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Abortion: For and Against

MynameisnotDeja said:
To me it doesn't matter if a fetus is a life or not. My body, my choice. They can make it illegal all they want. It's still my body and my choice. No matter what.
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But at some point the fetus becomes more than your body, and it's not just a matter of birth that separates that. I mean, a fetus a day after conception is for all intents and purposes part of your body, but a fetus a day before being due is more than that, right? Of course it's still your choice, but at some point it's a choice that's affecting more than just your body.
 
L O V E L I F E said:
^^^^^^^^^^

Should those who rape serially and don't feel a shred a guilt about it not be punished?

This debate should, imo, NOT be about "pushing morality on others" but rather:

"WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE AS TO WHEN A FETUS BEGINS TO HAVE RIGHTS?"

And, that's clearly debatable, imo.
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Human beings have been choosing for other human beings whether or not they have the right to live or not through wars and the fight for resources. Human beings can justify so much so much bullshit for what they do and it all makes me horribly sick. If you asked me, I would say kill a fetus for the sake of the human who are living to ease their own burden because it is being responsible for yourself and not something that is spiritually esoteric. But I don't claim to be a rational person and I don't claim to have a conviction in this thought but merely make it for the sake of it sociological concern which makes it NOT a philisophical debate.
 
Papa said:
But at some point the fetus becomes more than your body, and it's not just a matter of birth that separates that. I mean, a fetus a day after conception is for all intents and purposes part of your body, but a fetus a day before being due is more than that, right? Of course it's still your choice, but at some point it's a choice that's affecting more than just your body.
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Well, they made late term abortions illegal anyway didn't they? I don't see why a woman can't have one early on. I believe I had mine at 6 weeks.
 
^Same here deja. I actually had to wait it out a week until I was further along. Another piece of misinformation people like to throw around is that the woman will regret it and feel guilty. I'm sure some do, but for me I had no guilt at all. It's probably because I don't feel it's life.
 
MynameisnotDeja said:
Well, they made late term abortions illegal anyway didn't they? I don't see why a woman can't have one early on. I believe I had mine at 6 weeks.
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Sorry to just jump in. I thought from your last post you meant that a fetus was part of a woman's body until birth, and I wanted to say that while largely true I don't think that's entirely correct. As for early term abortions I'm with you.
 
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that Papa. Even though I am pro-choice, partial birth abortions are completely different than early term ones IMO. That's when I think I might have a problem with it, although im not one to judge a person for whatever they do.
 
You know what I detest?!

This idea which seems not-too-rare about all of these people spouting off about "NOT WANTING TO IMPOSE OUR MORALITY ON OTHER PEOPLE!"

I call BULLSHIT!

I dare any ONE of you to honestly post that you REALLY think that we should decriminalize RAPE or MURDER - after all - that's shoving your morality down other people's throats.

There are PLENTY of rapists and murderers who don't think it's the slightest bit unethical to rape or murder:

"She was teasing me all night, and said she thought I was sexy - of course I was gonna fuck her - fuckin' tease!"

or

"He flirted with my girlfriend, so I had to man up and kill the motherfucker!"

These people would say you're pushing YOUR morality on them by making their (in their mind) moral actions illegal.

THAT was my point earlier:

No - rape is NOT the same thing as an abortion.

MY point then, which I hope I am clarifying now is this:

It's a matter of line-drawing.

Some people think we shouldn't eat animals.

Maybe one day, we'll laugh at the fact that we once did.

We used to think that it was completely acceptable to own blacks.

We evolve, we learn and discover new things, we become more enlightened, and and we change.

But with all of that said, my main point is this:

The ABORTION ISSUE is CLEARLY DEBATABLE:

I CLEARLY see the SMART "pro-choice" argument as reasonable - that the fetus isn't a life/can't feel pain/doesn't have rights,.

If you buy this (I don't), then it DOES indeed make sense to keep abortion legal.

But if you concede that a fetus, at some point, becomes tantamount to a ONE-MINUTE OLD PERSON, then I'd debate Oliver Wendell Fucking Holmes about this issue, because it's CLEARLY murder, if you concede that the fetus is a person.

And if you honestly think it's OK to murder THAT person, then you can make the argument that you can murder a whole lotta people.

And I really don't think that anyone reasonable really thinks that.
 
moonyham said:

Im for, most definitly.

Abortion helps keep the population down, end of.

Besides, the 'baby' doesn't know what that this world has burger king, lcd tv's and the internet.. Its not like its a conscious being that has enjoyed life, its a brainless, mindless noob who cant think and doesnt know what its missing out on.
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Let's murder retards and people from third-world countries whose lives suck!

THEY shouldn't be in control of whether they live or die - YOU should be in charge of killing them.

Great argument.
 
How do you feel about abortion?

I'm for abortion in the case of incest, rape, or something like that but I'm not for it when a woman gets pregnant and does not want a child since there is so much better effective birth control than abortion like the pill/nuva ring/condoms/etc., and I have a friend that is supposedly "pro life" but he got the same woman pregnant twice at separate times and paid for two abortions for her, I'm not supposed to know this but a mutual friend of ours got drunk and told me.

I'm not for partial birth abortions or the later term ones at all.

I have one friend that likes abortion since it's murder because you are preventing someone from being born, and we have an overpopulation problem on planet earth.

I have another friend that thinks that if a man and a woman have been legally married and then get divorced that the man should have the right to veto any abortion that he wants.
 
I'm for abortion in the case of incest, rape, or something like that but I'm not for it when a woman gets pregnant and does not want a child since there is so much better effective birth control than abortion like the pill/nuva ring/condoms/etc., and I have a friend that is supposedly "pro life" but he got the same woman pregnant twice at separate times and paid for two abortions for her, I'm not supposed to know this but a mutual friend of ours got drunk and told me.

I'm not for partial birth abortions or the later term ones at all.

I have one friend that likes abortion since it's murder because you are preventing someone from being born, and we have an overpopulation problem on planet earth.

I have another friend that thinks that if a man and a woman have been legally married and then get divorced that the man should have the right to veto any abortion that he wants.
 
L O V E L I F E said:
Let's murder retards and people from third-world countries whose lives suck!

THEY shouldn't be in control of whether they live or die - YOU should be in charge of killing them.

Great argument.
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Yeah i should, give me a gun and a few billion bullets.
 
L O V E L I F E said:
You know what I detest?!

This idea which seems not-too-rare about all of these people spouting off about "NOT WANTING TO IMPOSE OUR MORALITY ON OTHER PEOPLE!"

I call BULLSHIT!

I dare any ONE of you to honestly post that you REALLY think that we should decriminalize RAPE or MURDER - after all - that's shoving your morality down other people's throats.

There are PLENTY of rapists and murderers who don't think it's the slightest bit unethical to rape or murder:

"She was teasing me all night, and said she thought I was sexy - of course I was gonna fuck her - fuckin' tease!"

or

"He flirted with my girlfriend, so I had to man up and kill the motherfucker!"

These people would say you're pushing YOUR morality on them by making their (in their mind) moral actions illegal.

THAT was my point earlier:

No - rape is NOT the same thing as an abortion.

MY point then, which I hope I am clarifying now is this:

It's a matter of line-drawing.

Some people think we shouldn't eat animals.

Maybe one day, we'll laugh at the fact that we once did.

We used to think that it was completely acceptable to own blacks.

We evolve, we learn and discover new things, we become more enlightened, and and we change.

But with all of that said, my main point is this:

The ABORTION ISSUE is CLEARLY DEBATABLE:

I CLEARLY see the SMART "pro-choice" argument as reasonable - that the fetus isn't a life/can't feel pain/doesn't have rights,.

If you buy this (I don't), then it DOES indeed make sense to keep abortion legal.

But if you concede that a fetus, at some point, becomes tantamount to a ONE-MINUTE OLD PERSON, then I'd debate Oliver Wendell Fucking Holmes about this issue, because it's CLEARLY murder, if you concede that the fetus is a person.

And if you honestly think it's OK to murder THAT person, then you can make the argument that you can murder a whole lotta people.

And I really don't think that anyone reasonable really thinks that.
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I respect your passion and oversensitivity over a multicell... zygote, but .....under the circumstances that it is an unwanted and unprepared pregnancy:

A) The fetus is not a person! The fetus is far from possessing the crucial elements of personhood

B) It does not give the fetus a moral right to the use of the woman's body

C) The woman has no moral obligation to allow the fetus to use her body for a life support system

She has a moral obligation to herself and to the future of a born child.
 
I've never been able to look at a fetus as a real person, to me it's the same as being anti-condom because of all the potential sperm that could have gotten through in order to make conception possible.

If it got to some kind of carefree type of thing, like hey fuck the consequences I'll just have an abortion, then yeah I think that attitude would annoy me. But that's nothing I've ever come across. It's more like hey the rubber broke, hey the pills failed, I can't handle raising a child right now, etc. Then comes the age-old "you shouldn't do the deed if you can't handle the consequences" argument but yeah now that I've been introduced to sex I don't see myself going without any time soon, not by choice, and I couldn't handle a kid right now.

Sex is amazing, and it's common knowledge now that birth control is pretty effective. And it's also common knowledge that when shit happens, there are options. I don't have any problem with this. But who knows, maybe my attitude will change if I do get a girl pregnant some day?

Anyways one other thing is that I believe a girl should never be pressured to get an abortion if she doesn't want to go through with it, but that's another story I'd say. If that day does come when a girl comes to me with the news and wants my opinion, I will give it to her, but I will make it clear that the final decision is up to her.
 
moving to Philosophy and spirituality for the mods to merge with current thread in there :)
 
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Lysis said:
^Same here deja. I actually had to wait it out a week until I was further along. Another piece of misinformation people like to throw around is that the woman will regret it and feel guilty. I'm sure some do, but for me I had no guilt at all. It's probably because I don't feel it's life.
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Yeah I know, I didn't feel any guilt either. Some people tried to scare me by saying they had known women who had abortions who were never the same, who regretted it forever, etc.

And I DO think it's a life, or at least a potential life. I always felt it was alive, but I don't feel it was a life with it's own rights yet. I feel it was a life which I was given complete and total power over, and it was up to me to decide what was best for it, including the option of sending it back into the source from which it came, which ended up being what I felt was best. Years later, I know that I made the right decision and I have absolutely no regrets.

I dare any ONE of you to honestly post that you REALLY think that we should decriminalize RAPE or MURDER - after all - that's shoving your morality down other people's throats.
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You're right. It is, I agree. There is no such thing as "morality" it's completely subject to opinion. As for the law well.. I have some pretty weird opinions there, but I doubt they would help this conversation much. To me, the law is irrelevant. People who want to murder people still do.

No matter what, the argument always goes back to the same place: whether or not you think the fetus has rights.

Let's murder retards and people from third-world countries whose lives suck!

THEY shouldn't be in control of whether they live or die - YOU should be in charge of killing them.

Great argument.
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If they were leaching off of my physical body to survive, then yes, Id say I had the right to terminate them.

I'm for abortion in the case of incest, rape, or something like that but I'm not for it when a woman gets pregnant and does not want a child since there is so much better effective birth control than abortion like the pill/nuva ring/condoms/etc., and I have a friend that is supposedly "pro life" but he got the same woman pregnant twice at separate times and paid for two abortions for her, I'm not supposed to know this but a mutual friend of ours got drunk and told me.
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I'm sorry but this is crap.. what about when condoms fail? Some people cannot take birth control as I already stated in this thread. The chances of condom failure are pretty slim and it only happened to me once ever. I use a condom every single time I have sex and have never been stupid or careless, but shit happens.

She has a moral obligation to herself and to the future of a born child.
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Yes. :)
 
I think the problem is that too many people just think of sex as an 'innocent act' and that its just a pleasure thing like dancing. Chicks use to have to THINK before they let a cock slide into them, now its 'oh we'll just use a condom' and they'll fuck the night away.

Ultimately, unless one of the partners has 100% working birth control, then dont have sex unless you are ready to have kids. Problem solved. The only people who would then need abortions are for medical/rape reasons which the majority of people agree is an acceptable time to do abortions.
 
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