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Can you believe this shit?!

[...] you're part of the reason it's so difficult for people who legitimately need these medications to get adequate treatment.

Not to beat up on the OP--if only because it's worth questioning how much of the claim that he doesn't really need the drugs is true--but wanted to emphasize this quote, since it applies to everyone who abuses medications for which many have a genuine need.

The end result of the increasing abuse of prescription drugs will be:

1) increased regulation and scrutiny, including at the regulatory approval stage;
2) increased medical reluctance to use the medication, since the potential harm of abuse must now be given greater weight;
3) decreased pharmaceutical interest in developing medications of certain classes, or that have abuse potential, as Factors 1 and 2 will ultimately reduce the market or reduce the likelihood that the drug will gain regulatory approval.

I suspect some of the recent decisions to scrap development of new sleep-aids, wakefulness promoting agents, cognitive enhancers, etc., are tied to this.

It's strange to me that we're all very socially aware of the possible externalities, costs, of driving our cars inefficiently, not recycling, etc., but so willfully ignorant of the costs we impose on others by abusing medications (especially when we wrap ourselves in the libertarian flag).
 
Might only be marijuana but you agreed to certain conditions when entering pain program. By failing drug test you failed to adhere to the conditions. Doctor has every right to kick you off.

Do feel for you though. Would of been another thing if positive for heroin, coke, or amphetamines.

Try to reason with him if first time offense. My Suboxone doctor was real hard ass. Ended up testing positive for heroin once. Used out of curiosity. Explained to him. Let me continue program but followed up with another drug test.

Should be fine.

Word every sub doctor I've ever even heard of is like that. My friend got in the most trouble with his for weed too. He's relapsed a few times and even sold his suboxone and made up bullshit stories to get more a couple and yet weed almost got him out of his suboxone.

This is a pet pieve of mine anyways as alcohol with all the damage it does is perfectly legal while people's lives are fucked with over marajuana. Its fucking weed! You don't crash your car and beat your gf high on weed. You aren't in any physical danger If you stop smoking weed. The worst that ever happened to me is a little paranoia and maybe too much junk food. I've never called in sick because I smoked too much the night before.

I hate it that people are afraid of weed because of its social perception. No one sees their neighbor having a couple beers after work and thinks anything of it but If I get caught smoking a bowl I'm a loser pothead... I could go on for days
 
Bluelight is really umm, whats the word, unsympathetic.

Unfortunately you agreed to these conditions so you have no real recourse... other than plea your case (which is valid) and hope your doctor is more compassionate towards pot smokers than the mods at bluelight.

Luckily your not as addicted to these drugs as your doctor believes, this is your saving grace. I suggest in the future you be honest about smoking pot with your doctor before you get the script for opiates, just be upfront, many many doctors (even the dreaded pain clinics) will treat potsmokers with no problems.

Don't let the people around here get you down, some crazy trend to side with the man or something? Damn kids these days.
 
Welp, i go to my sub doctor monday and im going to fail for weed for sure.... fuckin sucks. hopefully, i wont get kicked off i think he might just tell me to have a clean test the next time its a really laid back cool place where i think i might even tell them before i fail.
 
Bluelight is really umm, whats the word, unsympathetic.

Unfortunately you agreed to these conditions so you have no real recourse... other than plea your case (which is valid) and hope your doctor is more compassionate towards pot smokers than the mods at bluelight.
.

If it were a simple mistake or he screwed up and used dope I can accept and empathise with that. But it's not. He basically says he has been scamming the doctor and then proceeds to blame the doctor. It's people like this who make it difficult for people in real pain and with real anxiety to get the medications they need. I assure you, it's those people I sympathise with.
 
I find it interesting that prescription opiates seem to be such a problem in the US.

Why is this?

In the UK we have FREE access to doctors and pain clinics, but drugs like Oxycontin are pretty much unheard of here (at street level).
 
^If he is indeed scamming the doctor, thats a different issue entirely.

I never got the impression he didn't need the medication....if thats the case, than yea, his arguement doesn't have a good leg to stand on.

I happen to be personally frustrated that Im being railroaded into quitting pot for subs, coulda been a hot button. Damn doctor said he didn't care when I signed up to. sigh.
 
You have to quit pot to get suboxone?

I can just about undrstand having to give clean test for proper agonists, but bupe?
 
My Suboxone doctor asked me if anything else would show up in my urine test, and when I told him marijuana, he said that was okay but I need to quit it. My doctor's belief is that although buprenorphine is a powerful opioid, you can't recover if you are still living that illegal lifestyle of having to buy drugs. To him, it more about the mentality than the actual effects of cannabis. My doctor wouldn't kick me out for testing positive for cannabis, but he wouldn't be happy about it.

Anyway, I think everything has been said here except for one thing. If you do get dropped, don't give your lecture like you had planned - just accept it and leave. The more you aggravate the situation, the more likely they are to put something in your records that will keep you from finding a new doctor now or in the future. Going on a rant in front of your doctor isn't going to accomplish anything.
 
Not to beat up on the OP--if only because it's worth questioning how much of the claim that he doesn't really need the drugs is true--but wanted to emphasize this quote, since it applies to everyone who abuses medications for which many have a genuine need.

The end result of the increasing abuse of prescription drugs will be:

1) increased regulation and scrutiny, including at the regulatory approval stage;
2) increased medical reluctance to use the medication, since the potential harm of abuse must now be given greater weight;
3) decreased pharmaceutical interest in developing medications of certain classes, or that have abuse potential, as Factors 1 and 2 will ultimately reduce the market or reduce the likelihood that the drug will gain regulatory approval.

I suspect some of the recent decisions to scrap development of new sleep-aids, wakefulness promoting agents, cognitive enhancers, etc., are tied to this.

It's strange to me that we're all very socially aware of the possible externalities, costs, of driving our cars inefficiently, not recycling, etc., but so willfully ignorant of the costs we impose on others by abusing medications (especially when we wrap ourselves in the libertarian flag).

So you blame the people abusing drugs? Are you saying you agree with regulations on drugs that only hurt those that need them? I'm not even sure what is gained in the regulation of pharmaceuticals anyway. We have doctors for a reason and government regulation on drugs have never done anything positive. I can understand where you're coming from but I can't say I agree that the chief problem is people snorting pills or whatever. IMO the govt is over stepping its boundries but, I hold myself accountable for my own problems and addictions. They are making victims where there were none and I think that's why people should be out raged. I think perhaps money has a lot more to do with everything than you might think. I really don't see companies stopping production on a drug the the US itself makes money on. IMO in time when enough people point the finger at the people making the rules for screwing them over things will change but untill then I see no reason to crusade against drug use purely because they're pharmaceuticals. Its the regulation of any drug that causes the problems from Prohibition up untill now and I don't see why pharmaceuticals are any different. Even hardcore street drugs were OTC at one point and look at them now, backed by cartels with machine guns with addicts killing and stealing for them.

Ya in a perfect world no one would touch them because people need em. That's just not gonna happen so how about some realism with the bullshit rules.
 
I am anxious to find out this young man's fate.

If you sign a contract stating that you will not use any illegal drugs including marijuana, and said contract states that if you test positive for any illegal drug you will be terminated from the pain clinic, you pretty much deserve to get booted without a second chance...

Whether or not Marijuana should be legalized is not relevant in this case

-thelung-
 
Whether or not Marijuana should be legalized is not relevant in this case

-thelung-

Ya he signed a contract and he shouldn't have violated it. Should he lose his meds because of the legal status of weed, I don't think so. IMO the entire thread is about the perception of weed to doctors and the public. Am I in a different thread?
 
Johnny Blue - I don't think many people disagree that the system is fucked up. However, the doctor did not create the system, he just has to live and work within it. The DEA keeps an unblinking eye on him, and it's selfish and irresponsible to cheat him for a few pills that you don't need, and even worse to blame him for your own pot smoking on top of it. Whether he does or does not believe his patients should be allowed to smoke pot, the DEA certainly does not, and the doctor has to answer to them.

In a perfect world, it wouldn't matter... but U.S. drug laws are far from perfect, and causing trouble for an innocent doctor is not going to change that.

Bluelight is really umm, whats the word, unsympathetic.
[...]
Don't let the people around here get you down, some crazy trend to side with the man or something? Damn kids these days.

It's not siding with 'the man'... it's siding with the people who are treated like criminals for trying to treat their legitimate issues, because so many other people are faking it and pushing the doctors to their limits just to get high; and also siding with the doctors who are just trying to make a living.

I have friends and family who are doctors, and they have families of their own who depend on them. It's not worth flushing the livelihood of themselves and their families down the tubes so that some junkie can get his percocet AND smoke a doobie while he's at it.

I happen to be personally frustrated that Im being railroaded into quitting pot for subs, coulda been a hot button. Damn doctor said he didn't care when I signed up to. sigh.

Unfortunately, most sub doctors are not trying to make a living, they're making a killing. $100 fucking dollars per visit, cash only, no insurances accepted, just to see the doc for 30 seconds while he writes a script and says "see ya in a month". That's pure unadulterated bullshit.

My doctor is a scumbag. I'm taking 8mg per day, and he tells me after my visit "Now remember, if you're really taking 16mgs a day and you're going to run out, just call me and i'll give you a refill"... sounds great, right? It would be if it weren't only so that he could squeeze and extra $100 per month out of his limited 100 patients.

When he prints up a receipt, he even writes that the charge is only $60... so that 40% of the income goes untaxed. AND he charges an extra $20 cash per visit every time he decided to give a patient a UA.

I'm also pissed that I had to give up smoking pot, so that my junkie doctor (his eyes are ALWAYS pinned, and his family, also doctors, have been arrested for overprescribing oxy and opana, and having patients kick some pills back to them in the parking lot of the pharmacy) can cover his ass. But the bottom line is that I need the pills, so I gotta play the game, no matter how 'unfair' it is. If you don't need the pills, weigh your priorities: pills, or weed? what's more important.

I'm sorry to hear you have to give up pot to get subs. I know how much that sucks, unfortunately... I'm going on 6 months without a single toke. Ironically, I can still stick a spike in my veins any time except a few days before my monthly appointment.... but such is life: "Fair" is a pipedream.
 
So you blame the people abusing drugs? Are you saying you agree with regulations on drugs that only hurt those that need them? I'm not even sure what is gained in the regulation of pharmaceuticals anyway. We have doctors for a reason and government regulation on drugs have never done anything positive. I can understand where you're coming from but I can't say I agree that the chief problem is people snorting pills or whatever. IMO the govt is over stepping its boundries but, I hold myself accountable for my own problems and addictions. They are making victims where there were none and I think that's why people should be out raged. I think perhaps money has a lot more to do with everything than you might think. I really don't see companies stopping production on a drug the the US itself makes money on. IMO in time when enough people point the finger at the people making the rules for screwing them over things will change but untill then I see no reason to crusade against drug use purely because they're pharmaceuticals. .

Just to clarify:

I don't agree with current drug laws in the US. No one here is advocating a crusade.

My point is that abuse of prescription meds, doctor-scamming, etc., does lead to greater regulatory scrutiny, and does lead to greater law enforcement attention, and does lead to the negative consequences I outlined for people who genuinely need these, or similar, medications. I'd like to see a little more awareness of that fact among those who choose to scam doctors or abuse meds. I don't like those consequences; I don't think those SHOULD be the consequences.

I don't think it is right that those are the consequences. But, that's what they are. The OP's actions, imho, contribute to those consequences. Just my two cents, that's all.

As far as pharmaceutical companies being less likely to develop a medication because of the abuse potential... well, I guess we're already outside the forum discussion area. Certainly inside the US it is a strong factor weighing against development.
 
Johnny Blue - I don't think many people disagree that the system is fucked up. However, the doctor did not create the system, he just has to live and work within it. The DEA keeps an unblinking eye on him, and it's selfish and irresponsible to cheat him for a few pills that you don't need, and even worse to blame him for your own pot smoking on top of it. Whether he does or does not believe his patients should be allowed to smoke pot, the DEA certainly does not, and the doctor has to answer to them.

In a perfect world, it wouldn't matter... but U.S. drug laws are far from perfect, and causing trouble for an innocent doctor is not going to change that.



It's not siding with 'the man'... it's siding with the people who are treated like criminals for trying to treat their legitimate issues, because so many other people are faking it and pushing the doctors to their limits just to get high; and also siding with the doctors who are just trying to make a living.


Just to clarify:

I don't agree with current drug laws in the US. No one here is advocating a crusade.

My point is that abuse of prescription meds, doctor-scamming, etc., does lead to greater regulatory scrutiny, and does lead to greater law enforcement attention, and does lead to the negative consequences I outlined for people who genuinely need these, or similar, medications. I'd like to see a little more awareness of that fact among those who choose to scam doctors or abuse meds. I don't like those consequences; I don't think those SHOULD be the consequences.

I don't think it is right that those are the consequences. But, that's what they are. The OP's actions, imho, contribute to those consequences. Just my two cents, that's all.

As far as pharmaceutical companies being less likely to develop a medication because of the abuse potential... well, I guess we're already outside the forum discussion area. Certainly inside the US it is a strong factor weighing against development.

Just to clarify I don't doctor shop. I don't even know anyone who does. That said, I have to say...... no shit. Are you assuming that people don't know what laws are in place? I just don't get why every thread that someone says the word doctor turns into this. It's getting old and what you plan on accomplishing by telling someone that's already made a decision to go in and scam a doctor is beyond me. This is like telling someone drugs are bad. I'm 1000% positive that the guy who's ripping off his doctor is aware of their poor moral choices.

I have a hard time feeling bad for a doctor that was previously passing CIIs out like candy and is now forced to hold back. Did it ever cross your mind that the over use of drugs like oxy could be contributing factors. I'd just love to see some stats on how many doctor shoppers there are and all the week minded victim doctors there must be. I mean you guys need your meds and can't get em but these bad guys can?

As far as pharmaceutical companies not producing drugs for any reason get real. Ya the naloxone in suboxone prevents abuse, that's how it's different than subutex;) It's called money, this is america, that's how things work. I hate to be the one to break this to ya but the companies and the govt don't give a fuck about you, they want your money and all they have to do is say "It's tamper proof" and off it goes to the doctors. I'd love to hear an example of what you're talking about.
 
The question isnt whether green should be legal or not, the issue is maturity, if you sign something and break the rules be mature and take it on the chin. If this was about a lease not a narcotic contract people would be calling this man out left and right. Weed should be legal but many PM patients abstain as the meds the get are a godsends to them. Have pity for somebody who followed the rules and got dicked.
 
Just to clarify I don't doctor shop. I don't even know anyone who does. That said, I have to say...... no shit. Are you assuming that people don't know what laws are in place? I just don't get why every thread that someone says the word doctor turns into this. It's getting old and what you plan on accomplishing by telling someone that's already made a decision to go in and scam a doctor is beyond me. This is like telling someone drugs are bad. I'm 1000% positive that the guy who's ripping off his doctor is aware of their poor moral choices.

I have a hard time feeling bad for a doctor that was previously passing CIIs out like candy and is now forced to hold back. Did it ever cross your mind that the over use of drugs like oxy could be contributing factors. I'd just love to see some stats on how many doctor shoppers there are and all the week minded victim doctors there must be. I mean you guys need your meds and can't get em but these bad guys can?

As far as pharmaceutical companies not producing drugs for any reason get real. Ya the naloxone in suboxone prevents abuse, that's how it's different than subutex;) It's called money, this is america, that's how things work. I hate to be the one to break this to ya but the companies and the govt don't give a fuck about you, they want your money and all they have to do is say "It's tamper proof" and off it goes to the doctors. I'd love to hear an example of what you're talking about.

No one said you doctor shopped. No one is attacking you. No need to be antagonistic here. Just a friendly discussion, right?

As far as saying "hey, maybe you shouldn't do that," or "have you thought about these kinds of consequences," or similar remarks, it's got nothing to do with whether the OP will actually change his behavior. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but there's little harm in him getting the viewpoint of some of his peers. And who knows, maybe the expression by others of thoughts already in his head will reinforce those thoughts, and lead to a different decision. I don't know. Neither do you. But there's nothing wrong with a conversation about it, right?

America, everywhere, works on self-interest, not just money. That means that regulatory agencies have a certain amount of self-interest in preserving power, which requires them to exercise that power and justify the exercise; bureaucracies have an interest in sustaining themselves and expanding their budgets, including the FDA. Whether you think it's out of self-interest, altruism, or some mixture, they take their mission seriously.

For pharmaceuticals, part of self-interest means avoiding lawsuits (the Supreme Court very recently held that neither regulatory approval, nor warning labels, bars a plaintiff from pursuing a lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company), which increase in likelihood with the abuse potential of a drug.

Pharmaceutical companies also want to avoid pushing a drug through a very expensive development process and clinical trials in an attempt to gain regulatory approval, when there is a substantial likelihood the FDA will not approve, and when, even if approval is granted, the number of warnings and limitations may mean a vastly reduced market, with doctors reluctant to prescribe.

You can throw in the self-interest of politicians to cap things off. "Hey, these drugs are out there that are harming our children. We should stop children from being harmed. You're not for harming children are you? Then we need to crack down on these drugs." The pharmaceutical companies hear that, the public hears that, other politicians hear that, Congress and state legislatures hear, doctors hear that. You can imagine the net result.

Pharmaceuticals find themselves unable to produce drugs, or find it wise to drop the development of a drug, all the time. For examples of drugs dropped in particular because of concerns about abuse potential... just off the top of my head, you might try googling up some names of sleep aids that were touted as promising at one point--indipon, or something, would be an example--but that were dropped from development, allegedly, in part, because of concerns about abuse potential and the ramifications for approval, marketing, and patient use. I'm sure others on here more knowledgeable than me have other examples in mind.
 
No one said you doctor shopped. No one is attacking you. No need to be antagonistic here. Just a friendly discussion, right?

As far as saying "hey, maybe you shouldn't do that," or "have you thought about these kinds of consequences," or similar remarks, it's got nothing to do with whether the OP will actually change his behavior. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but there's little harm in him getting the viewpoint of some of his peers. And who knows, maybe the expression by others of thoughts already in his head will reinforce those thoughts, and lead to a different decision. I don't know. Neither do you. But there's nothing wrong with a conversation about it, right?

America, everywhere, works on self-interest, not just money. That means that regulatory agencies have a certain amount of self-interest in preserving power, which requires them to exercise that power and justify the exercise; bureaucracies have an interest in sustaining themselves and expanding their budgets, including the FDA. Whether you think it's out of self-interest, altruism, or some mixture, they take their mission seriously.

For pharmaceuticals, part of self-interest means avoiding lawsuits (the Supreme Court very recently held that neither regulatory approval, nor warning labels, bars a plaintiff from pursuing a lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company), which increase in likelihood with the abuse potential of a drug.

Pharmaceutical companies also want to avoid pushing a drug through a very expensive development process and clinical trials in an attempt to gain regulatory approval, when there is a substantial likelihood the FDA will not approve, and when, even if approval is granted, the number of warnings and limitations may mean a vastly reduced market, with doctors reluctant to prescribe.

You can throw in the self-interest of politicians to cap things off. "Hey, these drugs are out there that are harming our children. We should stop children from being harmed. You're not for harming children are you? Then we need to crack down on these drugs." The pharmaceutical companies hear that, the public hears that, other politicians hear that, Congress and state legislatures hear, doctors hear that. You can imagine the net result.

Pharmaceuticals find themselves unable to produce drugs, or find it wise to drop the development of a drug, all the time. For examples of drugs dropped in particular because of concerns about abuse potential... just off the top of my head, you might try googling up some names of sleep aids that were touted as promising at one point--indipon, or something, would be an example--but that were dropped from development, allegedly, in part, because of concerns about abuse potential and the ramifications for approval, marketing, and patient use. I'm sure others on here more knowledgeable than me have other examples in mind.

Wow shocker not 1 concrete example! Thanks for the lesson in nothing. Just as the past 20 pain patient vs. Junkie threads have been this too has gone no where. If you want to be proactive how about approaching a congressman or writing a letter to someone that matters or you can just say something that's been said here 1billion times.:)

Something about children and whatever else? I asked for an example instead I get 3 paragraphs of pure speculation.

I'd like to have a conversation however I want facts that back up the common complaint of its the junkies fault I don't have my meds. Everyone always says it and preaches it like god himself told you that and yet not one stat to back it up. Who's telling you that the doctors? Hmm...

A sleep aid with abuse potential? Are you trolling me? If you reached any further to make a point you'd fall out of your shoes. Oh no the sleep aid didn't get approved! To bad there's not 10 more I can take and get prescribed no problem. A sleep aid that's your example? Let's face it dude, its pain meds that are under the most scrutiny. IMO a large part of that is the doctors over prescribing them. Plenty of countries get along just fine without certain drugs and if a doctor gives me meds I'm gonna take em. I'd be willing to bet that docs are equally if not moreso responsible for the regulations as it was them going nuts with em in the first place. How can you even say it was the shoppers fault when its very easy to monitor who's doing it, nowadays people don't make it too far scaming doctors. Still though I'd love to see a number on this. Who knows maybe you're right but I'm not googling anything, I have nothing to prove.

Peace

PS welcome to bluelight:)
 
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Look at recent AMA studies- most doctors are UNDER prescribing opiates, many by admission due to fear of addiction, fear of investigation, etc. I agree with much of what you're saying but if you're going to complain about his speculation (which it is, back it up, man) then demonstration your point with "concrete examples".

I think the situation is too complex to blame junkies or doctors or whomever, they all play a role. Junkies scamming doctors DOES hurt pain patients on the micro and macro levels- individual doctors being burned in the past are going to be more careful and the DEA cracking down is going to have a widespread effect.

You say that since junkies can get drugs then why can't pain patients? For me, I have an HMO and I'm broke. I can see certain doctors or pay hundreds-thousands out of pocket to go outside of my HMO so I am stuck with what I have. Junkies can doctor shop, they can go to the street. They get bounced from one pain clinic, they can find another, etc.
 
Look at recent AMA studies- most doctors are UNDER prescribing opiates, many by admission due to fear of addiction, fear of investigation, etc. I agree with much of what you're saying but if you're going to complain about his speculation (which it is, back it up, man) then demonstration your point with "concrete examples".

I think the situation is too complex to blame junkies or doctors or whomever, they all play a role. Junkies scamming doctors DOES hurt pain patients on the micro and macro levels- individual doctors being burned in the past are going to be more careful and the DEA cracking down is going to have a widespread effect.

You say that since junkies can get drugs then why can't pain patients? For me, I have an HMO and I'm broke. I can see certain doctors or pay hundreds-thousands out of pocket to go outside of my HMO so I am stuck with what I have. Junkies can doctor shop, they can go to the street. They get bounced from one pain clinic, they can find another, etc.

QFT, thank you for bringing some clarity to this, couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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