Botanical and Herbal board?

[treezy z]

^This hypothetical board will most likely not cover psychedelic ethnobotanicals. I'm thinking things like mulungu, the non-psychedelic salvia species, calamus, various pedicularis species, picrilima nitida, the lotuses; ie things that are definitely active but not in a psychedelic fashion.

that'd be alright as that shit gets completely buried in other drugs but i definetly don't think plant psychedelic posts should leave psychedelic discussion.

 

[Sentience]

I don't like the idea of creating new substance forums that try to classify the same substances in an incompatible way.

I agree. I dont believe that is what we are doing here.

There's already an appropriate forum to discuss any specific psychoactive herb (or even non-psychoactive herbs, e.g. healthy living for various herbal health/nutrition supplements). Growing techniques and various broader botany topics already have megathreads.

Not really. I think right here is the heart of the misunderstanding.

Where is the appropriate place to discuss non psychedelic plants that also dont belong in healthy living? There is a category of plant based drugs that are both potent and recreational and have nothing to do with healthy living. Herb conversations do happen in Healthy Living but that is not the POINT of many of these natural highs. Therefor they DO NOT belong in healthy living. They also dont belong in PD because many are not true psychedelics or even hallucinogens.

There is always OD, but there isnt even a category for them in OD and that board is heavily oriented towards chemical and opiate drug users, many of whom do not have a healthy respect for plant based drugs/medicines and they get lost in the clutter without going anywhere. OD is already populated enough. I think it would be a good thing to thin some of the traffic on that board.

If we must use OD I would say we should at least get a category for it to validate that it belongs there, as it doesnt belong in healthy living or psychedelic drugs.

Maybe I'm missing the point.

Yes, I think you are.

If I want to discuss the psychedelic properties of a given herb, it's clear currently that this belongs in PD, and this probably facilitates more meaningful discussion of those effects.

If you were paying attention you would know that the forum would be for non-psychedelic botanical medicines. It seems easier that way compared to moving threads from PD to there.

Some plant based drugs are potent enough to get you high and yet are not psychedelic and therefor dont belong in PD. There is OD but its not necessarily the same posse and the discussions might not get the respect they deserve.

However, if you are in favor of merging PD with Ethnobotany so that non healthy living herbal discussions, like how to get high on Sida Cordifolia or exotic mint, I would be ok with merging those two.

I would prefer getting a new board to using PD and Healthy living though, and it seems like most voters agree.

I don't see the topics related to growing, harvesting, etc. of herbs as high traffic enough to warrant more than the existing megathreads, and in terms of psychoactive effects it makes a lot more sense to me to organise focus forums by effect rather than whether the active ingredient is consumed directly from plant material or is purified/synthesised/whatever.

Growing tips is not what I had in mind. I wanted to talk about effects of these drugs and interactions. Did anybody even mention growing tips?

 

[Sentience]

that'd be alright as that shit gets completely buried in other drugs but i definetly don't think plant psychedelic posts should leave psychedelic discussion.

I agree. It would be too difficult logistically. I would support merging ethnobotny into psychedelics, but NOT splitting psychedelics into ethnobotony.

I dont want the threads to get buried or pissed on in OD though.....Not that there are not some great people in OD, but the herbal highs just isnt usually their thing.

I am still against this idea myself- I really don't see how discussing grow techniques has much to do with harm reduction. I do see the place for ethnobotanical forums; just not here.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I was envisioning a place to talk about effects, overdose, interactions and harm reduction. Discussing growing techniques didnt even enter my mind when thinking of this.

I tend to think that PD is a solid forum with great posters and moderators, and I think any attempt to split it up will fail. How can you honestly talk about growing cactii without talking about eating it? Whats the actual point? The information exists out there already.

I agree. I have no intention of breaking up any of the forums that already exist. This would either be adding and merging with psychedelics, or adding a new forum that is for plant drugs that are NOT-Psychedelic.

PD would not be affected by this move.

.I personally think that the forums are already comprehensive enough. If there was a huge amount of botanical threads, then it would make sense, but there just isn't that many, at least for the several years that I modded PD.

I DO see a number of burried botanical threads on this site already. They get buried much of the time, and other times they get disrespected by people who dont respect their potency. Giving it its own place would allow these threads to flourish.

Adding to PD or adding a new forum are both acceptable. Making a new board however will not infringe on the way things are set up now. Psychedelics will still have dominion over ALL psychedelics even natural ones. The only difference is that we will have a place to discuss Kratom and Khat and Mulungu.

On a personal level, I find the idea of "ethno"botany to be somewhat colonial- you know, I have wattle (acaciia) species all around me- ain't nothing ethno bout them. They grew here long before I, and they will contnue long after I. They are trees/plants that grow in a certain region, but I really don't see how the morning glories whch are endemic here warrant any more then harm reduction based advice...

We could call it something different, like (Non-Psychedelic Plant Drugs) or NPPD

 

[solistus]

Do I detect a bit of hostility there in your response? Chill, man

I know you have said psychedelic herbs could just stay here, but that raises even more problems. How do you coherently define the class of drugs you want a new forum for? The reasons for keeping psychedelic herbs here are clear in terms of PD being a vibrant discussion community that already services those topics well, but how does it make sense in the context of this new forum to exclude discussion of those herbs? A clearer way of stating this may be: what specific properties do all the various herbs you want discussed here share that we could use to define the purpose of this forum? Clearly it's not just any herb with psychoactive elements.

In addition to excluding psychedelics, I assume discussion of poppies and naturally derived opioids would stay in OD - it clearly makes more sense to keep those discussions in the same forum as the synthetic and semi-synthetic opioids, right? Cannabis is clearly right out, as it has its own dedicated forum and for good reason, but it's the single most popular psychoactive herb by far. It makes more sense to me conceptually to take the 'leftover' less popular psychoactive herbs and put them in the catch-all forum, other drugs.

As for OD being the wrong forum... Why? There's not a lot of discussion of these herbs there because not a lot of people on BL seem to want to post about kratom etc., not because people try all the time and those mean OD junkies chase 'em away. It's not like those topics are disallowed. If you want to spur discussion of these topics, why not create a new megathread for them there, perhaps with subthreads for the better known herbs like kratom, khat, etc.?

Maybe if you gave some examples of the types of discussions you see emerging due to having a dedicated forum for "non-psychedelic [non-opioid non-cannabis] plant drugs" and why they would be better facilitated by a new forum than a new thread in OD, it would help some of us skeptics out.

 

[egor]

"Non-Psychedelic Plant Drugs"

Has a nice ring to it

 

[swilow]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I was envisioning a place to talk about effects, overdose, interactions and harm reduction. Discussing growing techniques didnt even enter my mind when thinking of this.

Then what? If its not about growing plants, then whats the point? The place to talk about effects is right here in PD. It just makes things more concise.

I agree. I have no intention of breaking up any of the forums that already exist. This would either be adding and merging with psychedelics, or adding a new forum that is for plant drugs that are NOT-Psychedelic.

PD would not be affected by this move.

Well, I think it would. A lot of psychedelic users like botanicals, simply because they are the best source for many psychedelics :D Moving or splitting forums would create clique, which are hard enough to stop in PD itself.

As to merging with PD; isn't that whats already happening?

I DO see a number of burried botanical threads on this site already. They get buried much of the time, and other times they get disrespected by people who dont respect their potency. Giving it its own place would allow these threads to flourish.

What makes you think that? Trust me, I'm interested in plants, but I don't see how having an extra forum for them will do anything positive. All it would do is create more divisions, extra work, and may not even be compatablie with BL's software.

Adding to PD or adding a new forum are both acceptable. Making a new board however will not infringe on the way things are set up now. Psychedelics will still have dominion over ALL psychedelics even natural ones. The only difference is that we will have a place to discuss Kratom and Khat and Mulungu.

Those three plants are not a good reason for an entire forum.

Once again, I am not having a go at you

Ultimately, the mods of this forum can't do much- its up to the admin who would assess the overall demand; and judging by the attempts of people to introduce new forrums, and there subsequent no-go, I would wager that this ain't gonna happen.

 

[Sentience]

Do I detect a bit of hostility there in your response? Chill, man

Its not a big deal to me. I feet that I countered skepticism with an appropriate amount of rebuttal that I would use in any college style debate. Its certainly not a 'personal' issue. Your position on the herb board is not going to make or break my opinion you.

I tend to have a very direct way of speaking, so I may come off as being intense or worked up, but thats just how I type all the time regardless of my mood.

I know you have said psychedelic herbs could just stay here, but that raises even more problems.

Does it? I think it solves a problem. The problem is that there is a class of topics that do not really fit anywhere. They do not fit in PD because they are not psychedelic. They do not fit in in Healthy living because these are psychotropic rather than nutritional supplements for health. They *could* could in OD but its a poor place for them since it doesnt really fit the vibe of that board and the topics get buried and neglected under the sheer volume of opiate and amphetamine related posts.

Is it really that hard to separate psychedelic from non-psychedelic herbs? I think that as long as you group psychedelics and hallucinogens together without trying to split that hair the rest is pretty easy to separate...

I DID offer an alternate proposal....That we expand PD to ALSO talk about non-psychedelic ethnobotanicals like Khat and Kratom and Mulungu. That way everything would remain the same except the Kratom and Mulungu posts would go in PD instead of OD.

If we did create a new board, which the majority is in favor of, I think the difficulties are being blown way out of proportion and it would actually go a lot more smoothly than is being suggested.

The reasons for keeping psychedelic herbs here are clear in terms of PD being a vibrant discussion community that already services those topics well, but how does it make sense in the context of this new forum to exclude discussion of those herbs? A clearer way of stating this may be: what specific properties do all the various herbs you want discussed here share that we could use to define the purpose of this forum? Clearly it's not just any herb with psychoactive elements.

There have been 3 approaches suggested....And lets not pretend like its so complicated that we cant tackle it. All this requires is the initial vote to either make a change or not make a change and a second vote to hammer out the particulars. No big deal.

1. We add a non-psychedelic psychotropic herb board. The only disadvantage to that is that some people migh wonder why psychedelic herbs are excluded....This isnt a huge problem in my opinion. Other forums have both and the site didnt explode. If a moderator thought a plant belonged in PT it would get moved. It isnt THAT much of a problem. (It would cover pretty much every psychotropic herb that doesnt belong in PD, so no need to list every property or action we want to discuss).

2. Splitting up explicitly natural plant based psychedelics from non explicitly plant based psychedelics....This approach is more invasive because it splits up a forum that already exists. Its the most consistent by definition, and it really wouldnt be that confusing since even if a chemical is found in plants it wouldnt go in the botanical forum unless it was *explicitly* plant based. I am not going to push for this option though because I dont want to step on any toes or have to go through a tedious process of splitting up an existing and well functioning forum.

3. We simply expand PD to also allow discussion of botanical drugs like Kratom and Mulungu, since the psychedelic croud tends to be more into them than the opiate/meth crowd and the topics will get the respect and attention they deserve. I rather like this approach because its non-invasive, doesnt step on anyones toes, and is ideologically consistent if we label is as Psychedelics and Ethnobotanicals.

This isnt that confusing though. All we have to do is vote on whether we should add a spcae (doing that now and its looking like a pass) and then doing a second vote for the how.

Do I detect a bit of hostility there in your response? Chill, man

Its not a big deal to me. I feet that I countered skepticism with an appropriate amount of rebuttal that I would use in any college style debate. Its certainly not a 'personal' issue. Your position on the herb board is not going to make or break my opinion you.

I tend to have a very direct way of speaking, so I may come off as being intense or worked up, but thats just how I type all the time regardless of my mood.

I know you have said psychedelic herbs could just stay here, but that raises even more problems.

Does it? I think it solves a problem. The problem is that there is a class of topics that do not really fit anywhere. They do not fit in PD because they are not psychedelic. They do not fit in in Healthy living because these are psychotropic rather than nutritional supplements for health. They *could* could in OD but its a poor place for them since it doesnt really fit the vibe of that board and the topics get buried and neglected under the sheer volume of opiate and amphetamine related posts.

Is it really that hard to separate psychedelic from non-psychedelic herbs? I think that as long as you group psychedelics and hallucinogens together without trying to split that hair the rest is pretty easy to separate...

I DID offer an alternate proposal....That we expand PD to ALSO talk about non-psychedelic ethnobotanicals like Khat and Kratom and Mulungu. That way everything would remain the same except the Kratom and Mulungu posts would go in PD instead of OD.

If we did create a new board, which the majority is in favor of, I think the difficulties are being blown way out of proportion and it would actually go a lot more smoothly than is being suggested.

In addition to excluding psychedelics, I assume discussion of poppies and naturally derived opioids would stay in OD - it clearly makes more sense to keep those discussions in the same forum as the synthetic and semi-synthetic opioids, right? Cannabis is clearly right out, as it has its own dedicated forum and for good reason, but it's the single most popular psychoactive herb by far. It makes more sense to me conceptually to take the 'leftover' less popular psychoactive herbs and put them in the catch-all forum, other drugs.

Correct. Because those plants have specific forums already devoted to them.

As for OD being the wrong forum... Why? There's not a lot of discussion of these herbs there because not a lot of people on BL seem to want to post about kratom etc., not because people try all the time and those mean OD junkies chase 'em away. It's not like those topics are disallowed. If you want to spur discussion of these topics, why not create a new megathread for them there, perhaps with subthreads for the better known herbs like kratom, khat, etc.?

I disagree. I see a lot of posts where people ask questions about these plants and dont get suitable answers. I disagree with your explaination that the reason behind this is lack of interest by bluelighters in general. I think a more likely explanation is that the questions are being directed to the wrong crowd within BL. Its the marijuana and psychedelic enthusiasts who will take the plant drugs more seriously and show more interest.

That is the reason why OD is the wrong place. While it is in fact technically an "Other drug", OD is really focuses on narcotics and amphetamines and benzos and coke and really not too into the natural thing like the PD crowd is. Its not the wrong place for categorical reasons, its the wrong place for sociological reasons. The topics wont get the respect they deserve there and the people most likely to answer those questions wont be as likely to read them.

Maybe if you gave some examples of the types of discussions you see emerging due to having a dedicated forum for "non-psychedelic [non-opioid non-cannabis] plant drugs" and why they would be better facilitated by a new forum than a new thread in OD, it would help some of us skeptics out.

Several have already been proposed. Mulungu. Blue Lotus/Lilly. Ma Huang. There are tons. You might be surprised how many.

 

[Sentience]

Then what? If its not about growing plants, then whats the point? The place to talk about effects is right here in PD. It just makes things more concise.

Yes, there is obviously a misunderstanding.

The fact that we are NOT allowed to post threads about non-psychedelic plant drugs is precisely the problem we are trying to address.

If you feel that the place to talk about non psychedelic plant drugs is right here in PD, perhaps you should change your vote to Yes and then vote for the merging with PD in round 2.

Well, I think it would. A lot of psychedelic users like botanicals, simply because they are the best source for many psychedelics :D Moving or splitting forums would create clique, which are hard enough to stop in PD itself.

As to merging with PD; isn't that whats already happening?

I sure hope something along those lines happens. As of now we are not allowed to post about ethnobotanicals in PD unless they are psychedelic.

It looks like we agree more than I originally thought.

What makes you think that? Trust me, I'm interested in plants, but I don't see how having an extra forum for them will do anything positive. All it would do is create more divisions, extra work, and may not even be compatablie with BL's software.

I am fine with merging with PD instead of dividing into a new forum. I just dont think the botanical drug discussions get the attention or respect they deserve in OD which is mostly dedicated to narcotics, meth/coke, and pharms.

Ultimately, the mods of this forum can't do much- its up to the admin who would assess the overall demand; and judging by the attempts of people to introduce new forrums, and there subsequent no-go, I would wager that this ain't gonna happen.

The majority are in favor and close to half said they would frequent the board themselves.

Merging with PD would probably be the least intrusive approach though I do not agree that separating "Non-Psychedelic Plant Drugs" from OD would be logistically challenging or create any kind of hostile sectarian schism. I think it would be simple and people would continue to get along just great.


But it seems like you are in favor of merging with OD and I am as well.


It looks like less than 1/3 are opposed. We have a 60% majority in favor of. Perhaps we should do a new poll to decide between merging with PD vs creating "Non-Psychedelic Plant Drugs".

Of course its up to the admins and this is not really a democracy, but there are a lot more in favor of than opposed to at this point.

 

[love_sex_desire]

I tried kratom for my first time this weekend. I did MDMA earlier in the night and then consumed 5 grams super indo along with a 3 gram and 2 gram boost a few hours into the experience. As the kratom wore off I did some ketamine and had amazing visuals and thought processes. I felt like I was in complete control of my life, that reality is all within my mind and I felt an amazing sense of ease.

I'd like a place to discuss ethnobotanicals, but no one on PD is responding to my questions in the thread we already have.

The Big and Dandy Natural Psychotropics and Ethnobotanics thread

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=209895

I'm interested in hearing about mulungu, ashwaganda and pedicularis as well as any other ones worth checking out and what their effects may be and how pronounced they are.

Check out the already existing thread! If PD is the right place for it, this thread should be more active.

 

[solistus]

I don't care enough to keep arguing. There's no substantial negative impact to me if this happens, so if you feel this will facilitate more discussion then good luck convincing the admin(s?) to implement it. Merging into PD seems like the best approach if anything is to be done - I certainly see no harm in these herbs being discussed here. That sits much better with me than a new forum - I think the threshold for adequate reason to do that should be set pretty high to avoid confusion and cluttering. I certainly support your underlying goal to foster more exchange of info about infrequently discussed compounds, and I wish you luck in accomplishing that.

 

[Sentience]

I respect the admins and their autonomy over their own website. Its totally up to them if they wish to implement this or not.

Considering the landslide victory of those in favor (60% against 30%) or 2/3 majority after subtracting those who abstained (dont care/ dont know), I am going to create a second round for voting on HOW these changes are to be implemented.

 

[Sentience]

It looks like I either cannot or dont know how to make a poll. I suspect the first one.

Unless anyone has a better idea here are the choices I propose for round 2 of voting.

1. Allow botanical drug discussion in PD, expanding it to Psychedelics and ethnobotanicals.

2. Create a new forum for (Non-Psychedelic plant drugs and Natural Highs- or whatever). Wont impact PD.

3. Create Ethnobotanical forum that allows *explicitly natural* psychedelics and make PD a place for either synthetic or general or not *explicitly natural* psychedelics.


I dont think the third one will pass. I suspect that merging with PD has the most support but I wouldnt rule out a new board limited to non-psychedelic plant drugs either. I think we should include option 3 just because it was mentioned and people shouldnt be discounted before the votes are even in.

Just a proposal. Feel free to second, add to, or give a vote of nay.

 

[swilow]

^Yeah, only mods can create polls.

How about starting a thread in support, perhaps linked to this one? Thats the best spot to get admin-attention...

 

[moonyham]

I think its a good idea. I would go to it and browse it very often if there was one.

 

[solistus]

Given the support here, I think I've changed my tune enough to endorse option 1. I agree that these substances could use more discussion, and I see no objections to expanding PD. Kratom in particular is referenced from time to time by some of the regulars here, and I've never heard anybody complain. If it turns out there's a lot more activity than any of us expect and it actually starts to drown out or dilute the psychedelic discussion, that would seem like a pretty compelling justification for a brand new forum.

 

[egor]

Create a new forum for (Non-Psychedelic plant drugs and Natural Highs- or whatever). Wont impact PD.

I don't like the idea of calling a new subforum "natural highs". That will only encourage discussion of things like "herbal weight loss pills" and any number of purported "natural smoking blends" that will just end up being jaced with JWH, CP, of WIN whatever anyway.

Whole plants and extracts yes.
Pre-made pills or smoking blends no.

These are the things that are threatening the botanical scene already...

 

[Sentience]

Valid points.

It sounds like we are making progress here.

 

[yucatanboy2]

Yeah, definitely do NOT call it "natural highs"...

I'd definitely frequent it. Natural medicine/herbalism has always been an interest of mine, and it overlaps with my interest of intoxicating/psychoactive plants

Edit:
HOWEVER

We'd have to be very careful with the title and definition of what would be included in the forum discussion. For example, think about this question:

Think about all the psychoactive plants out there... would such a forum include all of the plants, or would they be under another forum????
(Clearly cannabis has its own forum already, so it wouldn't be here, right? What about poppies?)
-Morning glory seeds
-HBWR
-Cacti
-Salvia
-Kratom
-Mushrooms (psylocibe and amanita)
-Kratom
-Syrian Rue
-Mimosa hostilis
-Psychotria viridis
-Ephedra Sinica (but not ephedrine or meth, which is made from it)
-Coca (not cocaine, but just the plant)???
-passionflower (what about it as an MAOI for ayahuasca?)
-kava kava (but not extracts?)
-valerian
-nutmeg
-betel nut
-yohimbe
etc.
the list can go on and on.... just go look at erowid's "plants" section.... yikes.

After listing these out and thinking about it, we'd have to have it on NON-combinations/NON-extractions... otherwise cocaine and ayahuasca would be in the forum as well....

Now i'm not sure such a forum would be well-advised.

 

[B9]

^ I'd agree - I just think that if the evangelists go wild from the off they'll just overwhelm many people who will then just "skip" to LSD etc - or some non psychedelic equivalent - which wouldn't exist - oh my what a position I've typed myself into.............

 

[helium-4]

Taking out psychedelic plants and herbs like the above, out of PD would be terrible. MGS, HBWR, cacti, salvia, mushrooms. etc are all ready in everyones minds as being a psychedelics in the realms of any of the synthetic psychedelics.