BIGGEST MYTHS/LIES about ADDICTION?

[negrogesic]

Up to 6x a week? What, may I ask, are you "recovering" from? If you agree with their ideology so much, why to you even go to this site, let alone moderate the psychedelics forum?

Saying our discussion is a "circle jerk" just because it doesn't agree with your beliefs is a petty ad hominem attack, at best. Its obvious that something we've said, or that the number of people in this thread that agree that AA/NA is inherently wrong has struck a nerve with you. As such an active member of AA/NA one would think you'd be above making personal attacks. Im sure you will try to dissect my this post to prove your point. Just another example of aggressive fanatisicm, similar to that ive seen at AA/NA meetings I have attended....

I see these people going to AA/NA 5-6x a week religiously, even despite the fact that they have been sober for 20+ years. If you attend a meeting, one can observe that some people are obviously addicted and getting off on whatever good feelings they get out of going to the meetings, and are merely substituting addictions. For some these meetings are their entire lives.

I dont see why they feel the need to reopen old wounds every day by standing up and saying "I am an addict," constantly labeling themselves. Why cant an addict, who finally becomes sober, just try to leave their past addiction behind them, or even use sparingly, but still personally acknowledge that there are particularly susceptible to addiction, and thus must be extremely cautious when using mind altering substances.

But I dont understand the oxymoron of AA/NA members being heavy smokers, yet treat marijuana as a great taboo. Cigarettes are exponentially more addictive and toxic than marijuana, but they are allowed. Even methadone is less toxic than cigarettes, but they dont consider methadone maintenance to be legitamite solution to severe addiction. So your sober when you smoke tobacco, but "wacky tobaccy" is considered to be "using". This does not make sense. And incorporating god, religion, faith, metaphysics or whatever you want to call it, is not necessary in treating addiction, but they use it in AA/NA almost as a tool to instill guilt, fear etc. Some theology specialists even consider AA/NA to have a cult like status. I do think it can definitely brainwash people, especially considering that the people who first attend this meetings are at their MOST vulnerable state, being in the middle of addiction, withdrawal or recently quit, so their mind is confused and impressionable, and the AA/NA ideology can become imprinted upon their way of thought by other members, who can be somewhat aggressive in upholding the AA/NA ideology (which ive seen first hand at meetings). Keep in mind AA is a catholic invention, and though they dont force catholicism upon you, it is without doubt an underlying factor. There are many inpatient clinics who use the 12 step method, and ive seen people get out of there, and they seem like zombies, or victims of old-style frontal lobe high voltage electro-shock therapy.....

I am not saying that AA/NA was formulated to be a subversive, malevolent tool to brainwash people, I do think they did have good intentions, but nevertheless I believe these meetings are breeding grounds for drug misinformation/myths (which by the way, is the topic of this thread), and I definitely think their way of treating drug addiction is quite flawed, at the very the least. I will leave it at that......

 

[OCfiend]

And according to Chris in another thread we were all alcoholics because we only drink to get drunk but even if you only get drunk twice a month your still an alcoholic. I am not hear to bash anyone, including you chris, but i think that NA/AA meetings are bullshit. So if you want to quit drugs and join the meeting you need religion? I don't need christ to quit drugs, I could quit if I felt the need to. I think if I work 4 days a week, i should have the right to smoke a joint or have a few drinks. Who the fuck are you to call anyone a drug addict or alcoholic if they indulge in such substances and keep it in moderation. And for opiate addicts, methadone is maintanence. It is extremely hard to get over such withdrawls and the only way I would even consider doing so is to ween off like I did with my minor heroin/oxycodone addiction a few months back.

 

[OCfiend]

And by the way Chris, seems how that this is a drug forum, wouldn't this be tempting you to relapse. If i was attending AA/NA and I was going to rub my sobriety in other peoples faces, I would go to an NA/AA forum which promotes shit like that, not a forum that is full of drug users like myself.

 

[ChrisC]

Well thanks for not bashing me, OC, considering YOU'RE the one who took the questionaire which said you were an alcoholic,.. I didn't tell you anything. Just so you know, you don't necessarily have to drink every day to be an alkie.. If you'd read the other posts in that thread you'd know that alcoholism is a chronic illness, with a slow, insiduous onset, that can occur at any age, and that how much and when you consume has no relevance.
Read the questions again and tell me honestly there's no problem if you answer yes to any 3 questions...
Wow!.. people get really defensive over this. It doesn't really make a whole lot of difference to me what's said, and i'm not discounting that some of us have had bad experiences with 12 step programs, but if you can show me a better proven method of overcoming the obsession with drugs and alcohol, I'd like to hear about it.
BTW OC, don't you worry about me, and what i do, and why.. You worry about yourself.. But I'll tell you this, there's alot of people on this site who want to get away from drugs/booze, and i'll never tell them to go to meetings, but i don't mind saying that it's been the only thing to work for me. I speak about my own experiences, no one elses.

 

[Pander Bear]

Up to 6x a week? What, may I ask, are you "recovering" from? If you agree with their ideology so much, why to you even go to this site, let alone moderate the psychedelics forum?

I'm recovering from ongoing personality problems that continue to cause me problems: low self esteem, fear, anger, et cetera. I continue to moderate a drug discussion forum because I still have an interest in harm reduction. I still believe, despite becoming addicted myself, that there are plenty of people who can use drugs without consequences, if they use them in moderation and with caution. It seemed like a huge waste to walk away from something I enjoyed and am good at.

Saying our discussion is a "circle jerk" just because it doesn't agree with your beliefs is a petty ad hominem attack, at best. Its obvious that something we've said, or that the number of people in this thread that agree that AA/NA is inherently wrong has struck a nerve with you. As such an active member of AA/NA one would think you'd be above making personal attacks. Im sure you will try to dissect my this post to prove your point. Just another example of aggressive fanatisicm, similar to that ive seen at AA/NA meetings I have attended....

Discounting any response I make as a dogmatic assault that isn't in line which what I claim top be an exponent of is a rather obvious way to make your argument airtight. You're welcome to just not read it.

I see these people going to AA/NA 5-6x a week religiously, even despite the fact that they have been sober for 20+ years. If you go they are obviously addicted and getting off on whatever good feelings they get out of going to the meetings, and are merely substituting addictions. I dont see why they feel the to reopen old wounds every day by standing up and saying "I am an addict," constantly labeling themselves. Why cant an addict, who finally becomes sober, just try to leave their past addiction behind them, or even use sparingly, but still personally acknowledging that there are particularly susceptible to addiction, and thus must be extremely cautious when using mind altering substance.

People who still go to meetings after 20 years are in one of two camps. Either their lives fall apart because they haven't bothered to learn how to remind themselves of the lessons they've learned, or they're deeply involved in the hierarchy of service positions in NA. I don't see myself doing either of those things right now. I'm planning on drastically cutting back and taking my life in another direction once the man no longer has any interest in my day to day life. Nowhere in the literature does it say (to my knowledge), that you must continue going to meetings for the rest of your life. Its just an easy, social way to keep the disease at bay.

Calling ones' self an addict doesn't have much to do with old wounds at all. Its just acceptance of one of the primary tenants of the program, the disease model of addiction. They claim, and thats what it is, a claim, that addiction is progressive, incurable, but totally treatable. Plenty of people, the people whom I respect the most, actually, take issue with that. They told me that I had finished "recovering" from my drug use a while ago, and I admitted that I agreed with them. We still come to meetings because the good deed of helping somebody who really wants to get clean. That, and I've made the best friendships I've ever had in the program, so I go back for the people.

Plenty of addicts do leave the program, and lead super-fantastic lives. They can do it because they were smart enough to get some other things going on in their lives outside of meetings. I don't really see what the problem with substituting addictions is, whether its getting back into school and becoming a doctor, or going to meetings everyday. Both of them a a lot better than sucking cock for money and mainlining street dope. Both are better than a physical dependance. Thats my qualm with MMTs and the like. They're fine for people who want them, but I'd never want to do that. I'm also quite positive that there are people who use drugs without nasty consequences after a stint in a 12 steps program. They probably aren't too numerous though. NA has a way of taking the fun out of getting high (so I've heard).

But I dont understand the oxymoron of AA/NA members being heavy smokers, but treat marijuana as very taboo. Cigarettes are exponentially more addictive and toxic than marijuana, but they are allowed. So tobacco is find, but "wacky tobaccy" is prohibitive. This does not make sense. And incorporating god, religion, faith, metaphysics or whatever you want to call it, is not necessary in treating addiction, but they use it in AA/NA almost as a tool to instill guilt etc. Some theology specialists even consider AA/NA to have a cult like status. I do think it can definitely brainwash people, especially considering that the people who first attend this meetings are at their MOST vulnerable state, being in the middle of addiction, withdrawal or recently quit, so their mind is confused and impressionable, and the AA/NA ideology can become imprinted upon their way of thought by other members, who can be somewhat aggressive in upholding the AA/NA ideology (which ive seen first hand at meetings). Keep in mind AA is a catholic invention, and though they dont force catholicism upon you, it is without doubt an underlying factor.

I'd say that NA/AA's acceptance of tobacco is just a product of the times it was created in. Give it 50 more years, and they'll probably incorporate it into their ideology. There are, in the mean time, people who want to be free of their tobacco addictions who either apply the 12 steps to their nicotine problem, or go to nicotine anonymous (they practice smobriety, =)). There is one other reason tobacco is acceptable. Most people don't get high off tobacco. If people were outside meetings getting kicks off of some new kind of cigarette, it would be out the door instantly. However, people aren't getting kicks from it, so its permissable. Just as taking antidepressants, proscribes doses of benzos, or methadone isn't strictly prohibited. Generally, if you are in a room of nice people, they'll suggest that you wean yourself off, and try being completely drug free, but for the most part, that;ll respect your decision.

As for the god faith thing, I think you're generalizing a lot of stuff from minimal encounters with the program. Ya, AA says the lords prayer (which to me is pretty damn weird), but NA is significantly less spiritual. Your higher power can be just about anything. Most people who don't want to involve God in their worldviews just make it "the group" or "my friends". No further commitment is necessary.
I was plenty guilty before I came into it all. It was actually a big relief when people told me that, despite the shitty choices I had made, that my addiction wasn't my fault. They did say, however, that my recovery was my responsibility. This has actually been the most empowering thing in my life. I've taken responsibility for my past and current fuck-ups. I don't really have anything left to be guilty about. Maybe you could elaborate on that.
AA isn't really "catholic" by the way. I don't know where you heard this. The oxford school, the precursor to AA, was a group of hard-line agnostics. NA and AA, and I suppose any other 12 steps group, are designed to fit in with any culture. Asian governments were concerned that NA and AA were going to be some kind of insidious western influence that would inspire people to leave their native faiths, but they were pleased to find the texts to be vauge and at times, somewhat buddhist. I'd challenge you (being from a half catholic family) to explain what evidence you have to back that claim up, because I certainly can't find it anywhere.

Ya, theres consensual brainwashing going on in any 12 steps program. That sounds sort of creepy, and it was my top concern when I started going. I was freaked out about becoming someone who was dull, boring, and republican. Somebody else told me he was glad he got brainwashed, because he had a dirty mind. Thats been my experience too. Turns out, the only parts of my brain that changed were the parts that kept calling me a chronic fuck-up who nobody would ever like. People determine their own level of involvement, and their own form of participation in AA/NA: thats why I don't think any serious outsider could ever call it a cult. There is no central figure, there is a system at every level for autonomy and dissent, and you're free to go at any time. Its less of a cult than any mainstream faith, or any secular institution. So unless you're willing to paint in such broad strokes as to call America or Islam a cult, I don't think you can.

I am not saying that AA/NA was formulated to be a subversive, malevolent tool to brainwash people, I do think they did have good intentions, but nevertheless I believe these meetings are breeding grounds for drug misinformation/myths (which is the topic of this thread), and I definitely think their way of treating drug addiction is quite flawed, at the very the least.

I'd say the only "myth" perpetuated in NA is that one is too many and 1000 never enough. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule. But, however, for NA's purposes, which include self-perpetuation, there must exist rules that create common ground so people can trust eachother. If you aren't willing to follow the abstinence rule, you aren't welcome. Thats ok, because nobody is forcing you to go who isn't also imposing a zero-tolerance policy as well.

I'll lodge my complaints here so I don't come off so one-sided:

• There are plenty of fucked up sober people who use AA/NA as a power trip.
• The conspicuous consumption of tobacco and coffee appears to be in conflict with their message
• There is a grass-roots mistrust of medicine and psychology, though at higher levels of policy, it does not exist.

 

[OCfiend]

Well thanks for not bashing me, OC, considering YOU'RE the one who took the questionaire which said you were an alcoholic,.. I didn't tell you anything. Just so you know, you don't necessarily have to drink every day to be an alkie.. If you'd read the other posts in that thread you'd know that alcoholism is a chronic illness, with a slow, insiduous onset, that can occur at any age, and that how much and when you consume has no relevance.
Read the questions again and tell me honestly there's no problem if you answer yes to any 3 questions...
Wow!.. people get really defensive over this. It doesn't really make a whole lot of difference to me what's said, and i'm not discounting that some of us have had bad experiences with 12 step programs, but if you can show me a better proven method of overcoming the obsession with drugs and alcohol, I'd like to hear about it.
BTW OC, don't you worry about me, and what i do, and why.. You worry about yourself.. But I'll tell you this, there's alot of people on this site who want to get away from drugs/booze, and i'll never tell them to go to meetings, but i don't mind saying that it's been the only thing to work for me. I speak about my own experiences, no one elses.

Of course that test called me an alcoholic. Anyone in this entire website who even enjoys alcohol in the slightest bit would probably fail... I answered yes to "is drinking making your home life unhappy" and "do you drink alone." Alcohol HAS made my homelife unhappy because when I was younger and my mom knew I drank she was pissed off so that made me unhappy. And think of it this way, when any of u guys smoke weed, do you smoke alone? I drink usually at parties and shit but I have gotten drunk by myself, usually when I have nothing else to get fucked up on, or want to increase my opiate buzz. I'm sure I'm a drug addict in your eyes, chirs, but I am not a fucking alcoholic. I don't even get drunk 4 times a month. And that's great and all that your a member of the AA but I am entitled to my own opinion and it is bullshit IMO. An alcoholic is someone who cannot control their usage of alcohol or according to AA it is someone who is "powerless over their addiction."

Now I am not powerless over my alcohol intake and currently not even over my drug intake because I've got 80 mgs worth of methadone in my room right now, waiting for friday. You are fucking brainwashed by your NA/AA bullshit because YOU want an excuse for your bad dicision making. Take responsibility for the fact that it's your fault you became a drug addict and you weren't any more suspeptibul than anyone else. That's what I believe. My grandparents were alcoholics so i guess i have more of an abuse potential than others but there are steps I can take to prevent that from happening. I used to be addicted physically to opiates for about 3 months. That is not a long time, but it was long enough to be in pain without them.

And now I'm off the dope, using MAYBE twice a week. I am not powerless over my addiction. I can control my usage. Negrogesic is on 140 mgs methadone a day, he's obvious physically dependent. He said he believe once he is off methadone treatment he will be able to shoot heroin once or twice a week and leave it at that. It is possible.

 

[OCfiend]

here's the link guys. Take this test and see how many of you pass and be honest. I doubt many will. and if you don't like drinking, replace the word with drug addict instead of alcoholic or drug instead of alcohol.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/alcoholics-anonymous-20-questions.htm

I'm sure a lot of E-tards will fail this and they only roll once a month. They'll say yes to "using drugs in social situations to loosen up and socialize" i guarantee it.

 

[tenderjuice]

There is a LOT of ignorance out there. Generational ignorance: for example:

My mother (to me): "Have you ever tried drugs?"

Me: (Playing it right down but trying to introduce honesty into the family) "Yes I have smoked a joint before".

My mother: (In astonishment and anger) ... "DRUGS! DRUGS! How could you?" (While holding a glass of brandy in one hand and a cigarette in the other).

Classic ignorance.

 

[neverfree neverbound]

BTW: I'd like to see a sampling of scholarly studies published in prestigious refereed journals as to the effectiveness of 12-Step programs, such as AA/NA: ¿can anyone provide a representative, current bibliography???....

 

[ayjay]

This thread still rocks I can't believe how many posts have come in since yesterday.

Atlas - I apologise again; I am not being terribly clear here. I am not a conspiracy theorist who thinks 12 steppers are some savage cabal intent on world domination. What I am talking about is the conceptual model used to explain repetitive and problematic substance use, that is prevalent in the wider community. I would say that this model is mainly informed by 12 step theory, but not in an intentional way - think of it more as the evolution of ideas (or memes) within our culture. Ideas gain popularity because of their ability to replicate within their hosts - our minds. It is possible for an idea to be a successful replicator, without being of benefit to the hosts - either individually or collectively (take racism for example). Because of the slipperiness of language, it is hard for me to simply describe the idea that I am talking about here. I have called it "the 12 step model of addiction", but of course it is more than that. Components of this idea inform such statements as "once a junkie...", and "in denial", and "in recovery". I claim that these statements are not strictly true; however belief in this model can make them true (self-fulfilling prophecy - go directly to NA). I further claim that belief in this model can make some people worse off than they otherwise would be.

I haven't read a single thing here to suggest otherwise

 

[Pander Bear]

BTW: I'd like to see a sampling of scholarly studies published in prestigious refereed journals as to the effectiveness of 12-Step programs, such as AA/NA: ¿can anyone provide a representative, current bibliography???....

I don't know how such a thing would be possible. Member lists in 12 steps organizations are just first names and last initials. When people quit, whether or not they relapse, they aren't removed (at least around here) unless they ask to be removed. Moreover, since you're never really "done" in a 12 steps program, what would be an effective way to gauge efficacy? I'd say that it works as long as you're willing to do it. The bar is set pretty low in NA anyway. All they promise is that an addict can not use drugs today if they do what they're asked to do. I don't think any drug addiction program, be it something like smart recovery, a MMT, NA, or narconon should be judged on anything other than the self-reported quality of life of the addict. With any program, staying sober comes down to a matter of choice, and what happens between a persons ears is up to them, and them alone. If there was a treatment option that had a success rate much higher than the norm, I'd venture to guess that it involved some radical brainwashing, the likes of which is unheard of in any of the programs I mentioned (except of course, narconon, which still has a miserably high turnover, in addition to costing an arm and a leg).

ayjay:

Trust me, I'm no memoid. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. This is an approach that is working right now for plenty of people. Its free, and its easily available. It doesn't involve people who aren't addicts/alcoholics/whatever. I'll reiterate that any problem you havewith the world outside of a meeting is something that you need to act personally towards if you want to see any change. I really doubt the memes you're talking about have as much impact in the treatment field as you think they do. Denial, the disease concept, and spirituality all have had roles in treating substance abuse prior to the oxford school. I can't say much more than if you want real alternatives at a policy and institutional level, become an advocate for them. Write your elected leaders, talk with activists, and get involved.

And how by the way, do people end up worse off for having been refferred to an AA or NA meeting? Thats not a jab, I'd like to hear some honest scenarios where a detrimental active addiction is worse than what NA does.

 

[ebola?]

what happens when we take belief in memetics itself as a meme?
...
It has been a couple years, but as I recall, there was a study that suggested that 12-step programs and cognitive behavioral therapy have similar levels of success in the general population of addicts (as are defined by DSM-IV-TR criteria). More interestingly, they found that 12-step programs work best for religious people whereas CBT works better for irreligious people and those with higher scores on abstract reasoning measures.

ebola

 

[negrogesic]

Im sure you will try to dissect my this post to prove your point.

I was right wasnt I?

But anyways, you made some good points, and i understand your position, and if AA/NA works for you, then you are lucky. The only thing i was bothered by was calling our discussion a "circle jerk", which seemed disrespectfull. You have a right to your opinion and i respect it, so I figured our opinions were likewise worthy of respect.....

And calling AA a catholic invention, I guess this is a bit of a misnomer, because the first AA meetings were held in some guys apartment, not a church, so i admit, i actually contributed to a myth, which i apologize for......

So no hard feelings anyone, we can agree to disagree...

 

[rand420]

I have this serious benzo addiction going on now, and it makes my methadone/heroin/oxycontin withdrawals seem easy in comparison (not that either are at all). But ive never had grand mal seziures with opioid withdrawal like i have been experiencing from benzos as of late. I dont even want to get into all the myths about addiction because there are just so many. AA/NA and similar 12 step programs propogate many myths, like addiction is forever.

I agree with you 100% on that, I've been thru serious oxy withdrawals, and while they were quite painful, they were nothing compared to when I decided to cut down on my 6 mg a day clonazepam habit. A few days after I quit, I literally felt I was going psychotic, couldn't sleep at all, and was afraid to leave my apartment for a week. The reason I was prescribed clonazepam in the first place was for social phobia, but it never got THIS bad.

moral of story: if you want to quit benzos, tapering very slowly is the only way to go

 

[HobbyIsBowling]

moral of story: if you want to quit benzos, tapering very slowly is the only way to go

Amen. Even with tapering, I didn't leave my apartment for 10 days when getting off xanax.

Seems as if many people now know about "Benzo's little secret". As relaxed you feel during your addiction, the buzz is not going to be worth it on the way out. This has been my experience with xanax specifically, supposedly the worst of the bunch as far as addiction goes because of it's short half life(around 11 hours).

Don't get started with this shit. If you're going to take it, try not to take it two days in a row, and do NOT take it to go to sleep regularly. That's how all that shit started with me. One month you need .5mg. The next you need .75mg, the next 1mg..... That's how it starts.

Sorry, I got off on a little bit of an anti-benzo rant here, I'm done now

 

[Tongue]

lets try to STAY on TOPIC folks

umm, as far as Na/AA goes, SIEGFRIED and ROY have a nice documentary coming out on HBO in a month or so detailing the negatives and few positives of such groups/programs..it will be worth a watch for everyone, especially the pro-AA peeps..

personally, i dont really see what u guys are so GUNG HO about it when it comes to AA meetings??especially u folks that go 6-7 times a week, and live thru it like religion..i mean, geetting and STAYING off drugs is about learning and creating new HOBBIES..sports, working out, sailing whatever are all healthy choices...what is learned that is so helpful in staying clean for u guys??i mean, besides the social interaction(ya must be rather lonely id have to guess) what is there to learn especially after having been going to meetings for years??

as for "SPONSORS" go, wtf, what are they??i suppose u call them up when u think of using??whatever works for ya, but thats out there...

are there any other popular misonceptions out there about addiction BESIDES the effectiveness/brainwashing practice of NA/AA??lets hear some other things..

 

[ayjay]

^ I guess I've been trying to address that - but by linking general concepts to NA concepts, I've helped perpetuate the 12step circle jerk

Atlas - I am glad that you pointed out that disease concept etc predate AA. As I've said before, I'm certainly not trying to pin the problems with common perceptions of repetitive behaviour on 12 steppers. I actually think that there are plenty of good aspects to AA/NA - self help concept, peer support, mentoring etc. I guess I'd be happier with groups running in the same way, but with a harm reduction perspective. For example, instead of talking about how long since you last used, talk about how long since you started paying your rent on time. I think that the primacy given to substance use (or lack thereof - abstinence) is a red herring when looking at lifestyle change - and this is not restricted to AA/NA.

Now that we've clarified that this concept predates AA/NA, I'm pretty unhappy with the disease model: "Addiction is a disease". Frankly this is not helpful in some cases. Finding out that you have a chronic relapsing disease, for which there is no cure, does not always make it easier to get on with your life. My observation would be that people outwardly reject this idea because it is disempowering, but never replace it with anything more useful. This leads to the rock bottom scenario - finally, when everything is gone to shit, all the people who told you you were in denial can say "I told you so", as you limp off to treatment. To me, this is like watching someone climb a cliff, and telling them they are going to fall, instead of teaching them to climb. The disease model doesn't really offer people help until they are badly wounded, and given that 'prevention is better than cure', can't we do something more effective to reduce drug related harm?

 

[Pander Bear]

ok: I'll see what can be effectively refuted, and what just must be taken of left.

For example, instead of talking about how long since you last used, talk about how long since you started paying your rent on time. I think that the primacy given to substance use (or lack thereof - abstinence) is a red herring when looking at lifestyle change - and this is not restricted to AA/NA.

I can come up with 2 reasons why this can't, or maybe just wont, happen. First, if NA (lets leave AA aside, since I'm not well versed in their culture) advocated moderation in drug use rather than abstinence, meetings would quickly become regarded by law enforcement as open air drug markets. People would start buying and selling, and swapping phone numbers for drugs. I doubt churches or public parks would allow groups to meet there who claim that drug use, or alcohol use for that matter, is perfectly fine. The other reason, I think, falls into the same category as the "we don't mention specific drugs" rule. I'd imagine that if people use as much or as little of whatever they liked, others would be turned off by it. Its hard enough for an ex heroin user to relate to the problems or somebody else, once they find out they have a "problem" with pot. The rooms would balkanize, and people's personal hang-ups would keep them from learning from eachothers' experiences.

"Addiction is a disease". Frankly this is not helpful in some cases. Finding out that you have a chronic relapsing disease, for which there is no cure, does not always make it easier to get on with your life. My observation would be that people outwardly reject this idea because it is disempowering, but never replace it with anything more useful.

I don't know about that. I sis disempowering to be diagnosed with cancer or diabetes? I don't think it does. In my opinion, being told you have something that isn't your fault, but is your responsibility to treat (and it is treatable), is pretty damn empowering. certainly moreso than being told you're a bad person, or you just aren't trying hard enough to kick your habit. That is the prevailing attitude about drug addicts in the world today, not the disease model of addiction. Even if it were disempowering (which I must disagree with on a personal level as well), whether you reject it or not, and whether you replace it with something more meaningful (which is perfectly reasonable, all experience is subjective), is entirely on you. The burden to change is, and always will be on the individual. What is the alternative, anyway? Tell somebody that there isn't any such thing as a psychological addiction? Let them detox, give them minimal treatment, and let them try it again. Those places already exist, they're called rehab clinics. Just try cleaning up in one when you've got crap insurance.

Tounge:

especially u folks that go 6-7 times a week, and live thru it like religion..i mean, geetting and STAYING off drugs is about learning and creating new HOBBIES..sports, working out, sailing whatever are all healthy choices...what is learned that is so helpful in staying clean for u guys??i mean, besides the social interaction(ya must be rather lonely id have to guess) what is there to learn especially after having been going to meetings for years??

So by your logic, If I went sailing 6 or 7 times a week, it would be ok, but since I go to meetings, I've got some kind of crutch. They're both filling a void, aren't they. That, ultimately, is what stopping the addiction is about, isn't it?

What is there to gain from it? Well, aside from going to a place full of people like me... (which of course makes me lonely, never mind the 50,000 people with bluelight accounts, they're all shut-ins with no other means of making friends; they all can't even stand eachother, its so lame that they have to talk to eachother just because they all like drugs). Meetings keep my head straight. They remind me of what is important, and where to place my priorities. I know my closest friends made in NA much better than my friends from outside the rooms, despite the fact that I've known the latter group for years and years longer, and damn better than I know the people I used to get high with. Meetings are places where you're free to talk about your personal ups and downs with the knowledge that everybody will listen and offer advice based on personal experience. I don't know of any hobby that can fill that order. Which is not to say that I don't recommend hobbies. Of course I do. You can get burned out on AA/NA just like you can on anything else.

as for "SPONSORS" go, wtf, what are they??i suppose u call them up when u think of using??whatever works for ya, but thats out there...

Well, ya, I suppose you can call them up when you feel like getting high. You can do that with anybody else you meet, though. Sponsors are there to help you work yourself through the twelve steps, which of course, you should want to do, since you're in a 12 steps program . Being a sponsor is pretty important for people who have been around a while too. Sponsoring somebody reminds you that people were there for you when you were getting clean, and that you ought to repay the favor. It also tends to redouble a sponsor's efforts in their own program, where they tend to stagnate once the immediate danger of getting high and its consequences go away.

 

[PhorIndicator]

Atlas, I agree with pretty much everything you have said. I have been to countless AA/NA meetings in my life. The problem they presented to me was that they made me continually focus on my addiction. In essence, My whole life was centered around "sobriety". And having that as the predominant issue in my life obviously caused me to think about it all the time.

But my point is, when i think about "staying sober", so to speak, I inevitably think of getting "fucked-up" in the same thought, or at least the thought before or after it. They are so inter-woven because they are essentially two sides of the same coin.

And continually harping on this inevitably makes me want to get fucked up. I'm not sure if I have accurately articulated the point I am trying to make, and I am by no means disagreeing with anything you have said or saying that AA/NA does not work.

I am saying though, that this was one of the major obstacles I encountered while working a recovery via the AA/NA route and was, in my opinion, ultimately one of the reasons I relapsed.

Your thoughts?

 

[ChrisC]

^^ there's ways of dealing with drug cravings and daydreams. I've learned a couple, some of them at meetings.
Dwelling on sobriety all day long isn't what I'd call well-balanced, but i think its important to put sobriety first in order to get healthy.