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Abortion: For and Against

retard isnt the same as fagget and nigger. Retard is short for 'retardation'.... its not like fagget is short for a perfectly legit and PC word like 'faggetation' or some shit or nigger is short for 'niggerite'... those are strait derogatory words designed and intended when used to be offensive and slanderous.

Just cause people might say 'man that guys a retard' when someone does something stupid, doesnt mean its instantly a derogatory word. People use a wide array of words that are used in everyday life in perfectly fine and un-offensive ways for the use in describing something in offensive context. Like 'fuck off' and 'i wanna fuck my gf but shes being bad buzz'.

When i use the word 'retard' its in the context you'd use 'disabled person'. Im just not some push over PC idiot who wants to cater to every dick and his dogs needs. If someone gets offended by me using words to describe something in an unslanderous/unoffensive way.. well you know what? Thats there problem.

Don't use the word 'retard' in here. It offends people. kthxbai.

Also, I'm absolutely positive that 'retard' as a noun for 'person of unusually low intelligence' is not acceptable in medical or psychological literature anymore. There was a time when 'idiot', 'imbecile', and 'moron' were used in medical journals to refer to mentally retarded people. Just because they were 100 years ago doesn't mean they are now. 'Mentally retarded' as an adjective is still (*barely*) acceptable. 'Retard' as a noun is not.
 
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There's a difference between extremely debilitating handicaps and something like Downs syndrome.

When you compare a person with an extremely dibilitating disorder, and a person with Downs Syndrome, it could be difficult to even remotely justify abortion of a foetus diagnosed with Downs. But you cannot tell me that a person who suffers from any debilitating disorder, including Downs Syndrome, has as easy a life as a normal healthy person.

Using Downs purely as an example, imagine how frustrating it could be for a Downs child to experience the learning difficulties, to see other kids their age being able to do their work at school with no problems, to see other kids play with the educational toys/puzzles etc without getting confused or not knowing how to work them. Imagine that child having to suffer the bullying of looking different to the other kids, and not being on the same intellectual/social/emotional level as other kids their age.
Also think of the common medical issues involved with Downs Syndrome: heart problems, hearing and inner ear problems, immune deficiencies, amongst other common things associated with the disorder. Plus on average they have a shorter life expentancy. I would imagine that a LOT of parents would not wish this upon any of their offspring.

Therefore, if it were up to me and if I had the choice, I would abort my pregnancy if it were diagnosed with Downs or any other major congenital disorder.

But that's the beauty of this argument, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's the individual's choice, no-one elses.
 
But if I could stop it from happening to someone, I would, that's MY form of compassion, you see? You can't deny that it's going to be a rough life for someone born retarded.. right?

Therefore, if it were up to me and if I had the choice, I would abort my pregnancy if it were diagnosed with Downs or any other major congenital disorder.

But that's the beauty of this argument, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's the individual's choice, no-one elses.

For sure. I really do believe that pro-choice is the way to go, and I wouldn't want to impose my beliefs any more than I'm doing here. I guess all I'm saying is the implications of screening for certain handicaps makes me uncomfortable. I like to think the world can accommodate and care for all types. I may be suffering from a hefty case of idealism though... I do know a number of people with Downs syndrome that are quite happy to be alive (and a number of parents that love their kids to death).

How would you feel if there was a test for, say, homosexuality? Would it be 'okay' for a woman to abort to avoid a homosexual child? A few of the same arguments apply (gay kids can have it pretty rough). How far should abortions be used to design kids?
 
For sure. I really do believe that pro-choice is the way to go, and I wouldn't want to impose my beliefs any more than I'm doing here. I guess all I'm saying is the implications of screening for certain handicaps makes me uncomfortable. I like to think the world can accommodate and care for all types. I may be suffering from a hefty case of idealism though... I do know a number of people with Downs syndrome that are quite happy to be alive (and a number of parents that love their kids to death).
While for myself I I could never abort my child- for others I feel they should have the right to choose..... There are many circumstances that could cause a person to deicide to not have the child..........

I too have seen that children with disabilities can live happy healthy lives- but I think it is up to the parent.......I feel that if I were unable to care for a handicapped child for some reason- I would put the child up for adoption. There is a part of me that thinks that it is unfair to bring a child into this world knowing they aren't going to have every opportunity in the world to be successful and live life to the fullest- but I feel that it would be almost selfish to not have the child. Again-I feel it should be up to the parents.
How would you feel if there was a test for, say, homosexuality? Would it be 'okay' for a woman to abort to avoid a homosexual child? A few of the same arguments apply (gay kids can have it pretty rough). How far should abortions be used to design kids?
You can not be serious.
I do not think abortion should be used in any way to design children.
I think that a child with disabilities is very different than a child who is gay.
 
How would you feel if there was a test for, say, homosexuality? Would it be 'okay' for a woman to abort to avoid a homosexual child?

It's not something I would do, but yes, I believe it's okay, because I feel it's the woman's choice to abort for any reason she wants.
 
You can not be serious.
I do not think abortion should be used in any way to design children.
I think that a child with disabilities is very different than a child who is gay.

I'm serious. What we've just been talking about is in effect a way to design a baby without handicaps. The motivation is clearly different than, say, choosing for eye colour, but the process is the same.

I totally agree that a gay child is different than a child with disabilities. However the arguments that were used before (the kid will have a tougher life than average, the parents might not know how/want to deal with the extra pressure) still apply. As well, the comparison also isn't that far off: both handicapped and homosexuals are large segments of the population that occasionally need to remind the world at large that they're still human beings. For reference, here's the disability movement wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_rights_movement.

What do you think?
 
^You're right- and I see where you are coming from and agree that being gay may put someone at a slight disadvantage but it is different than ,say , downs syndrome :)
Homosexuals do have to remind the world that they are people who deserve to live as equals with the rest of the population...(unfortunately) ...like people with disabilities,yes.
It is very frustrating that there is so much discrimination.....
BUT I still think that IF we were able to somehow tell that a child would be homosexual-it would be wrong to abort the child. I would hope that a person interested in aborting the child because of its sexuality would be counseled and given as much information about adoption before they would be allowed to go through with the abortion.I would hope they would decide that -if they were not able to care for the child- someone else would.
 
Personally I don't think that is a good enough reason to have an abortion- b/c you don't feel like having it......
But I think if so and so doesn't want to have it and its a good enough reason to abort their child-then they should be able to do so.
It would take something like my life being at jeopardy or incest for me to do it......
One of my closest friends had an abortion b/c she was in a bad situation-
it is her decision and i supported her through it.
I don't dislike her for her decision and i'm glad she has the right to choose for herself.......
I think choosing to abort a child b/c you don't agree with homosexuality is ridiculous.
I don't think discriminating against someone because of gender, race or sexuality is right.
Not allowing them life b/c of any of those reasons is wrong b/c ...........
I don't want to say the decision is made b/c of hatred but from a negative place.....
Maybe I'm wrong.......
 
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I wrote and (thought I) posted a reply about 2 hours ago but apparently it didn't post...

Papa, while I do understand the point you're making, in my opinion there is no similarity whatsoever between congenital disorders and homosexuality, in terms of the impact it will have on the health and wellbeing of the unborn child. Therefore I don't believe they can be linked in the same argument for abortion of defect-positive foetuses.

It absolutely sickens me at the mere hypothetical thought of a parent aborting their pregnancy because they found out it was homosexual.

Ughh, just awful.

Anyway, I hope I never live to see the day that happens...
 
Personally I don't think that is a good enough reason to have an abortion- b/c you don't feel like having it......
But I think if so and so doesn't want to have it and its a good enough reason to abort their child-then they should be able to do so.
It would take something like my life being at jeopardy or incest for me to do it......
One of my closest friends had an abortion b/c she didn't think she could handle it-
it is her decision and i supported her through it.
I don't dislike her for her decision and i'm glad she has the right to choose for herself.......
I think choosing to abort a child b/c you don't agree with homosexuality is ridiculous.
I don't think discriminating against someone because of gender, race or sexuality is right.
Not allowing them life b/c of any of those reasons is wrong b/c ...........
I don't want to say the decision is made b/c of hatred but from a negative place.....
Maybe I'm wrong.......

Ah yes, I understand. We all have our own morals so that makes sense for you. I am 100% pro choice no matter what the situation so I personally don't care what the persons reasons are for wanting to abort. I do think it would be a stupid reason (homosexuality) but to each their own.
 
I wrote and (thought I) posted a reply about 2 hours ago but apparently it didn't post...

Papa, while I do understand the point you're making, in my opinion there is no similarity whatsoever between congenital disorders and homosexuality, in terms of the impact it will have on the health and wellbeing of the unborn child. Therefore I don't believe they can be linked in the same argument for abortion of defect-positive foetuses.

It absolutely sickens me at the mere hypothetical thought of a parent aborting their pregnancy because they found out it was homosexual.

Ughh, just awful.

Anyway, I hope I never live to see the day that happens...

Yeah and your only looking at it from 'the unborn childs' point of view. What about the parents point of view? TBH i would be pretty fucking disappointed if i had a son who told me he was gay. Thats just me.. i dont have any problem with homosexuals but i still wouldnt want my son to be one.
 
Yeah and your only looking at it from 'the unborn childs' point of view. What about the parents point of view? TBH i would be pretty fucking disappointed if i had a son who told me he was gay. Thats just me.. i dont have any problem with homosexuals but i still wouldnt want my son to be one.

Well it just goes to show that everyone has their own different opinion doesn't it :)
 
i believe it's the womans choice, and thats it.

but if she were to do it because she somehow found out it was gay, i would be absolutely disgusted. that's terrible!
 
I wrote and (thought I) posted a reply about 2 hours ago but apparently it didn't post...

Papa, while I do understand the point you're making, in my opinion there is no similarity whatsoever between congenital disorders and homosexuality, in terms of the impact it will have on the health and wellbeing of the unborn child. Therefore I don't believe they can be linked in the same argument for abortion of defect-positive foetuses.

It absolutely sickens me at the mere hypothetical thought of a parent aborting their pregnancy because they found out it was homosexual.

Ughh, just awful.

Anyway, I hope I never live to see the day that happens...

Well then you can understand how some people would respond to aborting for defect-positive fetuses. "Defect" is for sure a relative label.

But I guess as people have been saying it comes down to whether you really are okay with 100% free choice on it. Even if it's not practical, do you think there should be any stipulations on what constitutes a justifiable reason to abort (e.g. like 'irreconcilable differences' or other circumstances for divorce)? Or do you think it's a decision that's totally off limits to the government?
 
Or do you think it's a decision that's totally off limits to the government?

Yes. Totally off limits. That's ridiculous that the government should be able to have a say in the reasoning behind someone doing something. No one outside of the mother even has to KNOW the reason behind her decision. It would be impossible to enforce anyway. It's like you can do this, but not for [reason a]. "Okay, I'm doing it for [reason b] then". Pointless.

100% the womans choice. For any reason she deems appropriate.
 
Yeah and your only looking at it from 'the unborn childs' point of view. What about the parents point of view? TBH i would be pretty fucking disappointed if i had a son who told me he was gay. Thats just me.. i dont have any problem with homosexuals but i still wouldnt want my son to be one.
For parents who can't have children, I don't think it would really matter what sexual orientation the child is, but don't you think, whatever your homophobic feelings are, once you knew from the start the child's orientation, that you would have plenty of time to accept it from the start?
Might cure your phobia too!!!
 
you realize, a phobia is a FEAR of something? I dont FEAR gays anymore than i FEAR tupperware. I simply dont want a gay son.. im not scared or hate gay's in everyday life, thats there choice and its all good by me so you really dont know wtf your talking about.
 
Sorry to resurrect a 5-day-dead topic, but the legality issue (more than the morality issue) really interests me. I'm kicking myself for not logging on sooner.

I originally just assumed that Roe v Wade was surely legal, and that those on "the right" were just bullshiting because they didn't get what they wanted, as they so often do. But then I actually looked into it, and saw it was based on pretty shaky ground, at best. Finally, however, I decided that the reasons for it, although complicated and shaky at first glance, actually are valid.


I'm in the awkward position of being pro-choice but anti-Roe v. Wade. It is my shameful secret that I often don't let out often. I hate to be in agreement with the right that it was legislation from the bench, but it was legislation from the bench.

The right to privacy isn't asserted much except when justices have had a social and legislative agenda.

Whats more private then a woman having control over her own reproductive processes? The choice to take psychedelics or not. The choice to take psychiatric meds or not. Actually all medical decisions are close to on par with the privacy factor of women' reproductive decisions but no special protections have been carved out to folks who with choosing alternative therapies or wanting an absolute bypass of public health issues.


Its given the impression that an elite unelected body can pull the plug on the democratic process as it sees fit. I'm no expert on jurisprudence by any means but Roe v. Wade was imo pulled out of the justices asses to accommodate a social agenda. By my estimation a worthy social agenda, but legislation from the bench is abhorrent to me even when I agree with the end goal.

Similarly I think court decisions affirming gay marriage in jurisdictions where the majority are opposed are Pyrrhic victories.

The most common argument I've gotten about this is that the Supreme Court didn't have an agenda. They only decide where they have standing. They had standing when the case reached them. The court rejects many cases every year, what cases they here is a matter of their agenda. The assertion of a right to counsel in state cases was made over and over but never made it to Supreme Court hearing until the court had decided it was a topic whose time had come.

I do think that rules and conditions about late term abortions are a very different issue and the pro-choice forces that try to lump everything together as a single, one size fits all issue are guilty of an extra layer of self deception. Perceiving a 7 month pregnancy as different than a first trimester pregnancy is not about oppressing women. It is a recognition that there is indeed a big difference.

I find several damning problems with an original meaning or strict texualist approach to the constitution, one that would (attempt to) eliminate the possibility of Justices legislating their opinions, or at least view that as wrong. First, and most convincing to me, is that by this reasoning we would have very, very, very few rights, and all sorts of important ones could be limited in unacceptable ways. For example, Brown v Board of Education would not be valid. All of the freedoms protected by the Bill of Rights could be completely abridged by state law. Griswold v Connecticut would not hold (States could criminalize the use of any form of contraceptives by married persons).

Second, the text of the constitution is often very ambiguous. There is no way to just look at the words and "figure out" what the objective legal meaning of them is. So what option do the justices have? They can flip a coin, or try to establish (via their personal opinion) what interpretation seems to fit within the "gist" of the rest of the constitution. The third option is they can interject their own opinion in a way that goes against what the "gist" of the rest of the Constitution is (and pull it out of their asses). I think that many (most?) cases that are controversial which people accuse of being cases of legislating from the bench, are actually the second case; although I concede that of course the third case takes place as well, as Justices are flawed human beings like anyone else.

Third, there is the matter of relevance. The constitution is a document over 200 years old. To hold it to be some sort of legal Bible whose perfect wisdom cannot be questioned or violated, strikes me as naive. There are all sorts of freedoms and situations unique to modern times that the framers could not have anticipated, so realistically, one must concede that the judges must "interpret" the freedoms that it protects, by creating "new" freedoms, not mentioned, that go along the same lines as the old ones.

I think the liberty to have an abortion is of the sort that the bill of rights intends to protect; that the sort of freedom an individual is entitled to as is implicit in the bill of rights would include the freedom to have an abortion, just as it would include the freedom to not be racially segregated. Furthermore, I think that the 14th amendment does indeed extend such liberties to the State level (although through the privileges and immunities clause rather than the due process clause).

The fact that 9 unelected officials have so much power seems quite wrong, but unfortunately that's the way our government was set up, and I think they have acted within their legal bounds in Roe v Wade. Thinking that the constitution protects rights not explicitly mentioned is just as much of an agenda as thinking the constitution only protects rights it specifically mentions; you can't avoid interjecting your opinion in how the constitution ought to be interpreted.

I agree that if a person has any sort of constitutional freedom to have an abortion, then they would also have a constitutional freedom to use psychedelics. But rather than thinking that neither is a constitutional freedom and Roe is wrong, I think that both are a freedom and most of our drug laws are unconstitutional.

I also agree that the decision may have hurt things in the long run, even though I think it was legally and morally the right decision. I think it played a significant role in the elections of Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr, and I think its plausible that they caused far more harm than would have been caused by allowing states to outlaw abortion.

EDIT: left out the word "against"
 
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Anyone ever think that MAYBE it's not our right to determine whether or not the fetus possesses life, rights, consciousness, or any semblance thereof. Whatever, we say is only an opinion, it is that persons choice to do what they will, be it 'moral' or not. The debate, as a whole, is delving too deep onto one side or the other. Both hands can argue until blue in the face, there will be no proof that either side is intrinsically right one way or another. I begged the question: "can we mind our own business?" and apparently we cant. Everyone always wants to justify the act or the abstinence thereof. The only people, who should have a say in the matter are the parents and the doctor.

In the case of LOVELIFE, we cant prevent rape or murder from happening unless infringing upon the citizens' unalienable rights. Sure we can make laws, codes of conduct and punishments but hell, well never come close to stopping the act outright. In all technicalities, a manslaughter or murder charge could be levied up against an abortionist, the mother or father, but by who? The government? These parents fucked each other to make that glimmer of possibility develop in the womb; I guess they can decide to do with it what they will. Eat it for all I care.
 
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