Any Atheists here?

[rickolasnice]

I didn't say it was primarily because I am interested in other cultures and different world views (although I am)..

These aren't attacks. They are statements / questions to inspire free thought for people to either question or learn a little bit more about their faith. As well as for them to inspire me and for me to learn more about their faith.

I enjoy talking about religion either way..

And yeah South Park.

But again.. There's no reason to suggest that problems caused (or worsened) by religion would be as prevalent if religion wasn't there. Violent crime rates are generally lower in atheist countries, people are treated more fairly in atheist countries (whatever your sexual orientatin, sex or religious views are), etc etc. Creationism wouldn't exist if it weren't for religion, women's rights to abortions would not be impacted, people would not consider contraception to be against gods will; leading to unwanted pregnancies and the spread of HIV, children wouldn't be dying because parents leave their life in the hands of god, people would not be being killed for "insulting" Allah, etc etc..

Assuming these problems wouldn't go away is unreasonable when most of these problems stem from (or are still here because of) some crappy book..

 

[mal3volent]

^why would anyone trust a malevolent being? Haha. Everything you say is worth argument simply because of where it comes from, for one. You don't know what's plausible. Your entire world could be upside down. God could be an eddy in a much larger system (also, its God, but perhaps it realizes it and becomes it like you can become it/are it). You might be an eddy within that. It really doesn't have to play by your rules. You play by its rules... but you soon find they are your own. (So, yea, your rules).

So according to you, literally ANY thing could be possible. We could not exist, Earth could be flat, clouds could be made out of marshmallow, smoking cigarettes COULD be good for your health... The difference between you and I is that you seem to consider every possibility to be plausible... which fundamentally does not make sense. I only accept something as plausible when I have evidence that it actually is plausible.

"God" has been translated as the law. Jesus has been called the governor. A demon is a challenge, and a devil... And "Satan", an adversary.

What are your working definitions? Why is "God" not plausible and what is God to you?

I already answered this, but the existence of an all powerful deity...a divine creator...an omniscient celestial entity... whatever it might be, is not plausible because in order for something to be plausible it has to be reasonable and/or credible. What evidence has been presented to show that the claim of a gods existence is reasonable, credible, or plausible?

Are you arguing against the bearded white fellow with flowing robes who has a throne he sits in? Well, I can understand your argument/why you might argue, but no matter what, you still don't know. Maybe God is exactly that. Maybe you need to deconstruct what all this might mean-- to see it not literally, before you see it actually plausible to be ... literal, at least in a sense (maybe not bearded white fellow, but who knows... God might find comfort in finding himself in a bearded white fellow with flowing robes, on a nice chair...).

God is mysterious. And it goes on forever. Elusive... yada. I don't really know. I just know that you don't either.

For the record, God could decide to, as he has, become an Asian Russian black dude, who likes stilts. I cannot deny God, and his will.

I have never said that I know a god does not exist or I believe a god does not exist. I have said I do not believe a god exists. If you can't understand the difference, there really is no point in carrying on this conversation.

 

[What 23]

I tend not to "believe" my own eyes. I'm sort of agnostic to the world. I understand certain things seem to be certain ways most of the time. But I have been around long enough (not to say longer than 31 years) to see that there seems to be unseen (at times) strings pulling things along, into greater patterns than I can normally see.

I associate physical constants (more or less "constants", within proportion) to be like looking at Gods work... Gods body... Gods process. My view of God is kind of Taoist, I think... But I can't discount that it might coalesce into something more "complex" (well)... even "human"... or flying spaghetti monster looking/like. To me... It is more plausible God exists (by my definition of God- the way I work it), than not.

God is just a word, but it tends to work, most of the time, for me. And then when it doesn't, that becomes God- that which makes it not work--which breaks the rule, but it is God, was God before, and this needed to happen, to God. God is the way. Tao can be translated simply as "the way".

I know my views can seem to go round and round... the both is and isnt, and believing it's still possible that in some sense, at least, the world is flat (such as, say, we are really on a wafer of sorts, and/or this is a simulated "reality", which is in the realm of scientific questions). Some might call it a cop out... I call it covering my ass. It doesn't mean I won't treat the world as round.

I find it hard to work that cigarettes are good for your health, unless I have really long arms. Then maybe they have benefited or will benefit cancer research, somehow, or our knowledge, basically, which can indirectly be good for our health and might prevent future you from getting cancer from something or another (future you as in your children, lets say).

 

[vegan]

[Sarcastic mode]

sarcasm stops being sarcasm as soon as you mention it

it is used between people who are able to interpret others' posts without being held by the hand
if someone needs to explain that he's using sarcasm, either the poster or the reader is not at 100%

I suspect many atheist inclining towards materialism because it suits their hidden agenda (to reject religious views)

it's better to think and conclude that to suspect

i'm an example of atheist (100% till proven wrong) who views as very probable that there is a non-material component to the universe : as there is space, time, matter and energy, there could also be a consciousness constituent

atheists have a hidden agenda?! seriously
you have atheists would don't care, they don't have any agenda
and you have those who care, who have their agenda written all over their faces. i barely call this hidden

dawkins has a ted talk called "militant atheism"
how is that a hidden agenda?

 

[Tromps]

Atheist,

Who created us?
Who made everything from nothing?
Why are you created?
After you die you become forgotten, do you like to live in such a state?

Every human has to believe some power to return to regarding the method of his life.

You are so sure of your belief. You know it is the truth, and any faith is false, everyone else is wrong.

All of you claim to know the ultimate truth better than the rest.

Did you realize that most everyone in a practiced belief is a pious and honest person just like you?
Belief is as firm as your belief?
Well confirmed in their justifications?
They feel the existence and obedience of God beyond measures and opinions.
Love in an indescribable way.
They can also defend their belief in the same enthusiasm with which you defend your belief.
You contradict with them about both the big and the small issues.

What are the measures rational people can agree upon in which they can use to measure the nature of the truth?

 

[mal3volent]

"Dear atheist, who created us?"

Lol ^

 

[Tromps]

Dear Human,

I should have added. I am speaking to you as human. We are both human, no? lol

Sincerely, Human.

 

[Psyduck]

Who created us?
Who made everything from nothing?

This presupposes the major philosophical absurdity/duality of non-being & being.

Maybe the "idea" of two separate phases (non-being -> being) is itself empty: whether it be by laws of logic (principle of non-contradiction), or flaws in our current language (cf. Wittgenstein/Carnap). Likewise, maybe the idea of a "first cause" (cf. Aquinas/Aristotle) is inherently flawed too, since an infinite regressus argument is "invalid," and moreover the principle of sufficient reason does not hold.

Maybe, after enough philosophical masturbation, the heated question of creation becomes "empty" (=pseudo-problem caused by language/logic) both for atheists and theists, because the very idea of a previous state (non-being) before the universe (being) is incomprehenisible in the first place.

I am just pointing out that, maybe before two people start a lengthy discussion of such a delicate question, it would be wise that both parties check their implicit philosophical presuppositions first.

---


Personally, I find the question of creation one of the most foreign elements incorporated by Christian theology. The marriage between Plato's Timaeus and the Gospels should have never happened. Just like the bastard child that came out of this illegitimate marriage (i.e. creationism) should never have been born.

Debating about absurd ontological questions is THE EXACT OPPOSITE what Jesus Christ taught (i.e. active participation & agapeic service in the world -- as opposed to disinterested intellectual contemplation/discussion). Jesus had better things to do than find an ontological proof for the existence of God.

 

[rickolasnice]

Atheist,

Who created us?
Who made everything from nothing?
Why are you created?
After you die you become forgotten, do you like to live in such a state?

Nobody "created" us. I think you need to touch up on evolution by natural selection. I find 99.99% of creationist are just plain ignorant to what that term means.

Here: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html

Have a careful read through but by all means.. don't stop there.

Everything from nothing. So who made God? Oh right he's infinite. Ok.. Using that logic.. Would you accept that the universe itself is infinite.. It's in a constant state of expansion and retraction? There is no beginning and there is no end.

Why was i created? Well when mummy bear and papa bear love one another..

After i die yadayadayada.. Yes i am happy living with this belief. I'm happy to be alive because the probability of that happening is so improbable it's.. well.. fucking improbable. I accept this is the only life i have. I'm grateful for it. Would i like to believe there was something more? Well, honestly, yeah.. i would.
[/QUOTE]

You are so sure of your belief. You know it is the truth, and any faith is false, everyone else is wrong.

All of you claim to know the ultimate truth better than the rest.

Coin.. 2 sides.. One has evidence.. the other has unfounded faith..

Did you realize that most everyone in a practiced belief is a pious and honest person just like you?

No.. not everyone.. and who do you mean by you? Me? Or the next poster?

Belief is as firm as your belief?

Not quite.. If i told you Hitler is on the dark side of the moon enjoying a tea party with a talking pink elephant.. you'd think i'm talking bollocks. Absence of evidence = why believe in it.. so where do you draw the line? OK you may have a personal experience with communicating with Jesus (can be explained logically and rationally) but then how so you discount the many Muslims who worship Allah and Mohammed? Anecdotal evidence is the lowest form of evidence.. so much so it isn't actually evidence. (edit - ok.. i misread the question)

What are the measures rational people can agree upon in which they can use to measure the nature of the truth?

For me?

As i said.. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.. i will still say that a truth behind my interpretation of something is my interpretation of something. For example.. if i interpret a voice in my head as being the voice of Jesus.. then it is true that my interpretation of the voice in my head was Jesus.. that isn't to say the voice in my head was Jesus.

or

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.

NSFW:

I apologise in advance.. I'm drunk

 

[Maya]

I hope it's okay for you gentlemen that I discuss my opinion on these questions/matter:

Who created us? A higher being/beings
Who made everything from nothing? A supreme being/beings
Why are you created? -unknown. We could be an experiment for another purpose or simply a creation of a higher power that created us out of his likeness.

After you die you become forgotten, do you like to live in such a state? - unknown. I haven't died so I can't really answer this question. There are a lot of debates about afterlife but unless I have experienced this type of phenomena then I can answer this particular question.

Every human has to believe some power to return to regarding the method of his life. Undecided. It really depends how the person has been brought up as to what to believe.

You are so sure of your belief. You know it is the truth, and any faith is false, everyone else is wrong. No, sometimes even the ones that have been brought up (with solid teachings of the Catholic church tend to sway once there are flaws that were discovered and such)

All of you claim to know the ultimate truth better than the rest. I am basing my answer on my personal opinion and experiences and as of now I am undecided. I still want to believe in the higher supreme God but finding out a lot of contradictions in the Catholic church makes me question my faith.

Did you realize that most everyone in a practiced belief is a pious and honest person just like you? No, most of the people I have known to be regular church goers are big sinners.


What are the measures rational people can agree upon in which they can use to measure the nature of the truth? - You measure the truth by solid evidences, based upon studies and results.


As you may have all known, I have been struggling with my faith due to the flaws I have found in my own religion. I am not looking for answers but rather the truth behind all of these anomalies.

 

[rickolasnice]

Who created us? A higher being/beings
Who made everything from nothing? A supreme being/beings

Then who made / created the supreme being, Maya?

 

[Maya]

Then who made / created the supreme being, Maya?

Unknown. That's the thing, the Scientific evidence of creation does not cover these aspects. Even the theory of Charles Darwin is lacking as to how we are created.

 

[rickolasnice]

Is it?

If we are talking about the creation of life itself.. Then add a complex mix of chemicals and compounds with millions if not billions of years (resulting in many different mixes happening) with a lil bit of energy and voila.. Obviously this just speculation..

Having a mix of chemicals turn into replicating life forms is MASSIVELY improbable but.. not impossible.. it only had to happen once.

So back to who created the creator.. then who created the creators creator? And who created the creators creators creator?

We don't know the ins and outs of how life began.. but it sure doesn't look like some supreme being created it (a single cell, replicating organism) then walked away.

 

[Psyduck]

So back to who created the creator.. then who created the creators creator? And who created the creators creators creator?

Cf. also (tomorrow, if you sober up :D) my above remarks about such basic logical/metaphysical issues.

 

[Maya]

Is it?

If we are talking about the creation of life itself.. Then add a complex mix of chemicals and compounds with millions if not billions of years (resulting in many different mixes happening) with a lil bit of energy and voila.. Obviously this just speculation..

Having a mix of chemicals turn into replicating life forms is MASSIVELY improbable but.. not impossible.. it only had to happen once.

So back to who created the creator.. then who created the creators creator? And who created the creators creators creator?

We don't know the ins and outs of how life began.. but it sure doesn't look like some supreme being created it (a single cell, replicating organism) then walked away.

Like the big bang theory? But Creating a human being itself is hard to replicate without some type of technology (cloning) etc. So I still find it hard to believe that we just came out of nowhere if you get my drift. :D

 

[rickolasnice]

Read the link i posted Maya.. Human beings (or homo-sapiens) are just the latest species evolved from many, many others.. going right down to self replicating single celled organisms..

Psyduck.. Will do

 

[Maya]

Thanks Ricko, I have had the chance of reading the part of Evolution.

I do understand that due to breeding, the differences in our ethnicity happened, but how does being a pure Caucasian or pure Negroid relates to our diversities? Doesn't pure means pure?

 

[mal3volent]

Then who made / created the supreme being, Maya?

It had to have been an even more supreme being! But then...

 

[Tromps]

Nobody "created" us. I think you need to touch up on evolution by natural selection. I find 99.99% of creationist are just plain ignorant to what that term means. Everything from nothing. So who made God? Oh right he's infinite. Ok.. Using that logic.. Would you accept that the universe itself is infinite.. It's in a constant state of expansion and retraction? There is no beginning and there is no end.

Omgosh really you think a creation has no creator? I agree with it evolution tbh, since it's almost universally accepted, the dinosaurs also, there could be other life forms in the universe as well we don't know. I happen to think the first humans were Adam & Eve what's wrong with that? God planned out the entire universe from the start. 13 billions years ago time and space began and were born into existence with the creation of all matter. From my understanding and reading, it is also widely accepted in modern scientific creation theory that the universe had a beginning.

OK you may have a personal experience with communicating with Jesus (can be explained logically and rationally) but then how so you discount the many Muslims who worship Allah and Mohammed?

I can't say I have had a direct personal experience communicating with Jesus, I rejoice and eagerly hope to meet him when the time comes, but I do sense a spiritual energy and connection with God that is increasingly personal and real. I don't discount any Muslims who worship God/Allah(swt), btw they don't worship Muhammad(peace be upon) that would be haram(sin) only God alone is worthy of praise and worship. Muhammad and all people who submit with intention to consciously praise and worship God are faithful servants. Who am I to judge anyone.

Maya, you don't sound like an atheist by it's definition at all. Atheists are convinced that there is no possibility of God. At least agnostics sit on the fence and concede they aren't sure, can't decide with whats been currently presented to them, which is much more open-minded and rational.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Irreligious folk, you really need to get onto creating community growing, emotional support, practical life advice, socialization hub, charitable centers that welcome everyone (who can swallow some basic credo). Until you (as a community) really invest in helping those that are lost and troubled, instead of dispensing the "make your own meaning/do what you want" aphorism, or trying to pass them off to the psychiatric industry instead of treating them like people who can be helped by human involvement and honest interaction, you won't be able to render religion obsolete.

As you are now, you seem more like a group of people who are comfortable with their place in, or their place in opposition to, modern society and its values (and who think everyone else is like this, or should be able to get there easy enough). You gotta deal with the problem of anomie. Fear of death or explaining natural phenomena is not what fuels the pious, it's the support. Organized religion offers a trellis for personal development, fertilizes growth and helps you prune the BS. If people are just developing on their own (esp. those who are poorly socialized), there are so many years spent growing yourself towards dead ends, such a wild mass of thoughts and feelings with no order, people living stunted lives for lack of coherency and ontological security, such struggle that many are lost to despair.

Maybe I'm just babbling, I dunno.