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AADD Moderators: andyturbo
Aborigines
- Thread starter AuraithX
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zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
^already taken care of, but thanks for the tip!
Shouldnt you be changing some nappies?
Shouldnt you be changing some nappies?
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
^ were you trying to insult me or stating a fact, since you know me so well whomever-you-are?
Im from melbourne and all my experience with aboriginals has involved them demanding and threatening me to give them money to buy alcohol. I dont think Ive met any besides the ones that hang around the city hassling people for change.
I know not all aborigines are like this but it doesnt help, that for alot of people this is the only experiences they will ever have of aborigines.
I know not all aborigines are like this but it doesnt help, that for alot of people this is the only experiences they will ever have of aborigines.
Doppelganger
Bluelighter
MR Candyslut said:
I agree with this, I also agree that aborigines should be treated with respect from the community.
That may be a contradiction, but lets think of any, say, homeless person again... they're ALL treated poorly. This proves that it's not necessarily a racist thing, but rather that people look down upon those who don't appear to be contributing to society.
I don't think there's anything racist about recognizing that aborigines have higher poverty rates! And I definitely don't think it's racist to give them extra support as a result! It just seems some people in this thread are throwing around the term 'racist'... while ignoring, or at least failing to acknowledge/ mention that what's going on is a real crisis. I agree that many comments that appear racist have been made, but it seems the majority of the people who are screaming racist, have side-stepped the crisis.
You can be honest about a problem - and still have compassion! Despite the fact my previous posts made generalizations, acceptance of who they are is all I was aiming for.
[I also realize that this is a very defensive post, and that it's highly probable that nothing was directed at me
, but yeah, the thought of being misunderstood on this issue, honestly makes me feel quite insecure.]
MR Candyslut
Greenlighter
^ hot
zephyr
Ex-Bluelighter
^ I dont think you are being misunderstood Doppelganger, you come across quite clearly in your posts. You cant help the idiots who have made up their mind about you and will give you shit at any opportunity, just because it makes them feel better about themselves 
But in regards to the issue at hand: what I am trying to say is: throwing money blindly will not fix things between us and them. It seems to be wasted as theres still syphillis and tuberculosis running rampant in the communities up north, theres child rape, drug addiction, petrol sniffing, drug abuse, you name it and they are getting a hell of a lot of funding.
Where is it going?
Been to Halls Creek lately?
But in regards to the issue at hand: what I am trying to say is: throwing money blindly will not fix things between us and them. It seems to be wasted as theres still syphillis and tuberculosis running rampant in the communities up north, theres child rape, drug addiction, petrol sniffing, drug abuse, you name it and they are getting a hell of a lot of funding.
Where is it going?
Been to Halls Creek lately?
Doppelganger
Bluelighter
^ Thanks for that Zephyr, it means a lot that you say that .
Also, as mentioned in previous posts, I know what you're saying, and I think the points you've raised are good. I just think somewhat differently [but we don't need to go through it again.]
.Also, as mentioned in previous posts, I know what you're saying, and I think the points you've raised are good. I just think somewhat differently [but we don't need to go through it again.]
college_dropout
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
- Messages
- 2,170
This thread really annoys me because both sides make sense. Both those who are "racist" and those who are "compassionate".
Listen to each other because good points are being made on both sides.
Listen to each other because good points are being made on both sides.
B9
Bluelight Crew
swifty said:
So your grandfathers grandfathers grandfather has been passing this (true) story down the generations (in a culture of storytellers as well) all the way to you, about how you were free once, and XYZ happened to fuck it all up ! You'd be well happy to go and assimilate with the whites ? Oh yeah and with all that readable but unspoken superiority that they would exude !
Think about it! Do you go where you are not wanted ?
Very few people have the ability to be able to overcome this type of unspoken negativity !
Better to feel loved in a shit hole than be alone in a palace!
My "quote for today"
Mary Poppins
Bluelighter
Oh god...I was almost relieved to find that at least part of this thread was taken up by useless banter 8) , but seriously - this thread is just another nail in the coffin of my opinion of the blinkered outlook of humanity.
Anti-racist
What I think many people who are racist towards Aboriginals fail to realise/acknowledge, as has probably been stated earlier, is that the stereotypical socially unacceptable behaviours so often attributed to them are a symptomatic (read:current) response to the mistreatment that generations upon generations of their people received and still do as evidenced in this thread(read: past and present).
It is for this reason that I consider any privilege, if you can even class it as that when compared with an era of complete abuse, extended to these people, is completely deserved, warranted, necessary and is 'the least we can do'.![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
I then further do not understand how people expect these privileges to immediately combat the aforementioned socially unacceptable behaviour, that yes, some aboriginal people do exhibit.
1. To me, regardless of the perpetrator, behaviour I don't accept is just that - unacceptable behaviour, not an indictment on a race. If anyone mistreats me, I reserve the right to judge them as an individual, but it's just completely redundant to paint everyone with the same brush.
Furthermore, understanding the social conditions that have led to these actions being/being perceived as prevalent is a step in the right direction to alleviate the problems they occur, rather than contributing to the vicious cycle of hate and exclusivity. By the same token, tarring white straight males (for example) with the term of racists is just as redundant IMO. People should be judged on their individual merits; when patterns occur in particular races, underlying problems should be evaluated and investigated.
2. The extra services extended to these races were not ever intended to directly remedy those behaviours - they are compensation that we as a nation (incorporating individuals, organisations and government) should and to some extent do, use to demonstrate our regret/apologies/wish for reconciliation to a group of people who our forefathers wronged (in the absence of a super-cool-machine that would undo all our mistakes)
Does anyone really believe that giving someone an extra queue in a Telstra call centre is going to alleviate so many years of social injustice in the minds of indigenous Australia, or more microcosmically, make someone of Aboriginal descent think twice before assaulting someone? Fuck no. But it's at least proactive.
Pro-racist (for lack of a more suitable term)
I can completely understand people's frustration at the apparent willingness to discard the theory 'an individual must take responsibility for themselves/their own actions' when it comes to the case of groups who receive 'special treatment'.
I'm someone who champions this concept freely, and I guess its that suggestion of inconsistency that means I can sympathise (though not agree) with many of the racist arguments in this thread.
As fervently as I believe aboriginal people deserve special treatment, I just as firmly believe that special treatment should not include absolution from abiding by general humanitarian principles. However some people posting in this thread seem to think that being harassed for money constitutes gravely impinging on their well-being...which I think is a bit too far. But I by no means think that their conduct should go unchecked or they should be exempt from laws which are actually designed to protect society.
As unfortunate as I believe it to be (in that there is simply nothing we can do to truly right those past wrongs) the onus is now on individuals in that group of people to overcome the admittedly enormous obstacles that their race has been presented with, and pursue and ideally achieve their ambitions and goals. Hopefully the privileges I wrote about earlier can aid in facilitating this, andeven the balance.
It's fucked that a group of people should have to lay claim to a past like they can, but unfortunately, as unproductive as it is to hate them (though somewhat understandable) it is just as unproductive for them to pre-emptively condemn themselves to a life of ill refute because of their race (though somewhat, and I believe more so, understandable).
A large number of successful indigenous australians are underrepresented in our community because of negatives stereotypes. People have a tendency to dwell on the negatives, whether for sensationalism or due to human nature's predisposition for negative reinforcement, but why-ever it happens, I think its a travesty that many people's first thought when they hear aborigine is a bad one.
To conclude my debate with myself, ambassadors to indigenous Australia should receive more recognition, the symptoms that are currently present within the Aboriginal community are representative of underlying issues of which Australia as a nation was the sole perpetrator, understanding and working towards a positive solution where both white and indigenous Australians can live together is proactive, hating on them for the sheer fact that some are guilty of unacceptable behaviour is ridiculous. Use that as a yardstick and I'd fucking hate everyone (and some do I suppose).
However, hating races for this reason is just futile - it achieves nothing.
Anti-racist
What I think many people who are racist towards Aboriginals fail to realise/acknowledge, as has probably been stated earlier, is that the stereotypical socially unacceptable behaviours so often attributed to them are a symptomatic (read:current) response to the mistreatment that generations upon generations of their people received and still do as evidenced in this thread(read: past and present).
It is for this reason that I consider any privilege, if you can even class it as that when compared with an era of complete abuse, extended to these people, is completely deserved, warranted, necessary and is 'the least we can do'.
I then further do not understand how people expect these privileges to immediately combat the aforementioned socially unacceptable behaviour, that yes, some aboriginal people do exhibit.
1. To me, regardless of the perpetrator, behaviour I don't accept is just that - unacceptable behaviour, not an indictment on a race. If anyone mistreats me, I reserve the right to judge them as an individual, but it's just completely redundant to paint everyone with the same brush.
Furthermore, understanding the social conditions that have led to these actions being/being perceived as prevalent is a step in the right direction to alleviate the problems they occur, rather than contributing to the vicious cycle of hate and exclusivity. By the same token, tarring white straight males (for example) with the term of racists is just as redundant IMO. People should be judged on their individual merits; when patterns occur in particular races, underlying problems should be evaluated and investigated.
2. The extra services extended to these races were not ever intended to directly remedy those behaviours - they are compensation that we as a nation (incorporating individuals, organisations and government) should and to some extent do, use to demonstrate our regret/apologies/wish for reconciliation to a group of people who our forefathers wronged (in the absence of a super-cool-machine that would undo all our mistakes)
Does anyone really believe that giving someone an extra queue in a Telstra call centre is going to alleviate so many years of social injustice in the minds of indigenous Australia, or more microcosmically, make someone of Aboriginal descent think twice before assaulting someone? Fuck no. But it's at least proactive.
Pro-racist (for lack of a more suitable term)
I can completely understand people's frustration at the apparent willingness to discard the theory 'an individual must take responsibility for themselves/their own actions' when it comes to the case of groups who receive 'special treatment'.
I'm someone who champions this concept freely, and I guess its that suggestion of inconsistency that means I can sympathise (though not agree) with many of the racist arguments in this thread.
As fervently as I believe aboriginal people deserve special treatment, I just as firmly believe that special treatment should not include absolution from abiding by general humanitarian principles. However some people posting in this thread seem to think that being harassed for money constitutes gravely impinging on their well-being...which I think is a bit too far. But I by no means think that their conduct should go unchecked or they should be exempt from laws which are actually designed to protect society.
As unfortunate as I believe it to be (in that there is simply nothing we can do to truly right those past wrongs) the onus is now on individuals in that group of people to overcome the admittedly enormous obstacles that their race has been presented with, and pursue and ideally achieve their ambitions and goals. Hopefully the privileges I wrote about earlier can aid in facilitating this, andeven the balance.
It's fucked that a group of people should have to lay claim to a past like they can, but unfortunately, as unproductive as it is to hate them (though somewhat understandable) it is just as unproductive for them to pre-emptively condemn themselves to a life of ill refute because of their race (though somewhat, and I believe more so, understandable).
A large number of successful indigenous australians are underrepresented in our community because of negatives stereotypes. People have a tendency to dwell on the negatives, whether for sensationalism or due to human nature's predisposition for negative reinforcement, but why-ever it happens, I think its a travesty that many people's first thought when they hear aborigine is a bad one.
To conclude my debate with myself, ambassadors to indigenous Australia should receive more recognition, the symptoms that are currently present within the Aboriginal community are representative of underlying issues of which Australia as a nation was the sole perpetrator, understanding and working towards a positive solution where both white and indigenous Australians can live together is proactive, hating on them for the sheer fact that some are guilty of unacceptable behaviour is ridiculous. Use that as a yardstick and I'd fucking hate everyone (and some do I suppose).
However, hating races for this reason is just futile - it achieves nothing.
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MoeBro said:
Haha, this thread is great.
Really, my opinion of an aborigine doesn't make me racist. I don't necessarily believe I, or my race or culture, is superior. We have enough of our own fuck ups, many of whom helped to create the situation a lot of aboriginal people find themselves in.
The fact is, they have their own communities that uphold their own set of laws (as ridiculous as they are) and have proven time and time again they are incapable of governing themselves. At least, when you compare it to our standard of law. They are plain not ready for modern society.
Now that's not to say it's their fault. We've brought it upon them, rightly or wrongly, and they obviously weren't ready for the adjustment. And perhaps never will be. Again, not racist, just matter of fact.
Each culture has their own unique outlook on life. Mine isn't necessarily the correct one - it's just the one I have. So I feel that I should be able to freely comment on my observations without the word 'racist' always being bandied about.
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zophen said:
look, I, and every other australian who's got half a brain is fully conversant with how much shit they've been through, we took their land, and took their babies and, and, and fucked them up the ass and we're all racists and bigots and assholes and yeah, I could keep going, but there comes a time when you've just gotta suck it up and deal with it, nothings going to miraculously change over night, its never going back to the way things were, so to dwell on the past is simply pointless, which is where I'm coming from you need to look to tomorrow rather than be pissed off about yesterday
and if you wanna use the logic about being pissed of retrospectively, then they should really be pissed off with the poms who came here in the first place and started it all.
B9
Bluelight Crew
^ OK it's my fault that you have an opinion of "help those that help themselves" but refuse to acknowledge the points addressed (best by mary poppins) by many other posters within the thread !
If I treated you like shit for generations would you aspire to be like me ?
I am not saying "oh it's so easy" but the attitude of" help yourself or fuck off" is going nowhere!
If I treated you like shit for generations would you aspire to be like me ?
I am not saying "oh it's so easy" but the attitude of" help yourself or fuck off" is going nowhere!
Mary Poppins
Bluelighter
I don't believe it's dwelling on the past, it's understanding and acknowledging it - and it's still not done across the board or enough IMO.
Maybe that sounds wannabe-politically-correct, but I can assure I'm anything but (though, some of my best friends are politically correct)
Maybe that sounds wannabe-politically-correct, but I can assure I'm anything but (though, some of my best friends are politically correct
)
Strawberry_lovemuffin
Bluelighter
Doppelganger said:I agree with this, I also agree that aborigines should be treated with respect from the community.
That may be a contradiction, but lets think of any, say, homeless person again... they're ALL treated poorly. This proves that it's not necessarily a racist thing, but rather that people look down upon those who don't appear to be contributing to society.
I don't think there's anything racist about recognizing that aborigines have higher poverty rates! And I definitely don't think it's racist to give them extra support as a result! It just seems some people in this thread are throwing around the term 'racist'... while ignoring, or at least failing to acknowledge/ mention that what's going on is a real crisis. I agree that many comments that appear racist have been made, but it seems the majority of the people who are screaming racist, have side-stepped the crisis.
You can be honest about a problem - and still have compassion! Despite the fact my previous posts made generalizations, acceptance of who they are is all I was aiming for.
[I also realize that this is a very defensive post, and that it's highly probable that nothing was directed at me
Goodness me, I haven't been paying enough attention to this thread but I'm totally with Doppleganger and Zephr and the others who believe that as much as we - rightly - should be helping, compensating, and renumerating our indigneous peoples for the absolute atrocities done to them...
That they, as a people, now need to stand up and start pulling themselves together and not shun the help of the "wealthy capitalists" (whether that help is late, misguided or plain condescending... it's still monetary help) just out of a sense of generational hurt and pride.
If a proud race like the Australian Aboriginals could survive and thrive for thousands of years without our interference, I don't see how they can't triumph over what has been done to them (like the Jews, for instance have) and survive and thrive now, now that there are a million programs and processes put in place to help them? Is pride worth THAT much? Your culture's demise now the world has changed? We introduced alcohol, but now there are free alcohol rehabilitation programs available. Social services, housing, education. We took away their children, but that was back in the 1800's when nobody knew any better. Now we offer free housing, schooling and social welfare programs - and justifiably so.
Maybe it's not enough. Perhaps the damage is too ingrained, and we really don't comprehend it... that's possible. I think everything the government does is justified and necessary, and we as a people should really be pretty humbled that we have not been ripped from our roots like they were. But time moves on and healing has to happen, somehow.
Perhaps I'm on the wrong track too, I hope I don't offend anyone because I don't mean to. That's just my thoughts.
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