Kratom 7-OH-Mitragynine and Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl

[mikesorrentinoe]

if we cant discuss vendors here - where does one find them or discuss them? We can say our favorite brand names though right?

 

[Bad.Rad.Brad7o]

U an find good vendors in reddit

 

[negrogesic]

Anyone else get mild dermatological allergy-like responses from 7-OH? Seems to cause some redness on my face, scalp and chest. Similar places i get redness from other allergies, like peanuts.

I notice it pops up when I start taking 7-OH and goes away shortly thereafter.

 

[negrogesic]

I've also noticed heavier and heavier "rebound" withdrawal after binges of 7-OH (pretty heavy, like 300mg over the course of two days). I take kratom daily, pretty high doses, but the day or two after a 2 day 300mg total 7-OH binge I feel very tired, depressed, alot of joint pain and lethargy. Regular leaf kratom or simple extracts don't help much, since of course 150mg/day of 7-OH must be equivalent to some unfathomable amount of kratom equivalent, like 150 grams of plant material.

Makes me not want to mess with 7-OH since the rebounds are getting so bad, and my daily plain leaf doesn't make much of a dent.

I'm glad 7-OH isn't cheaper, like say 50 cents per 15mg because I'd be popping them like tic tacs and wind up needing buprenorphine to get off them

*Just did the math on some extracts powders and theoretically it could be almost that cheap, but I'll still stay away

When I start consuming large doses of 7-OH I stop going to the gym, which is not good. Conversely however, I do tend to get alot done around the house, like stuff I've been putting off (like figuring out how to keep the mice from getting into my office -- which was a pain in the ass but I did it during 7-OH mania).

You know the kind of general malaise and fatigue you get after quiting kratom? That seems to occur after a 7-OH binge, despite taking kratom 24/7. It seems like it can take 3-4 days for me to get my energy back after a 7-OH binge, or longer depending on the binge length.

 

[Quasimoto]

Anyone else get mild dermatological allergy-like responses from 7-OH? Seems to cause some redness on my face, scalp and chest. Similar places i get redness from other allergies, like peanuts.

I notice it pops up when I start taking 7-OH and goes away shortly thereafter.

Yeah I recently had this after my latest pseudoindoxyl binge. For a week I thought it was bed bugs... but it got worse. Looked like eczema, itchy as fuck, on my forearms and lower legs. It stopped just a day or two after I quit taking pseudo and switched to 7-OH. But combined with the liver area pain and other signs of liver stress-- I considered it a sign of liver damage, not an allergic reaction. Kratom alkaloids seem to in rare cases cause hepatic cholangitis type symptoms. Also, I did much more in the past and never had this issue, it only recently started...

I'm glad 7-OH isn't cheaper

These new powders are pretty damn cheap dose wise...... but they also feel dirty. IDK. It all feel dirty to me now.

I've also noticed heavier and heavier "rebound" withdrawal after binges of 7-OH

I get acute depression from 7-OH, and afterwards. It's great for pain relief but horrible for a drug of abuse.

However I get insane rebound from psuedoindoxyl. Just 2-3 days of use will cause CRAZY comedown RLS that starts after just 6-8 hours. It' like hyper withdrawal. The withdrawal is surprisingly bad... but if you just do a rapid taper over 2 day this rebound doesn't really occur at all. It's pretty strange... weird fucking drug.

But I am overall really trying to quit these kratom alkaloids. They're bad news.

 

[pnillyg]

I recently acquired 7-oh tablets, a drink called hydroxie that’s also 7oh and some opms gold capsules as well as Kratom extract gummies (35mg) mitragyna , I take about 4-6gs 3 or so x per day but I’m the effects are diminishing. Taking regular powder on an empty stomach helps with effects but the nausea counters it. Would you suggest taking a higher dose after food or milk or stepping into the 7oh/extract catagory? I’m fairly new to kratom

 

[negrogesic]

But I am overall really trying to quit these kratom alkaloids. They're bad news.

Me too. Been fairly effective at reducing my use. But since I'm in benzo withdrawal, I tend to resort to 7-OH to cope with things like family events, work functions. Need to get better at using them more surgically for that purpose, not buying 30 15mg pills and using them in the days before and after said event.

Yeah I had a nasty rebound from a pseudoindoxyl binge, felt weird, strong restlessness yet severe fatigue. Was out of commission for a weekend.

I prefer the 7-OH anyhow, I like the mania.

And yes the powder extracts are cheaper, but when I have 7-OH in powder extract form the doses escalate. I remember buying a few grams and I started at 60mg, and thought damn, this stuff is strong, causing nodding etc. Next day I was dosing 300mg at a time. If anytime tachyphylaxis was the right word to use it would be with this shit.

 

[Quasimoto]

I recently acquired 7-oh tablets, a drink called hydroxie that’s also 7oh and some opms gold capsules as well as Kratom extract gummies (35mg) mitragyna , I take about 4-6gs 3 or so x per day but I’m the effects are diminishing. Taking regular powder on an empty stomach helps with effects but the nausea counters it. Would you suggest taking a higher dose after food or milk or stepping into the 7oh/extract catagory? I’m fairly new to kratom

Eating a light meal about 2 hours beforehand can help with the nausea. I'd be wary about getting into the extracts, it will ruin your tolerance and powder wont do anything anymore. The OPMS gold caps are just a regular a regular extract, the other pure alkaloid pills are worlds stronger (and one hell of an addiction).

 

[Quasimoto]

But since I'm in benzo withdrawal, I tend to resort to 7-OH to cope with things like family events, work functions.

Same here man, I swore I'd never get addicted to these pills again. I quit alcohol a few months ago which was a massive achievement for me, bought a couple of these to reward myself (and for the boredom). Stupid.

tachyphylaxis was the right word to use it would be with this shit.

I knew there was a word for that!

You know the kind of general malaise and fatigue you get after quiting kratom? That seems to occur after a 7-OH binge, despite taking kratom 24/7. It seems like it can take 3-4 days for me to get my energy back after a 7-OH binge, or longer depending on the binge length.

Yeah man pseudo really has a way to suck the joy out of everything. It really fucks with my dopamine. I can't feel joy from anything, even other drugs, for a long time after quitting. Even if I switch to copious amounts of 7-OH or other extracts, I get nothing.

 

[pnillyg]

Eating a light meal about 2 hours beforehand can help with the nausea. I'd be wary about getting into the extracts, it will ruin your tolerance and powder wont do anything anymore. The OPMS gold caps are just a regular a regular extract, the other pure alkaloid pills are worlds stronger (and one hell of an addiction).

So would going with high doses of regular powder work best/be safest? Does the “drunkenness” lessen when taking full spectrum extracts such as the gold OPMS? I’m going to save the 7-oh for my break through pain it seems

 

[Quasimoto]

So would going with high doses of regular powder work best/be safest? Does the “drunkenness” lessen when taking full spectrum extracts such as the gold OPMS? I’m going to save the 7-oh for my break through pain it seems

by drunkenness do you mean the wobbles? (dizziness, tremors, etc)

Full spectrum extracts can do that as well, but not pure mit. The wobbles come from bad quality kratom, it's one of the undesirable alkaloids.

 

[pnillyg]

by drunkenness do you mean the wobbles? (dizziness, tremors, etc)

Full spectrum extracts can do that as well, but not pure mit. The wobbles come from bad quality kratom, it's one of the undesirable alkaloids.

Understood. I’m new to kratom and from what I see it’s probably best I stay away from anything but powder, that being said my tolorence in the last two months has gone from 4g doses 2x per day to 6-8g doses 3-4c per day so I feel I should stop otherwise I may end up in the 50gpd range in no time so if you have any suggestions I’m all ears. I’ve heard rotating strains, taking grapefruit juice, and a few other things

 

[negrogesic]

Same here man, I swore I'd never get addicted to these pills again. I quit alcohol a few months ago which was a massive achievement for me, bought a couple of these to reward myself (and for the boredom). Stupid.

Yeah I never thought I'd get physically dependent again (been through high dose full blown complete psychosis benzo withdrawal twice, the last time being over a decade ago).

For the past 5 years or so I've only taken benzos for stressful situations, my girlfriend's family gatherings, maybe a total of 10 times a year, and generally using etizolam.

But last November a series of stressful events occured, followed by the holidays, and boom I was hooked on daily benzos again, to my disbelief. Went through all my etizolam, then my pyrazolam, then my bromazolam, and after running out of that, with great apprehension and sorrow, I had to break into my flubromazolam stash (the weapons grade, micrograms range benzo). Though I have a large supply of it (due to its extreme potency), I finally sucked it up and saw a doctor and got him hesitantly to script me 40mg/day of diazepam. The transition from flubromazolam to diazepam was painful (like actually physically painful, I've never experienced this level of severe physical pain from benzo withdrawal, I could barely walk; must be due to the extreme myorelaxant effects of flubromazolam or some unknown action).

Down to 16mg of diazepam, hope to quit by January. I told my girlfriend we're going to have to make something up insofar as me not being able to see her family for the holidays, which I'm sure her mom is gonna shit her pants about.

But its crazy, I didn't expect to have a benzo addiction ever again, unless I was terminally ill or etc. This time around the doses involved are way lower, but I frankly never fully recovered from the benzo withdrawal I went through a decade ago. I got better but never quite got 100% better. Maybe 96% better, if that. But I was never the same.

Two rounds of heavy dose, long-term benzo abuse alterations is enough to alter genetic expression of GABAA receptors, leading to reduced receptor sensitivity and diminished efficacy of endogenous GABA. Compared to other drugs, like opioids or stimulants, benzodiazepines are particularly hazardous insofar as the risk of long-term epigenetic changes to the brain. Even alcohol, though more toxic to the body as whole, doesn't alter GABAA expression to the extent that's benzos do due to low specificity for GABAA. In fact, the NMDA antagonism of ethanol might provide some neuroprotective effects against long-term downregulation of GABAA receptors. Benzos on the other hand are extremely specific to a very specific little pocket of on the GABAA receptor complex (alpha/gamma conjunction), which eventually can alter expression. Of course, alcoholism is horrible and is worse in many ways, being a more chronic disease.

Yet despite knowing all that I know, despite being careful for yeats, here I am again, doing more irreversible damage, though thankfully these doses are nothing compared to years ago. But I'm not walking away unscathed.

Flumazenil shows some potential to upregulate, but generally speaking I'm fucked, until maybe 20 years from now when AGI AI leverages quantum computers to discover some form of restorative gene therapy.

Anyway, back on topic, due to my benzo taper, I've found myself using 7-OH where I once would have used etizolam -- as an anxiolytic to cope with situations I don't want to be in (work related events, family gatherings, etc). It works OK, but I find myself using way too much, and also abusing it the day before and after said event. I've already got a kratom habit, but I'm finding that these 7-OH binges are causing increasingly nasty rebounds.

Also, I'm sure I looked more fucked up showing up at theses events on 90mg of 7-OH (rather than 2mg of etizolam), with heavy eye lids, pinned pupils and etc. My brother-in-law even texted me after one such event asking if I was "ok" (everyone remembers when I was junky a decade ago, so are quick to suspect I might be back at it).

 

[JackARoe]

EDIT: My bad, I thought this was my thread

I read these threads with such interest. But I will say this, I am glad I am just on plain leaf kratom and have not (will not) try the new fangled products. Just trying to taper off plain leaf. It really is not that bad, just annoying.

Thanks, for always updating the threads. There are a few of these Kratom threads. I am like a PITA to people when I hound them to update. And you always seem to.

As an aside I too do not know how people access what they do. But have been lucky enough for people to vet what they have and every once in a while send me a sample. But since we can't discuss vending I will just be empathic to the same plight.

However an area of confusion for me is when a doctor prescribes both a stimulant and depressant. ?? I guess that is somewhat normal, I just get confused at the opposites. Seems to be heading into Elvis Presley territory with a laundry list of prescriptions I have seen posted.

 

[Didgital]

Anyone else get mild dermatological allergy-like responses from 7-OH? Seems to cause some redness on my face, scalp and chest. Similar places i get redness from other allergies, like peanuts.

never, but I don't think I've taken it in amounts that you have. I wonder what could be causing that... and I wonder if it's a bad product.

Yeah I never thought I'd get physically dependent again (been through high dose full blown complete psychosis benzo withdrawal twice, the last time being over a decade ago).

Man i hope you can get a handle on any dependency. I do want to say I'm finding your and @Quasimoto words and observations very valuable.

I have made quite a bit of the 7-OH at this point, and I really don't want it to hurt people. I do think it (if made properly) is a much safer alternative to street opioids, and very effective painkiller. I haven't known anyone personally to really go deep with it so it's good to hear about the darker sides.

I have taken quite a bit of it too, but I don't take kratom frequently, certainly not daily. I was worried the 7-OH may be more addictive than the plant itself but I'm not sure of that even after seeing it take over the market. I try to not take it 2 days in a row, I try and keep it 2x a week max. I've never felt any sort of hang over or withdrawls thankfully.

 

[Quasimoto]

but I don't think I've taken it in amounts that you have. I wonder what could be causing that... and I wonder if it's a bad product.

The original pseudo that came out were the mysteriously "W" and "R" stamped pills, I went through several hundreds of them over several months and never developed the skin rash symptoms I get with these new pills. I experienced the rash almost immediately after going through my first 5-10 or so of these new pills.

I think that points to horrendously shitty lab work and major impurities.

I have made quite a bit of the 7-OH at this point, and I really don't want it to hurt people. I do think it (if made properly) is a much safer alternative to street opioids, and very effective painkiller. I haven't known anyone personally to really go deep with it so it's good to hear about the darker sides.

7-OH is so much more forgiving and easier to handle, and for me, much less desire to abuse it. It leans closer towards kratom's "safety and ceiling effect", where I feel pseudo leans closer to hard drugs.

I wouldn't feel bad about it man, somebody was always going to make it, and people will continue making it until it's scheduled.

 

[Didgital]

The original pseudo that came out were the mysteriously "W" and "R" stamped pills

very familiar with those exact presses. There were also "G" stamped presses, and one of them was supposed to be a mix of the 7-OH and the psuedoindoxyl

I also got transdermal patches from same manufacturers, the 7-OH was a red gel patch, and the psuedo was black, so I know these folks weren't really purifying shit and at the time there was no psuedoindoxyl standard commercially available so I have serious questions on how they were able to quantify that they were putting 15mg of psuedoindoxyl into those presses. *The standard has since become available via caymanchemical

The presses all had different effects. The "R" which Im sure was the 7-OH was definitely the strongest and heaviest. The white and green presses I'm not sure I ever identified which was a mix or the "pure" psuedoindoxyl, but the presses were supposed to be modeled after the vein color that everyone jabbers about. Red vein leaf being the stronger heavier, the white vein being the most stimulating/energetic.

It's all bullshit marketing. These manufacturers aren't purifying anything and don't quote me on this, either the same people manufacturing these G, R, W pressed pills or someone very very closely associated, got nailed by the FDA for selling tianeptine in gas stations. Just trying to show you the moral character of the people involved.

Since then it hasn't gotten much better. There's about 1000 new players in the game and you can guarantee most of them are just following some recipe that has likely been repeatedly been sold for profit (despite it being covered under a patent).

If you start seeing Red Ohm listed as an ingredient, that is the crude unpurified reaction mixture after converting mitragynine to 7-OH. Most of these companies are selling the crude reaction mixture, and most probably don't even realize that it's a specific heterodimer of mitragyine and a related compound. I'm less worried about that particular heterodimer as an impurity because there is evidence showing cleavage of similar heterodimers happens in acidic environments ie stomach acid. Look at acid hydrolysis of voacamine, it's a heterodimer of voacangine and voabasine connected by a single bond in the same position that these oxidized mitragynine dimers form.

So just a hunch but the impurity is breaking back down into mitragynine in the stomach.

Google "mitragynine oxone" and even more google "mitragynine oxone patent"

 

[Quasimoto]

Maybe unrelated, but I noticed these new pills also give me pretty bad indigestion/heartburn sometimes. Which is not a normality for me, both from diet issues or drugs/kratom pills. That's a new issue as well.

ALL of the pills have been sketchy and feel unclean... but kratom alkaloids themselves have always felt a bit innately dirty to me, due to their affinous promiscuity in the brain. The "W"s were just consistently very strong and did not have the skin rash issues. Also, I think it was the "R"s that were the mix of pseudo/7-OH. I never saw or tried the "G"s.

The only company I've seen that seemed to have consistency, pure product, and respect for their customers is 7ohmz, which was ironically the first fully branded product. (Delete the name if too close to sourcing... just feels kinda silly at this point, because if you google "buy 7-OH" a billion links come up for these products, or you just walk into a vape shop and see them. Last time I was on staff everyone seemed fine with posting names of kratom powder brands, as long as we didn't post the websites to buy it from)

 

[Quasimoto]

If you start seeing Red Ohm listed as an ingredient, that is the crude unpurified reaction mixture after converting mitragynine to 7-OH.

Yeah I was wondering what that was... some company listing one product as 7-hydroxymitragynine, and the other has "Red OH"... they were the same price and supposedly both 7-OH according to reddit, but the "Red OH" was inferior and felt dirtier according to reddit.

Now it makes sense...

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

Maybe unrelated, but I noticed these new pills also give me pretty bad indigestion/heartburn sometimes. Which is not a normality for me, both from diet issues or drugs/kratom pills. That's a new issue as well.

ALL of the pills have been sketchy and feel unclean... but kratom alkaloids themselves have always felt a bit innately dirty to me, due to their affinous promiscuity in the brain. The "W"s were just consistently very strong and did not have the skin rash issues. Also, I think it was the "R"s that were the mix of pseudo/7-OH. I never saw or tried the "G"s.

The only company I've seen that seemed to have consistency, pure product, and respect for their customers is 7ohmz, which was ironically the first fully branded product. (Delete the name if too close to sourcing... just feels kinda silly at this point, because if you google "buy 7-OH" a billion links come up for these products, or you just walk into a vape shop and see them. Last time I was on staff everyone seemed fine with posting names of kratom powder brands, as long as we didn't post the websites to buy it from)

I loved those ‘R’s … maybe a little too much to be honest.

I’ll admit I went a little hard this year on and off with 7oh & Pseudo