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BIGGEST MYTHS/LIES about ADDICTION?

I can't remember who said this or where I read it this. I believe it was a speaker at some AA meeting at Venice Beach, that sounds correct. Anyways, the guy talked about how much weed he smoked, and how nowadays it's sooooo potent. He then said something that I had to keep myself from laughing at: "Man, the weed you can get today is so strong, and addictive. I mean, FORGET heroin." (I should point out that I later found out that he'd never ACTUALLY used heroin)

EXCUSE me??? I've mainlined dope before, and I've never had any fucking marijuana that could compare. As far as addictiveness, I myself have never been through serious heroin withdrawls, only slight ones after goin' for a week, but if the ones I had were bad, some real wds must be hell. And after smoking weed for a month straight, I could stop, go to sleep, and not notice anything the next day, or ever.

Honestly, don't say stupid shit like that. You just end up embarassing yourself.

I hate when people who are addicted to drugs or anything say that they aren't addicted. I mean why lie about it?

A lot of those people aren't lying to you, they really believe what they say. Denial often comes along with addiction. People don't want to believe that THEY could be an addict, some people take a while to accept it.
 
^^^Yea i have heard those older people saying how "potent" our marijuana is now, because of all the "chemicals" we put on it, and that it is laced etc. True, it is more potent now and not full of seeds (aside from that mexican shit), because we are smart enough to know how to grow marijuana correctly (although their generation did contribute to the increase in technology). These are the same people who say that their best friend used to make lsd in their bathtub, and cocaine makes you jump off buildings etc. This is just another reason i dont like going to NA meetings. One of the meetings i attended, some young man got up and said "hi my name is mike and I am an addict". Turns out the reason he was there was because he used to smoke marijuana on the weekends. Jesus christ.

But notice how during the breaks everyone goes outside and smokes cigarettes, which are infinitately more toxic than any opiate/opioid. If i ever go again (although unlikely) I should bring a fat joint with me and smoke it when they go outside to smoke their cigarettes, and see their reaction. I bet they would go scramble for their cellphones to call the police, or do something o that nature.
 
Psychonaut777 said:
There are actually a bunch of studies that demonstrate how long term use of alcohol and cocaine stimulate the dopamine receptors in the brain. Overtime the brain grows to desire the effects. I'm not sure how far they've gotten with this research but there was an interesting development I read somewhere that cocaine addicts experienced an especially strong urge to use when under the influence of alcohol - something to do with the dopamine receptors triggering a response for cocaine. Thus, they have found that the same drugs that inhibit alcohol cravings work for cocain addicts as well.

.

I can vouch for the alochol cocaine thing. When i get drunk it seems to always lead up to me wanting cocaine. I wonder if i can find more information on this.
 
Psychonaut777 said:
There are actually a bunch of studies that demonstrate how long term use of alcohol and cocaine stimulate the dopamine receptors in the brain. Overtime the brain grows to desire the effects. I'm not sure how far they've gotten with this research but there was an interesting development I read somewhere that cocaine addicts experienced an especially strong urge to use when under the influence of alcohol - something to do with the dopamine receptors triggering a response for cocaine. Thus, they have found that the same drugs that inhibit alcohol cravings work for cocain addicts as well.

.

I can vouch for the alochol cocaine thing. When i get drunk it seems to always lead up to me wanting cocaine. I wonder if i can find more information on this.
 
Addiction

Two things: first off, I too can vouch for the alcohol/cocaine thing. I swear, every time i get drunk now I start like majorly fucking fiending for some coke and i end up going to get some, then the next morning i'm like "what the fuck" how did this happen again. It sucks, because anyone who drinks and does cocaine or used to knows how awesome they go together. But now sometimes I worry i'll never be able to drink normally again because always around drink number 5-6 i start fiending and end up going to buy some blow. It sort of sucks i guess.

Secondly, my view on the whole AA?NA 12 step thing is this: I have been to countless AA/NA meeting, way too many in fact. Anyways, I do think that the meetings are overall a good thing, I mean, they have a good goal, and that's to stay sober for one day at a time. I think they have some good ideals and advice on how to live life. However, for me personally, it didn't work, because everytime I'd go in a fucking meeting all they'd talk about was drugs/sobriety, and all it did was just make me think of drugs and alcohol that much more and how great it used to be. The problem with AA is that it makes you constantly continue to think about drugs and alcohol. I have had alot more success not using without them because i simply stop thinking about sobriety/drugs/alcohol and focus on other shit in my life.

The last thing i want to say i dislike about AA is that they like put an "addict/alcoholic" label on you and like TELL you how you'll act. That pisses me off and i think it does alot more damage than good because people start hearing that like they are an addict and this is how they are going to act no matter what and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them, they actually start to believe it. And then they start to believe it, it's almost like they're brain washed. That's what happened to me.
 
Definately brainwashes people.....

Some inpatient rehabs brainwash people as well. Sometimes you cannot even recognize them, if you talk to them. This is not a good way to treat addiction, we arent "wrong" for being addicts, and we dont need to hark on being one by going to meetings 3 times a week. It becomes some of these peoples lives......
 
Yeah thats what happened to me. I was prematurely sent to an inpatient rehab because my parents freaked out when they found out i had done coke. But i wasn't an addict. But then i got to this rehab and the fuckers there told me i'd never leave unless i admitted i was an addict, and they just drilled all this bullshit into me about how i would act a certain way and why i would act a certain way.

And eventually i began to believe it (at least sub consciously) Then after i got out i started acting like a "addict" just because i felt i was supposed to or some shit. It was a terrible experience, changed my life for the worst, and i'll never be the same because of it.
 
I too can vouch for the alcohol/cocaine compulsion because I have definately been there; however, I find that I have an alcohol/(anything) compulsion.

As far as drugs go, and I have done them all, alcohol is by far the most insidious. I have experienced opiate withdrawal, and would not wish it on my worst enemy, and I have fiended for rocks so bad that I was searching the rug for and smoking any minute trace of white residue I could find, but I cannot imagine the DT's that come with alcohol. I watched as my mother poured vodka down my father's throat while he was kicking booze, so that he wouldn't die. That's some shit. I avoid alcohol as much as possible at this pont in my life; however, unlike any other drug, it is actually pushed by almost everyone I come in to contact with....anyway.

Saying all of this, I cannot, and will not buy in to the dogma of AA/NA that once you have begun an addiction, you cannot end it and return to baseline. This just not make any sense, addiction is a physiological reaction to an internal stimulus. You are not born with painfully unsatisfied opiod receptors in your brain...you develop them by ingesting opiates.

Furthermore, you are not a mental defective because you did something that felt good, and continued to do it because it continued to feel good. Nor are you defective due to the fact that your brain got used to a certain chemical(to your surprise) and now you are sick because you do not have it.

We are still treated as though we are less than human by society and by AA/NA. Either admit that you are defective, or go to jail forever...your choice. I just don't accept that these are the only options, but hwat do I know, I am just a JUNKIE...

Thanks Bluelight, this is a great site, and I'm glad I found it(excese me...I'm an olde-head)

Zinc
 
Welcome...

>"Saying all of this, I cannot, and will not buy in to the dogma of AA/NA that once you have begun an addiction, you cannot end it and return to baseline."<

12-Step annoys me, but I don't see how, say, an opioid addict can ever return to baseline (unless you define "baseline" in some other way). To me, a True "return to baseline" would mean abstaining until my tolerance was back to zero (I'm there now) AND not being addicted--just like when I first began taking opioids (my "baseline"). I simply can't imagine such a "return" to a state in which I'm not on the edge of addictive behavior if I started using the same problem drug...

>"This just not make any sense, addiction is a physiological reaction to an internal stimulus. You are not born with painfully unsatisfied opiod receptors in your brain...you develop them by ingesting opiates."<

But, once the train gets a rollin'... ¿do you Truly Believe that you can, in essence, start afresh???...
 
some awesome input in here, i'll try and read it all over a bit more tomorrow ...

the thing that comes to mind for me right now, is that there are different types of addictions ... and I don't just mean size and scope or the drugs involved, but also every contributing factor ... we're all human after all, and as such, you can never hope to apply a single analysis sucessfully to a large number of people, or even two persons, as we're all distinict individuals. Everyone starts, continues, and gets addicted for different reasons ... physical addiction may be a large contributing factor in many cases, but I believe psychology places a huge role - and this is something that all our counselors and programs can't hope to address in their current, mass-marketed manner.

thats all i've got worthwhile to say.
 
NEGRO-aww, u should DEFINITELY try that trick out with smoking the joint in front of the AA peeps after a meeting..i never thought of doing that myself, as i dont smoke dope, BUT i would PAY to see their reaction to something like that..at my clinic we have group meetings, and i tried them out..they were 2 hours long, and in between we had a 10 minute break..out of about 15 people, me and MAYBE ONE other person wouldnt smoke cigarrettes(i dont smoke, never have, never will), but everyone else seemed like they couldnt wait to get outside to light up..shit, everyone at the clinic, from counselors to the medicating peeps are always zipping outside to smoke..everyday i dose, i have to swerve in and out between crowd of smokers outside the clinic doors...yet, when it is GROUP MEETING TIME, they will all sit there and talk about how BAD WEED and other addictions are...drives me whacky..

another BIG MYTH, that living sober is better than being "hooked"..im proof of that..i have been clean about a year now, and have tried to implement activities and whatnot into the place of my past "addiction", but about 15 minutes ago, i was thinking to myself "FUKK THIS, can someone PLEASE PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD"...sobriety is great ehh???

i havent given up on GOD/prayer yet..
 
QUOTE]Originally posted by Tongue
NEGRO-aww, u should DEFINITELY try that trick out with smoking the joint in front of the AA peeps [[...]] another BIG MYTH, that living sober is better than being "hooked"..im proof of that..i have been clean about a year now, and have tried to implement activities and whatnot into the place of my past "addiction", but about 15 minutes ago, i was thinking to myself "FUKK THIS, can someone PLEASE PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD"...sobriety is great ehh???

i havent given up on GOD/prayer yet..
[/QUOTE]

1) They'd all immediately have to break out their cell phones to call their Mommies--I mean, "sponsors"... Can be a good idea ("sponsors"), but is often the path to an infantile dependence upon others--it can subvert one's self-esteem and ability to manage one's feelings and environment...

2) Doing drugs is one thing, but when the wheels finally fall off the wagon (full-blown addiction), then (by definition) a person is in over his head--otherwise, there wouldn't be a need to take a break, get on maintenance, etc.--otherwise, ¿why stop and sober up/do maintenance in the first place???...

(I'm NOT talking here about those whose lives aren't fucked up, but who simply get busted and are forced into "rehab".)

3) People can safely conclude that there is no god, and that Prayer is but a Hoax.

"It's interesting that imaginary gods function exactly like the 'real' ones", lol...
 
neverfree neverbound said:
Welcome...

>"Saying all of this, I cannot, and will not buy in to the dogma of AA/NA that once you have begun an addiction, you cannot end it and return to baseline."<

12-Step annoys me, but I don't see how, say, an opioid addict can ever return to baseline (unless you define "baseline" in some other way). To me, a True "return to baseline" would mean abstaining until my tolerance was back to zero (I'm there now) AND not being addicted--just like when I first began taking opioids (my "baseline"). I simply can't imagine such a "return" to a state in which I'm not on the edge of addictive behavior if I started using the same problem drug...

>"This just not make any sense, addiction is a physiological reaction to an internal stimulus. You are not born with painfully unsatisfied opiod receptors in your brain...you develop them by ingesting opiates."<

But, once the train gets a rollin'... ¿do you Truly Believe that you can, in essence, start afresh???...
 
That's what I keep on tryin' to do...I guess you are right, intellectually I believe that I can, but I have proved all to often that I cannot. Maybe the "nature" in this nature v. nurture debate proves itself again. Maybe our(my) "baseline" is just what it is...Using, Consequences, Withrawal, REMORSE, rationalization, repeat if necessary.(It always is).

In response to Neverfree: I have never met an addict that has not replaced one dependence for another. God is a drug.

{By the way, I apparently got the quote function confused. Sorry.}
 
What a tops thread!! :D

What I hate is the way the 12 step model of "addiction" has become normalised within the collective consciousness, but all the intelligent commentary is sidelined. Everyone knows how to say "once a junkie ..." and "I've got an addictive personality" but hands up if you've read Norman Zinberg's seminal classic "Drug, set and setting" (online at www.drugtext.org )??? The guilt and self-hatred that comes with the 12-step model makes more people's lives worse than it helps, IMO :X
 
Oh yeah - and the other thing I hate: "I can get higher now on life than I ever did on drugs", to which I say "Well, you must have got shit drugs, or they were so good they destroyed your memory" ;)
 
Well, there's alot of odd stuff going back and forth here. I wont try to break up you guys's circle jerk, but I will set an example.

I go to between 2 and 6 meetings a week, and I hang out with sober friends that many days, and maybe more. I half heartedly work the twelve steps; more like I try to live an honest, moral life. The last time I missed getting high was probably over a year ago, before I get serious about changing my life. All this self-loathing and brainwashing stuff is pretty much bullshit. I have yet to meet a person who follows the suggestions people make in 12 steps organizations who is miserable, depressed, or guilty for more than a week or two.

As for getting higher on life than on drugs, I don't know. I can't remember any specific instances when high where I was having any particular fun, outside of the familiar feeling of being high. These days, every time I do something I enjoy, its distinct, memorable, and very pleasurable.

AA/NA certinly isn't for everybody. Its just there for the people who want it. I don't know why this discussion is even happening. Most of you guys are perfectly happy doing the drugs you like. Why knock a group of people who would gladly spend time with you if you wanted to detox, to drive you to your job if you lost your car, or listen to you bitch about how hard it is not to be high right now. All I'm seeing right now is a big orgy of justifications for why you didn't stay clean that time you wanted to. 8)
 
Sorry Atlas - I agree that 12 step certainly works for some, and I don't mean to disrespect your choices.

However, widespread dissemination of the IMO arbitrary and probably incorrect model for understanding habitual behaviour suggested by the 12 step movement can have the following consequences:
1. You turn your life around and stop being a fuckup - good on you
OR
2. You continue to use your drug of choice and hence think of yourself as a failure - better take more drugs to kill the pain...
AND/OR
3. You try and attribute people's problems to their substance use - when they tell you that you are wrong, you tell them that they are "in denial"
AND/OR
4. Abstinence-based treatment programs get the funding, even though the evidence basis for them is at best ambiguous and at worst damning
AND/OR
5. Harm reduction strategies with strong supporting research evidence like needle exchange, methadone, prescription heroin, safer injecting rooms etc get the shaft because politicians don't want to "send the wrong message"
AND/OR
6. People confuse sobriety with morality. Whether or not you like to get wasted is jack all to do with your personal ethical system. Drugs don't remove personal responsibility.
AND/OR
7. A truck load of intelligent discourse on human behaviour is ignored or discounted (by the way, did I mention Zinberg?)
AND/OR
8. I think I'm running out of steam, but you get the point :) It's all about HARM REDUCTION!
 
from the bottom of every bluelight page

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "SAFE" DRUG USE!

But thats beside the point. It seems most of your complaints stem from the nebulous idea that 12 steps programs are some kind of octopus that have their tentacles in every social institution that have anything to do with drug policy.

Sending people to rehab, and requiring them to attend 12 steps meetings is one thing. Its an easy way to monopolize a patient's time. It seems to work. It, in theory, gives them a place to go after rehab is over with. In that sense, I'd agree that AA/NA is over involved in the treatment scene. Its a cop-out, and an easy thing to assign, for the reasons I mentioned.

That notwithstanding, 12 steps organizations have policys to avoid the very idea of the institutionalization of the 12 steps you mentioned. I hate to quote the 12 traditions, or any other lit, but I'll go ahead.

The 12 Traditions of NA

exerpts

Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

Narcotics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the NA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

NA, as such, ought never be organized, but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

An NA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the NA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, or prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

As a person who has weekly contact with someone who helped write the basic text, and another who founded the NA chapters in two states, I can tell you that these things are taken damn seriously. If there is any unhealthy crossover between the 12 step community, and the greater addiction recovery community, it has much less to do with NA proper, and much more to do with individuals operating within local governments and institutions not affiliated with NA. You got a problem with the death of diolouge in the recovery field, talk to someone else. The people who set policy in 12 steps organizations would like nothing better than to be left alone.

As for the criticisms, I'll speak to each of them on their own, with my personal experience. Most of what I have to say could be referenced easily, but its late, and its easy to come by on your own:

2. You continue to use your drug of choice and hence think of yourself as a failure - better take more drugs to kill the pain...

I don't know about you, but I was experiencing that on my own without NA. It still, with or without a program to keep you clean, comes down to a matter of choice. I chose not to get high today. I simply couldn't make that choice and succeed early on, thats where the friends and new ways of thinking I aquired stepped in and made it easier to stick to the choice I made. If I ever choose to get high again. That'll be the end of my clean time, nothing is going to stop me if I set my mind to it.

3. You try and attribute people's problems to their substance use - when they tell you that you are wrong, you tell them that they are "in denial"

Ya, and I'd be fibbing if i said I didn't see plenty of that on a weekly basis. That, however, is also something I did before I got clean, and would probably do if I stopped going to meetings. Thats not to say that the twelve steps have nothing to say: they do. Someone who is supposed to be following "the program" ought to be focused on their own personal shortcomings, rather than "taking another person's inventory".

4. Abstinence-based treatment programs get the funding, even though the evidence basis for them is at best ambiguous and at worst damning

Thats not entirely true. I went to a compulsory DUI class that advocated 1 to 2 drinks a day, tops. They, did, as a caveat, say that because of my binge drinking, I was an alcoholic, and shouldn't be drinking at all. Outside of that, I can think of a totally rational reason that rehabs, probations, drug courts, et cetera would advocate strict abstinence: most drugs of abuse in most countries are illegal. Don't put the cart before the horse. rehab advocates abstinence because there is already a structure, (the government), that says drug use, (not just drug abuse), is immoral and illegal. It isn't the other way around.

5. Harm reduction strategies with strong supporting research evidence like needle exchange, methadone, prescription heroin, safer injecting rooms etc get the shaft because politicians don't want to "send the wrong message"

See last response. There aren't shooting gallerys here (in the US), because shooting smack is against the law. Its impossible for the government to say that drugs are absolutely horrible (which they aren't), that nobody has the right to use them (which isn't true), and to, at the same time, say that its ok to use them once you've started. Write your elected leaders, don't take it out on the people who have decided to abstain from drugs.

6. People confuse sobriety with morality. Whether or not you like to get wasted is jack all to do with your personal ethical system. Drugs don't remove personal responsibility.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but I'll share things about myself. I stole from friends to support my habit. I broke laws, other than the obvious ones, to support my habit. I hurt people emotionally and physically to support my habit. None of that phased me. I like to think that I'm much better now that I don't have to worry about how I'll get high. Thats just me though. Plenty of people don't do that stuff when they're using, or when they're actually hard-core addicts. Plenty of people still do fucked up shit when they're clean. AA/NA is notorious for people who have plenty of clean time poaching on chicks who have half a week clean, and fucking their brains out on their wife's bed ;). People in NA are supposed to be living by spiritual principles, they may, and they might not be. Either way, none of this has much to do with your criticism, just as, in turn, your criticism has very little to do with 12 steps organizations.

7. A truck load of intelligent discourse on human behaviour is ignored or discounted (by the way, did I mention Zinberg?)

Ignored by whom? Go talk to those people. Also, see my other responses.

8. I think I'm running out of steam, but you get the point It's all about HARM REDUCTION!

Harm reduction has very little to do with the nuts and bolts of addiction. Harm reduction, in the forms you mentioned (shooting galleries, prescription heroin, methadone programs, needle exchanges) has nothing to do with "recovery". In all of those cases, use still continues, and addiction still exists. Psychological and physical craving may be abated, and the addict may be physically healthier, and more a member of society, but take it away, and you've got a raging, detoxing junkie. Most of all, that nasty psychological addiction stays put. Ultimately, I think all of those things should exist. However, calling an organization bullshit because one of its effects (you think) is that it makes other outcomes less likely, is short-sighted, close-minded, and obtuse. There is plenty of room for both to exist here in the states the way they do in Europe.

Anyway, this has turned into a fun discourse, and I hope I'm able to keep up.
 
In the area I live, there's roughly 300 AA groups alone, not counting NA, CA and others. I've been to a fair amount of different groups from the 3 fellowships I've mentioned and I have to say, there are groups that I like more than others.
I've been to groups consisting of your typical rich alcoholic types who own mansions and maybe crashed the mercedes one too many times on a martini bender, and I've been to groups where the average member drank rubbing alcohol, was unemployed and living in a shelter... I've been to meetings in detox'es.
Despite the fact that I might not feel at home with some of the people at the meeting I'm at, I almost always leave with the feeling of personal gain, a little stronger, a little more grown up.
I think its true that some people get wrapped up in the program with an unhealthy fanaticism, but so what? You get all types. I guess I'm lucky to have the luxury of being able to pick and choose the meetings i want to go to on any given night.
Myself being an addict, as well as an alcoholic, I've never had a problem with being ostracized at an AA meeting for being an addict.. Maybe this would've been the case 40 years ago, but these fellowships change with the times just like everything, with the exception of their common goal i guess. I have, mind you, met hard-core NA'ers who would never step foot in an AA meeting, and likewise, but why get wrapped up in this? Whatever keeps it takes to get spiritually healthy and sober, man, that's really what it's about.
I've gotten amazing advice for dealing with cravings, dealing with self-pity, lonliness, mood swings, even good medical advice, because thats what i do, I go and ask questions and try to talk to people. Sometimes I go just to listen to the speaker. At any rate, I think that the comment about intelligent commentary being sidlined is bullshit
I've never been asked to leave a meeting because I was drunk, although, they did ask me to try to be sober if i came back. I don't go to meetings intoxicated anymore, because i won't get anything out of it.
Basically, you get out of it what you put in. If you go to meetings, sit there, and do/say nothing, chances are that's all you'll get- nothing.
I've left meetings feeling worse than when i got there, but this is fairly common with newcomers, and I'll keep going back. Why flush sobriety down the drain because of a bad meeting?
I remember the very first meeting i ever went to. It was an NA meeting, and i showed up drunk, and everyone there knew it. Everyone there was so happy, or at least alot happier than i was, and i found the whole thing to be just weird.
One guy came over to talk to me after the meeting and was really friendly, gave me his phone #, told me he would even give me bus tickets to get to meetings if i wanted them. I had never been treated like this, especially being drunk, and misread what was going on.
My reaction to this was one of suspicion and cynicism. There had to be a hidden agenda. I couldn't grasp that this guy really wanted to help, and i'd probably up to then, never met anyone who showed a genuine interest in thier fellow man.
Needless to say, the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth. "These people are bible freaks...fanatics." I thought, and i never went back until about 1 year ago, when i was ordered into treatment by the courts. It was only after going to a few meetings (sober) that i began to see that at least some of these people were TRULY happy and comfortable in their own skin. I also started to see that i had alot more in common with these people, aside from a penchant for booze/drugs, than i'd originally seen, and they were making it, unlike me who tried everything and failed.
Let's face it, who would ever want to spend their evening sitting around with a bunch of people moaning about how they fucked up they are, and how guilty they feel.. I do enough of that when i'm drinking/using.
So i really doubt that any of these outrageous claims about 12 step recovery were made by anyone who ever stuck around long enough to notice the positive sides to it.
BTW tongue, I think you're childish at best, but don't worry about it, you'll grow out of it someday, or maybe not.
 
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