Multiple US Federal Agencies involved in supplying weapons to Mexican cartels

Even if I try to think of far-out, unlikely scenarios I still can't come up with *obviously* better ways to conduct them that there's no doubt the ATF would've thought of. Let's say the guns were tagged so they could be tracked, that'd make more sense than simply letting them walk and hoping we find them (or conducting surveillance on those who went to phoenix). Wouldn't make sense, since we could do the same thing with much higher quality weapons that are not available in a local gun shop, and are the kind we'd expect to see in the higher 5% of the org's. Tracking AK's/AR's is pointless, all you'd find is regular, low-level enforcers/traffickers who're easy as shit to find w/o any programs such as this.

I'm all for a cool/interesting backstory here, but it just wreaks of a bad op gone wrong that everyone wants to bury.
 
<<<sry, an impromtu celebration-day w/ some friends has fuct my memory for today - do we have *any* counts of the total weapons that the ATF did/may-have released? Even wild-speculation is fine, I'm honestly unsure if it's 50, 500, or 5k rifles. No # under many-thousands would really make a difference to what I've posted, just curious if anyone has any stabs at a guess here... I just want a rough-idea of the magnitude of this>>>
 
SangerRainsford said:
<<<sry, an impromtu celebration-day w/ some friends has fuct my memory for today - do we have *any* counts of the total weapons that the ATF did/may-have released? Even wild-speculation is fine, I'm honestly unsure if it's 50, 500, or 5k rifles. No # under many-thousands would really make a difference to what I've posted, just curious if anyone has any stabs at a guess here... I just want a rough-idea of the magnitude of this>>>
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I'd like to know also. I'm guessing it was loads of guns or the agents wouldn't have went public.
 
SangerRainsford said:
You're the only one who's used the ommelette analogy, dude.<unless someone used it in an article and I missed it... I think you started using it after I said that gunwalking is similar to an undercover participating in drug-deals>
The supervisers weren't "warned", again I may've missed it in an article, if so lemme know who said it. There were 2 (newb) agents who kept complaining to their supervisors, and were told to stfu. They eventually went public.

We've already gone around and around tho on why they may've done this *besides* simple gun-walking, on one of these pages I mentioned which cartels/where this kind of action could've been done, but in the end it just seems the ATF could not make money from fast/furious, they couldn't really help supply things better than status quo (since the arms were in such small #'s / it's far easier to purchase in Mx anyways), so we're really left w/ an 'occam's razor' situation IMO: they tried gunwalking in a situation where it was f'ing pointless, and the fallout was huge. They look like clowns because of it (esp w/ the ICE agents who were ambushed, one killed because of a serial# from one of the pheonix guns), and are stonewalling the investigations.
/it'd be more interesting if we found out they were favoring cartels, or just calentamiento las plazas (stir up shit to draw attn to a situated group in a spec. area), but it genuinely looks like a poorly planned, and even more poorly executed, tactic :/ And of course, after such a failure, it'd almost be expected that other agencies would help cover up the damage, hence other agencies' involvements.
I'm curious to hear some valid ideas as to another specific reason this went down, it's just that any I can think of are far less likely than simple incompetence. I cannot think of one solid reason this tactic would have benefitted us (even if the benefit would have pissed people off - there's just really nothing positive that can be gleaned from the approach ATF used)
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ommelette analogy was what was said to the agents when they confronted supervisors about a rise in violence since the program began, and that weapons their had been used left and right at crime scenes... Erm, what the hell was the point? It doesn't make sense...
 
I think the 'omelette' analogy was a poorly phrased attempt at the 'undercover agent' analogy <as in undercover drug-deals>. Of course it's easy to pick apart the particular analogy they used, but the point is their justification was "we gotta let some guns go, in order to track where they end up". That's something we can discuss/debate, insofar as a strategy(tactic? meh), but that is what gun-walking is. I honestly can't say I'm swayed one way or another on gunwalking in such a case*, but I can say this appears to be nothing more than a supervisor allowing gunwalking in a situation/manner that was clearly retarded.
(*=I'm obvi not swayed at gunwalking in THIS exact manner. If the two agents kept quiet about it, I'm sure this would have been the supervisor getting chewed out by his superiors for a terribly constructed plan. Because the two newb.agents went to the press, it's now got the potential to look bad, and other agencies are acting the status-quo: trying to close the lid on it. BUT, *if* the op was conducted in another way**, I'd be all for it.
**=maybe something like using high-tech RFID or other tracking means attached to some missiles or heavier armaments, sold through reputable black-market dealers, within Mx, to higher-level enforcers. Then I can see it as justifiable, as the weapons could trace back to higher-level compounds. But even releasing 10k full-auto machine guns is 'tarded, since they'll just go to the lower-echelon folk(enforcers/traffickers) who we can easily track anyways, and who're largely irrelevant. The mission has failure/incompetance stamped all over it, but I just cannot think of a **SINGLE** plausible "conspiracy"/alternative theory. I'd love to hear someone's, even if just for conversation's sake, but it just seems like a dumb attempt that would've otherwise gone down as a stupid op, but it was made public by two <1yr agents and now it's more about keeping the dumb-op under wraps than chewing out the superior who made the call in the 1st place..
 
SangerRainsford said:
I think the 'omelette' analogy was a poorly phrased attempt at the 'undercover agent' analogy <as in undercover drug-deals>. Of course it's easy to pick apart the particular analogy they used, but the point is their justification was "we gotta let some guns go, in order to track where they end up". That's something we can discuss/debate, insofar as a strategy(tactic? meh), but that is what gun-walking is. I honestly can't say I'm swayed one way or another on gunwalking in such a case*, but I can say this appears to be nothing more than a supervisor allowing gunwalking in a situation/manner that was clearly retarded.
(*=I'm obvi not swayed at gunwalking in THIS exact manner. If the two agents kept quiet about it, I'm sure this would have been the supervisor getting chewed out by his superiors for a terribly constructed plan. Because the two newb.agents went to the press, it's now got the potential to look bad, and other agencies are acting the status-quo: trying to close the lid on it. BUT, *if* the op was conducted in another way**, I'd be all for it.
**=maybe something like using high-tech RFID or other tracking means attached to some missiles or heavier armaments, sold through reputable black-market dealers, within Mx, to higher-level enforcers. Then I can see it as justifiable, as the weapons could trace back to higher-level compounds. But even releasing 10k full-auto machine guns is 'tarded, since they'll just go to the lower-echelon folk(enforcers/traffickers) who we can easily track anyways, and who're largely irrelevant. The mission has failure/incompetance stamped all over it, but I just cannot think of a **SINGLE** plausible "conspiracy"/alternative theory. I'd love to hear someone's, even if just for conversation's sake, but it just seems like a dumb attempt that would've otherwise gone down as a stupid op, but it was made public by two <1yr agents and now it's more about keeping the dumb-op under wraps than chewing out the superior who made the call in the 1st place..
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It's been rumored for months before those two agents came out. Before then, it was all "unsubstanciated".

Then the agents obviously came out because the practice was stupid, illegal, and highly ineffective, and they had been informing supervisors who turned a blind eye to the statistics.

As far as conspiracy theory goes... I have no clue what the alterior motive here would be. But the facts don't make enough sense ATM IMO. Guessing would just be speculation.
 
It kinda makes sense in a real sinister way. I mean the U.S. is broke as shit, plus they're cutting funding to a lot of different military programs. Theyll probly take any money they can get since we basically export next to nothing
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20064443-10391695.html

CBS News has learned that the DEA has confiscated a stash of assault rifles connected to ATF's Fast and Furious operation. It's a major seizure of weapons in the controversial ATF case that's the subject of at least two investigations. Sources say it's believed the suspects intended to take the guns to Mexico.


Sources say DEA accidentally came upon the guns while stopping suspects in an unrelated case in the Phoenix area on April 13th. When agents stopped at least two suspects, they found two giant garbage cans full of dozens of AK-47 type weapons wrapped in cellophane. Sources tell CBS News that a trace on the first weapon showed it was purchased in Nov. 2009 by a suspect in ATF's Fast and Furious case.


Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20064443-10391695.html#ixzz1MsZkVDQA
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severely etarded said:
...that we know of....

Really wouldn't surprise me if that's where the cartels have been getting American RPG launchers & high powered rifles...
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It'd surprise me.
The atf could very well have other operations doing that (or far worse), but even then the reality seems to be that the 'small explosives' class seems dominated by ghetto/older handgrendades (standard fragment/pineapple styles), and the small / shootable grenades all seem to be mexican military gear.
/the atf doing the most for the cartels' arms wouldn't seem to necessitate any local gunshops :\
 
This isn't the first time something like this has happened. They provided aid to drug traffickers in the Iran contra scandal and have probably gotten away with these kinds of things without anyone finding out. I am not surprised at all that this happened, even though it sounds like the kind of thing one would expect more from a third world country.Just another way to keep the war on drugs going. Gotta keep the war on drugs going even if many innocent people are murdered and many/most of the people who die of overdoses/drug reactions would not be dead if drugs were legal.

The hypocrisy is astounding, though sadly nothing unusual. How much more hypocritical can they get than locking up millions of people for non violent drug crimes in my country and wasting hundreds of billions of dollars each year while there is a debt crisis and at the same time arming violent thugs who torture and kill thousands upon thousands of people in Mexico all because of the silly laws that attempt to control what we do with our bodies. Control over what we do with or put in our bodies is something that should be probably the most basic, inalienable right of everyone on this planet.

All the USA and world as a whole has to show for the WOD is many millions of ruined lives, a huge number of deaths, and staggering amounts of taxpayer money wasted. I'll bet world hunger could be ended if the money spent worldwide on the WOD was used for that instead. There might even be enough left over to cure AIDS or cancer. (I'm really just guessing, but it doesn't take a genius to imagine countless great uses for that money and I am sure the taxpayers would be happy to just keep it for their own use.)

This government is corrupt and needs to be brought down. This is the kind of thing that makes me have nothing but contempt, hatred, and disgust for the majority of the government and law enforcement. I have little hope of better things from my country in my lifetime. There are only two ways I can see the WOD ending in the USA. 1: The debt problems get so bad that the WOD can not be financed and 2: Mexico or perhaps another large, major country legalizes use and sale of drugs.

I did not hear a single mention of this on TV news and never heard about it online until I saw this thread today. This seems like the kind of story that should make big headlines and stay in the news for at least a few days but instead we get the usual celebrity bullshit and that shit about the Casey Anthony trial. The only reason I watch TV news at all is to see how things are going with the middle east and north Africa protests and see if any calamities have occurred since the previous night. I make exceptions when something like a major disaster occurs and sometimes for politics. The mainstream media is not doing a good job in reporting real news.

Most people probably blame drugs and drug use instead of the war on drugs for the rampant violence inflicted on the Mexican people by the drug cartels. I doubt the Americans will open their eyes to the fact that the WOD is at the root of the violence unless Mexico or another country with lots of drug related violence decides to legalize.

It looks like maybe at least some of the people of Mexico are opening their eyes to the truth. There have been mass protests against the war on drugs in Mexico since March, perhaps because they understand that it is prohibition that is resulting in tens of thousands of brutal murders every year in their country. I can hope that the realization that the WOD is the cause of their problems continues to spread until their government can no longer ignore the wishes of the people.

If Mexico were to legalize drugs, I can't really see the WOD continuing in the USA for too long afterwards.
 
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Many weapons used by Mexican drug gangs originate in U.S.

(CNN) -- A trio of Democratic U.S. senators called for tougher firearms laws and regulations after releasing a report that showed a large number of weapons used by Mexico drug gangs originate north of the border.

More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report.

The report, released Monday, is the latest element in a debate over how large a role the United States plays in arming the ruthless Mexican drug cartels that are responsible for more than 34,000 killings since 2006.

Proponents of stricter gun controls say that the staggering numbers of U.S. weapons that end up in Mexico show that something must be done to control arms smuggling.

But others say that the numbers are skewed, arguing that Mexico asks the ATF to trace only weapons that it believes are from the United States.

cont here
 
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