what exactly are you arguing?

i clearly understand what sonny jim is arguing, but if you're suggesting that CWE is 100% safe (and that "clear" solution = 0% unwanted actives) then i'd like to see some evidence.

i absolutely agree with sonny jim that the onus of proof should be on those claiming CWE is safe.

Solubility tables for paracetamol, ibuprofen and codeine is why we assume it's safe.
After a CWE note how much particle matter is in suspension and I guess fallen out of suspension.

Now with the same amount of water in another glass with the water at the same temperature crush 2 of the same tablets and stir it so that as much as possible will go into solution. What you should see if the CWE was a success is that the amount of particle matter in suspension and in the bottom of the glass is less with the CWE then it is with the safe recommended dose.

So You will be consuming less than 1000mg paracetamol or 400mg ibuprofen when you do a successful CWE
That is the assumption I make, but if it's wrong then my organs would be happy to hear about it.

 

[tyrael]

.... I'm not trying to be rude or anything I just can't tell exactly what you're saying and if it is directed at me....

No, no Jim! After you post I actually re-read what I actually wrote - very late a night, still going from NYE, no sleep, etc. Granted it's not a full experience but at least I thought I'd delete it all and start again. lol. Hopefully I'm a little more coherent a few posts down?

 

[tyrael]

Watched this space! ^_^

 

[Whosajiggawaaa]

lol

 

[tyrael]

*sigh*, wake me up in a few days time, I might be making a little more sense then!!!

Peace out brothers!

 

[tyrael]

To begin with, apologies for the quotes and comments - NY/Christmas has been crazy! So.....

Yeah, it would be great to actually measure the amount of apap a standard CWE like the one you just described actually contains.

Tbh it's not exceedingly difficult to. Most(all?) of the recreational users wouldn't be able to separate the two (and then run them through purifying techniques)

"I would be surprised if anyone put CWEs in the same category as regular codeine (I certainly dont anyway.... would WAY prefer refular codeine! )"

Yeah I was surprised when I saw that people often do play down the toxicity of CWE by either playing down the toxicity of apap or over estimating that efficacy of CWE. I am especially worried about the younger members (teens-early twenties). They might know that it is technically not pure codeine but they feel that it is pure enough to not be a health concern.

First sentence, umm, so what would you actually called codeine (phosphate - not sure now technical you want to get there) which was extracted via a CWE (or other methods) as a posed to say, a codeine in a pill (Again, still codeine phosphate and with a standard Adult dose of say 15mg/30mg)?

Secondly, who in their right mind would perform a CWE with analgesia in mind! In analgesic efficacy a pt is generally not prescribed any more then (I think - its been a while) around 150mg! If a pt present or experiences chronic pain, a strong opiate will be given.

Having said this, I do agree with regarding the possible recent "laxed-attitude" (and honestly I wouldn't say it one, or a few, nor all) of, say, moderators since they're supposed to enforcer the "rules"* {Follow the atrixif ya interesting in psychology, I got a little carried away. lol}









*And not saying this as an excuse or necessarily a defence but (and this can very and often extended to any things) if one is constantly exposed to "something" (an event/constantly being told you're stupid/being bullied/whatever) it's extremely easy to habituate to that, and if the experience is constantly negative, this can dramatically effect ones physci.

 

[tyrael]

Ok, so now that I'm a well rested and sober Tyrael, I can now read/understand and form complete/logical posts! lol *sigh*

....
CWE is not safe long term no matter how you paint it and it is potentially lethal in the short term in the wrong hands.
....

I am generally not one to debate a topic, and even more so if I'm not overly professant in the field/topic - opiates (and clearly possible drug interactions and the like) however.... . Consequently, I have read/studied/utilised what I've needed. That being said, I will be one to admit I have not researched extensively of long term effects of paracet/ibupro (to a lesser extent Asprin but more so the others)).

Like I said Jim, I wont argue the point either way. But as I did state before. One can't put forward an argument with "evidence" (I would assume you could reference?) Which may based solely on anecdotal evidence, non-industry standardised, etc.

I do understand I might be making assumptions about, for instance, you're convictions on how dangerous CWE's are.

However at the same time, until I'm able to view a peer-reviewed journal (which followed general industry standards, controlled double blind experiments, wont (necessarily) funded and hence influenced to prove efficacy. Call me cynical!

....
I just wanted to respond to the some of the more carefree approaches to CWE in this thread
.....

Again, I do somewhat agree. A healthy scepticism is definitely a good thing!. A CWE - say a few times a month* - I'm extremely confident to put money on there would be no issues (although, agreeing with you, as long as the user follows "proper/correct" procedures)










* A month was kinda pulled out of no where though! I know many people - myself included and currently seeking treatment for it where, and it's peak, I would have easily done four 30x poteniated with at least 100mg of DXM!

 

[Sonny Jim]

tyrael

"I would be surprised if anyone put CWEs in the same category as regular codeine (I certainly dont anyway.... would WAY prefer refular codeine! )"

I didn't type this, this is pinkanga's text I was quoting lol!

 

[Sonny Jim]

Tyrael wrote:

"Again, I do somewhat agree. A healthy scepticism is definitely a good thing!. A CWE - say a few times a month* - I'm extremely confident to put money on there would be no issues (although, agreeing with you, as long as the user follows "proper/correct" procedures)"

Lol, that is pretty much what I wrote in one of my posts.

 

[tyrael]

that's cool
i just think that sonny jim is making some really valid points in this thread.
i've done plenty of cold water extractions (on daily basis for a couple of years) but we could all benefit from a greater understanding and refined process.

Hey sincerely good luck if you want to get deep!! Considering it would be one of the world's most commonly (legally) sold drugs - it's a pretty difficult, hmm "difficult" might not be the correct word, but an different MOA's, metabolised by many enzymes, etc.

Even for instance a pt present in ED with symptoms of, and confirmed by themselves/relatives, bloods, etc - generally one does not become symptomatic (when caused by paracetamol OD) until it's generally too late! There's more often then not a "delay" of sorts before any symptoms present and as I said before!

What I find even more tragic is the fact that so extremely easy but kids/teenages. And we know what teenages are - break up with their partner (of say 2 weeks) one day, it's the end of the world, they attempt to commit suicide yet generally literally the next days they're fine, their think there ok until days later and often its too late.

This an "antidote" - acetylcysteine (It's actually not a antidote in term most people would think of) but other then that (afaik) all treatments are based symptomatically.




Sorry for hyjacking the thread guys! I can send this as a PM if you're interested spacejunk?

 

[tyrael]

Tyrael wrote:

"Again, I do somewhat agree. A healthy scepticism is definitely a good thing!. A CWE - say a few times a month* - I'm extremely confident to put money on there would be no issues (although, agreeing with you, as long as the user follows "proper/correct" procedures)"

Lol, that is pretty much what I wrote in one of my posts.

Jeebus, it is pick on Tyrael day!?!?! Good start to my 2012 ey

My fault, mental reminder - no BL posts while offtap! lol


I do apologise though Jim, I admittedly didn't read that whole convo! ^_^

 

[pinkanga]

I think most people would agree with me in saying that consuming 10 pills containing 30mg codeine is preferable to performing a CWE on 30 generic panadeines right?

Thats all I was saying when I said that most people in this thread wouldnt put codeine pills in the same category as a CWE codeine solution.

 

[Whosajiggawaaa]

Ruin the thread moar!

 

[mooms]

does anyone know if the final product can be stored for later use? sometime i'll do an extraction and not feel like consuming at the time.