Phenethylamines [25X-NBOMe Subthread] Comparisons & General Discussion

[Erny]

Saved from the sinking esothericpharma.org project, to be added to the image of iodine

Do people recommend 2CI for any particular reason ?
I never tried it before because of the trip reports I had read describing heavy stimulation & this made me fear that it may result in an experience not that dissimilar to DOB a drug which I found was quite unpleasant.

I do not give high value to 2C's in general, though they may have their uses. Their nature favours easy experiences with light or medium doses that may be beneficial in certain situations and environements where tripping hard wouldn't be great or you just don't want to. They may also be a fine choice as a substance to offer to a person not very familliar with psychedelics.

I consider huge dose 2C-X trips to be an almost complete waste of time. In the case of 2C-I it means any usefulness of this chemical ends at around 30-35 mgs, going higher isn't interesting enough to try, and also not very pleasant as it was mentioned few times in this thread already. People who have a taste for phenylethylamine psychedelics usually know that DOX or mescaline are generally much more useful in the nieche of intense high dose trips, and it would be fair to say that 2C-X-NBOMe group of chemicals is also much more rewarding there.

I personally do not like 2C-I very much, I see the other two halogens 2C-B and 2C-C to be more pleasant and worthwhile materials, and would probably name 2C-D as my favourite 2C-chemical. Still, I explored 2C-I in the past enough to develop a view of what it can offer. For what 30 mgs may be worth taking - I believe are night trips in visually rich natural environements. Though 25 mgs may be enough for this case and overall almost similar to 30.

2C-I visual effects are manifesting best in places where surroundings are not visually boring and I find nighttime to be more spectacular than daytime for it. Fairly high dose demands there should better be no people nearby other than those you chose to trip with. Dry summer weather is probably the most comfortable weather for outdoor trips, although 2C-I especially favours winter outdoor trips in a suitable natural setting. Surely I meant winters that yield a snow cover high enough to cover the ground and surroundings completely with air temperatures normally staing below zero deg Celsius. Winters in a subtropic climate probably do not favour outdoor winter trips much. I believe the best conditions for such event are during or shortly after snowfalls with air temperature in the 0 - -5 deg C range. A notable stimulation 2C-I often gives that people here and on BL complained about turns into benefit in such environement.

30 mg dose might yield few of the "solaris" effects, like moments when time is percieved as if gradually slowing down to the point of almost freezing. These are actually short in duration but feel rather long, the whole phenomena is synaesthetic, and also realistic enough to send shivers down your spine. The "magic" of a moderately intense mushroom trip should almost certainly be present in this dose and such setting. Sense of unreality and non-reality may also be there but most probably faint and not too special yet. Around 80 mgs of 2C-I are needed to get familliar with Solaris at it's full. Which is a bad idea, while a good idea would be to reach it with a high enough 2C-I-NBOMe dose. 7-8 mgs of DOI are also rich on "Solaris", but like 2C-I are also a little too heavy on the body. More troubling than any physiological discomfort to be found there is the duration of effects. Some people seem to have something like predisposition to suffer a phenomenon when DOI or DOB effects duration would grow up linearly with the dosage increase, starting from some specific point. Others do not get in such trouble however. I have never experienced this, but for someone else the dose mentioned may be enough to reach baseline only at the third day after the intake. DOI trips lasting from 48 hours and up to five days make those unfortunate enough to experience them to damn everything, altogether with the peculiar drug that made this possible.


2C-I seem to be one of the best 2C's to choose for an intense trip in some natural setting. There are other psychedelics however that are suitable in this case, some of which I believe may be more rewarding than 2C-I, like DOX or mushrooms. The one that I find far more special than anything 2C-I has to offer is DMT with MAOI at daytime.

Could you elucidate on the "solaris effects" a bit? I'm unfamiliar with that terminology.

This "terminology" was born spontaneously out of discussions such as this one here, I suppose no one calls it this way. Still, it is the name of NBOMe-2C-I as a "street drug", and at some point I realised that it deserves it.

There is nothing special about psychedelics making everything to appear "unreal", yet what may be experienced in these iodine PEAs is to be called exceptional, an almost realistic sense of immersion into different reality. They are also very powerful hallucinogens at highest dosages, one of the most powerful among PEAs. I wrote it is "emotionally hollow" at the beginning of the experience. Actually, "astonishingly hollow", yet the sharper is the difference with all that follows. If it follows like it may happen in 2C-I-NBOMe. In DOI it may not go anywhere and remain just that: an ice-cold, mesmerising void. Still, a powerful experience on it's own.

 

[Solipsis]

Thanks very much. There was a misunderstanding though since I did not try to compare these to 2C-X compounds. What I was comparing was a trend or pattern that sets them apart among one another. So perhaps 2C-I, DOI and 25I are not that similar, but within the range of 2C-X, 2C-N has an erratic body load potential as does DON seen within the DOX range.
You shone a light on my question, it more or less fits the basics of my expectations although I see you consider 25I having potential and not having a particular knack for producing nasty feelings whereas I thought it would belong with 25B and perhaps 25N.
Also I was starting to regard 25C as quite a gem - which in certain terms I'm sure it is - but you make a valid point that, like 2C-C, it may be comfortable but it is just a little too far removed from the bliss factor (the analogy to the 2C-X derivate is apparently valid here in this particular instance). It seems to venture into bliss territory means also to risk being thrown out of whack with Shakespearian heavy lightness.

Things like 25iP will stay on the shelf for me. Next up is 25C. But I trust that 25D and DOM are where the true profundity has more charge.
Sorry for tracking off-topic, I am ready to moderate this tightly - but better to do it in more retrospect.

Not to kiss ass, but your experience with these experimental compounds is valuable Erny and I'm sure it does help us a lot. As long as we all try not to make this information into an easy instructional menu to allow retards to try and make choices while way in over their heads. Not elitist, but in light of HR.

 

[tryp2fun]

From a medicinal chemistry standpoint, it makes no sense that 25B would have more physical problems than 25C or 25I. There should be a continuum in going down the periodic table in the halogen series. The properties of the drug are due to the electronic and steric properties of the molecule. As you go down the periodic table from Cl to Br to I, there is a small reduction in electronegativity and a fairly large increase in van der Waals radius. In the 2C-X series, this is manifest as an increase in body load from Cl<Br<I, which I think most people agree on. In the 25X series, the NBOMe is responsible for a significant portion of the binding affinity, which is why there is very little difference in the dosage with different halogens, in contrast to the 2C-Xs. Hence, one would expect there to be less variation in physical properties in the NBOMes. In my abeit limited experience with NBOMes, 25I was the one with the most body load (sweating and nausea during come up), while 25B and 25C were pretty similar and more comfortable. Now NO₂ is an entirely different beast, both electronically and sterically, and I am not surprised that 2C-N and 25N can have unpleasant physical effects.

 

[Solipsis]

Certainly a valid argument, but what do you make of the DOX series in this context? Does DOB not have the worst body issues, or is DOI (another period further down in the table) worse in this respect? From what info I have it sounds like DOB is worse than DOI, while 2C-I is worse than 2C-B.
I think the problem is with approaching this too much as a linear equation. What if DOB provides a more selective pharmacophore in the peripheral system where the cause lies for stimulation and vasoconstriction / or for adrenoceptors in general for instance?
If we want that answer I suggest we look at some binding affinities for certain receptor subtypes and see if something stands out that fits the pattern. Regarding some effects or properties, the NBOMe series seems to show more resemblance to the DOX series than the 2C-X series, if any comparison is even appropriate anymore at this stage... but 25D is said to be quite DOM-like and quite frankly other descriptions also remind of their DOX counterpart. Though Erny says that iodine is not typical across the board. It's quite confusing, some patterns when comparing NBOMe profiles give the impression that at least some analogy can be made while at other times this is either considered dead wrong or there is an anti-pattern / mirroring pattern. Combine those and it creates more possibility for this all to make sense in the end. (The reason again being that this is not a linear equation).

Am I off here? What do you think?

 

[tryp2fun]

Certainly a valid argument, but what do you make of the DOX series in this context? Does DOB not have the worst body issues, or is DOI (another period further down in the table) worse in this respect? From what info I have it sounds like DOB is worse than DOI, while 2C-I is worse than 2C-B.
I think the problem is with approaching this too much as a linear equation. What if DOB provides a more selective pharmacophore in the peripheral system where the cause lies for stimulation and vasoconstriction / or for adrenoceptors in general for instance?
If we want that answer I suggest we look at some binding affinities for certain receptor subtypes and see if something stands out that fits the pattern. Regarding some effects or properties, the NBOMe series seems to show more resemblance to the DOX series than the 2C-X series, if any comparison is even appropriate anymore at this stage... but 25D is said to be quite DOM-like and quite frankly other descriptions also remind of their DOX counterpart. Though Erny says that iodine is not typical across the board. It's quite confusing, some patterns when comparing NBOMe profiles give the impression that at least some analogy can be made while at other times this is either considered dead wrong or there is an anti-pattern / mirroring pattern. Combine those and it creates more possibility for this all to make sense in the end. (The reason again being that this is not a linear equation).

Am I off here? What do you think?

Hard to say. I don't know much about the DOXs, since I have no experience with them and I have no intention of trying them (well, maybe DOM if the chance arises). There don't seem to be any controlled studies to confirm that DOB is worse than DOI in physical effects. The reports are all anecdotal and we don't even know for sure the identity of the drug in the trials. So I think the nonlinear effects are questionable. I do know that the alpha-methyl does indeed contribute to binding to 5HT2a receptors, and there does seem to be a steric effect of large substituents at the 4-position of the aromatic ring in the DOX series that is absent in the 2C-Xs. The steric effect of 4-substituents seems also an issue with the 25Xs, so in this way they are more similar to the DOXs than the 2C-Xs.

 

[skillet]

I do know that the alpha-methyl does indeed contribute to binding to 5HT2a receptors, and there does seem to be a steric effect of large substituents at the 4-position of the aromatic ring in the DOX series that is absent in the 2C-Xs.

What compounds are you thinking of when you say that?

Also, Ray's paper showed DOB was the most selective of the drugs tested, so it might be suprising if DOI actually had less side-effects.

 

[Solipsis]

This whole bit will be modded (moved) when this tangent topic dies down... but until then, Skillet... selectivity says more about quantitative effect profiles, right? while it may be possible that something like DOI incidentally has a qualitative affinity profile that causes more noticeable side effects. But maybe it doesn't work like that. This may seem rather vague of me, I must refer to some affinity tables and come back to you.

 

[skillet]

Yeah, thinking about it, I was probably talking crap. I guess it's possible that some of the receptors DOI has higher affinity for could actually counteract side-effects of DOB, or something like that.

 

[tryp2fun]

What compounds are you thinking of when you say that?

Also, Ray's paper showed DOB was the most selective of the drugs tested, so it might be suprising if DOI actually had less side-effects.

The alpha-methyl of the DOXs is what I was referring to.

I think that some of the data in Ray's paper is questionable.

 

[skillet]

Well yeah, but it sounded like you were saying the steric tolerance at the 4-position is different between the 2C's and DOX's, I don't see any evidence to suggest that.

I'd have thought most of the results in Ray's paper are sound, though there was mention in the thread about it that Roth didn't trust one of the technicians performing the assays, so maybe you're right.

 

[tryp2fun]

Well yeah, but it sounded like you were saying the steric tolerance at the 4-position is different between the 2C's and DOX's, I don't see any evidence to suggest that.

I'd have thought most of the results in Ray's paper are sound, though there was mention in the thread about it that Roth didn't trust one of the technicians performing the assays, so maybe you're right.

I was saying that the steric demands of the DOXs and 2C-Xs are a little different. While there is relatively little difference in the effective doses of the DOXs, i.e., DOC~DOB~DOI, clearly 2C-C<2C-B<2C-I. Furthermore, there is no significant increase in the activity with length of alkyl group in the DOXs, DOM~DOEt~DOPr, while 2C-D<<2C-E<2C-P. Finally, DOiP seems to be much lower activity than the others, >25 mgs according to PIHKAL, but recent reports here suggest 2C-iP is active at around 10-15 mg. So, with a branched 4-substituent, the 2C-X is more potent than the DOX. How would you explain these effects if not steric? The positioning of the alpha-methyl must be affected by the 4-substituent if it is too bulky.

 

[skillet]

Yeah there's definitely less of a difference with the DOX's. DOPR does sound a bit more potent than DOM though. DOET is a bit of an anomaly, the doses listed in pihkal are really low, it doesn't seem to get psychedelic until >12mg, like 2C-E I guess. I wasn't aware of DOIP/2C-IP.

So yeah, steric might partly account for it, I can think of another factor that might play a part - DOX's are generally stronger agonists, ie. the alpha-methyl assists receptor activation. So the relevance of a good sized/shaped 4-substituent ia reduced in the DOX's.

 

[Altered Carbon]

Anyone able to comment on some 25c and 25i comparisons? 25i would probably be my next move after 25c but if it carries more negative side effects I doubt I'd bother.

I've tried both a few times.

Comparison:

25c-nbome 1200ug buccaly: Amazing visuals, warm body high, good 4 hour duration. Thought processes remain clear, and creative thinking is somewhat enhanced (good for doing assignments). Come up was fast. Within 20 mins of applying tab to gum, the carpet was morphing into itself, walls breathing.

25i-nbome 1500ug buccaly: Amazing shift in consciousness. Visuals more subtle than 25c, but the shit in thinking processes is extreme. Its a good visit to the edge of conscious awareness. A feeling of being watched, not by a person, but a being from another dimension possibly. Totally introspective and empathetic. The visuals are just a minor part of the effect. The strongest effect is the change in though processes.

25c is the 'experiencer' where you can lose youself and just have fun. While 25i is the 'perciever' where you can analyze situations and consciousness and events endlessly.

I didn't notice the "negative side effects" you refer to though. At smaller 350ug bucal doses 25i provides a light stimulant feeling for about 4-5 hours, and slight increase in empathy. Good for social and conversational situations.

 

[blowjay]

That is what I like to hear about the 25I, increased analysis is a fucking beautiful thing. Nothing much to add to this as I have not tried anything more than C. Will update upon trial of others.

 

[wiffz]

comparison C D and I nbome

hello



as you may know, when using 2c-p you have a ca three day tolerance -> one has to wait a couple of days before doing that again without suffering tolerance. compared to 2c-e the latter doesnt have this (afaik). SWIMs cat was able to do this repeatedly without getting tolerance which may cause one to stop and wait. so (SWIMs cat came to the conclusion that) there may be differences in regard to tolerance buildup. now looking at 25C, D and I NBOME, please say.. which one has, compared to the others, a LOW tolerance build-up? live long and prosper

 

[freedstar]

2cp and 2ce both cause about a weeks tolerence like most psychedelics do.

I've found 25D and 25C tolerence is definitely more than a week. More like 2. There probably isint much difference between them.


EDIT: You can take the same dose of 2ce two days in a row and not feel diminished effects, but that doesn't mean its not happening.

 

[cryptix420]

the NBOMe series has a very strong acute tolerance build up. You'd be better off sticking to a 2c.

 

[LogicSoDeveloped]

I definitely dosed 25mg of 2c-e two days in a row and didn't really notice any difference...I mean maybe a little but nothing extraordinary. Possibly because I generally judge trips based on mental depth and 2c-e didn't have any of that in the 5 times I've taken it at doses ranging from 20-25mg orally along with like 1 5mg insufflated experience.

 

[Bi0hazardOpeth]

I thought the swimming pool was closed. Good questions thought =)

 

[Jesusgreen]

We don't SWIM here. It doesn't protect you at all, and makes your posts annoying and hard to read. We also don't talk about cats or parrots or any of that other rubbish

The NBOMe series have just as much (in most peoples opinion, more) tolerance build up as the 2Cs.

If you're looking for something you can do every day or every few days, psychedelics are really not for you.