Anyone got an idea on this? Is it to protect the plant from other animals eating it? If it is, the poppy coulda chose a better chemical than sweet sweet morphine.. however; I guess it does ensure the survival of the species as long as humans are around.
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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
What evolutionary reason does the poppy have for producing morphine/other opioids?
- Thread starter smackem
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New
Bluelight Crew
Believe it or not, most animals looking for a food source don't want to be sedated and/or nauseous. And if they do enjoy the euphoria, they're sitting ducks - get eaten before they reproduce.
I am not an evolutionary Biologist.
I am not an evolutionary Biologist.
CretiNation
Bluelighter
Samael hit the nail right on the head!
Kenaz
Bluelighter
My theory is that P. somniferum established a symbiotic relationship with humans some 7,500 years ago. So long as it produces morphine, it's guaranteed that somebody somewhere will propagate it in large quantities.
Thats the accepted theory, poppy plant ancestors with higher alkaloid content were less palatable to grazing animals hence reproduced better.
BUT the poppy has been cultivated by humans for so long selective breeding almost certainly has something to do with the modern plants high alkaloid content.
BUT the poppy has been cultivated by humans for so long selective breeding almost certainly has something to do with the modern plants high alkaloid content.
icecreamtrepan
Bluelighter
There's no directionality in evolution. Organisms develop certain processes and structures randomly and that includes alkaloids.
The poppy is successful with its opium alkaloids because it is both a defense against predators and a means of seed dispersal. The poppy plant has no mind that chose the alkaloids it has, they just happened to be beneficial adaptations that have led to the plant's proliferation through human cultivation.
The poppy is successful with its opium alkaloids because it is both a defense against predators and a means of seed dispersal. The poppy plant has no mind that chose the alkaloids it has, they just happened to be beneficial adaptations that have led to the plant's proliferation through human cultivation.
robatussin
Bluelighter
It is a self defense mechanism to prevent animals from eating the crops. I m sure this has been said just chiming in
gates_motel
Greenlighter
This is it here. Alkaloids were too bitter for the animals to eat, yet euphoric to humans hence we still have them today. There probably were many horrible tasting alkaloids back in the day, but by chance humans came across one that produced euphoria, so we ensured its survival. Thats my understanding of it.
HighonLife
Bluelighter
i believe that humans were role players in poppy propogation w/in the last 7.5-10,000 years but even 10,000 years isnt shit when considereing the evolutionary history of earth, what was the poppy doing when there was archaic homo sapiens or neandertals, or any of the australopithocenes? surely there has to be another reason for the poppies success besides human intervention. to me its seems very anthropocentric to believe humans are the reason for poppies evolutionary success. i can see that because of its bitterness that it wasnt a crop that was munched on my most animals but most wildflowers usually arent considered a great staple "crop" because they are low in essential nutritional value correct?
apastsoliloquy
Bluelighter
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Michael Pollan's book "The Bottany of Desire" tackles nearly this same question. He examines evolution and survival of the fittest from the perspective of the plant. He doesn't mention the poppy but does go into detail studying cannabis.
His suggestion is that as an evolutionary strategy for cannabis, getting people high might just be the ticket. We tend to look it from the perspective of "we domesticate the plants" but if you look at it from the perspective of the plant, few plants have spawned so many offspring as the poppy, cannabis, or even the lowly potato plant.
Quite interesting. He looks at 4 plants from this perspective. Potatoes, The Tulip (think about The Netherlands back in the 1600's, i think it was the 1600s), The Cannabis plant and finally the Apple. Interesting chapter in there about how Johnny Appleseed was really seeding the wild west with inedible apple plants, not to eat but to make cider in fact!
His suggestion is that as an evolutionary strategy for cannabis, getting people high might just be the ticket. We tend to look it from the perspective of "we domesticate the plants" but if you look at it from the perspective of the plant, few plants have spawned so many offspring as the poppy, cannabis, or even the lowly potato plant.
Quite interesting. He looks at 4 plants from this perspective. Potatoes, The Tulip (think about The Netherlands back in the 1600's, i think it was the 1600s), The Cannabis plant and finally the Apple. Interesting chapter in there about how Johnny Appleseed was really seeding the wild west with inedible apple plants, not to eat but to make cider in fact!
Obv the ability to produce morphine is QUITE an asset, esp in the past 10,000 years, with humans and all. But beyond that. I know opioids taste bitter, but there are PLENTY of other chemicals out there that also taste bitter that arn't near as complex as morphine. I mean, like an immeasurable amount of chemicals. Morphine isn't an easy thing to make, its quite complex, for just a bitter chemical.
Why not consider the very unique properties of morphine when thinking about the problem. I mean, we all know what morphine does, how is THAT an asset to the poppy? It is a very specific chemical with some VERY VERY interesting properties. That goes beyond 'it tastes bitter'
Remeber, potatoes used to be ineatable before many generations of breeding. Corn pretty much happened by accident when 2 grasses mixed.
Cannabis's THC suppisdly helps protect it from UV light in high altitude areas. I can't think of anything morphine could do for the poppy (besides the obvious (humans need morphine, humans grow poppies))
New
Bluelight Crew
Accidents do happen. They're called mutations.
Morphine is QUITE an accident. I mean, I could accept it as an accident, but doesn't that seem far fetched? Even if it was an accident, the poppy has been around millions of years before humans began to cultivate them. It takes energy to produce morphine. Don't you think that is a liability? How come the morphine making pods didn't get weeded out by non morphine making pods? The ones who make morphine would be at a disadvatage
New
Bluelight Crew
Well, yeah. But the ones with morphine are around. Something must have worked pre-cultivation.
Cane2theLeft
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I see this issue differently then how this discussion is framed... to me, the question isn't how the poppy adapted but how we did. Morphine would be useless if our bodies didn't have opioid receptors.
A key without a lock is just a piece of metal.
A key without a lock is just a piece of metal.
johanneschimpo
Bluelighter
Then you've missed the point of why plant produce alkaloids in the first place. It's not a disadvantage. It's an evolutionary advantage.
Anyway, everything is an accident.
Most living creatures have opioid receptors to some degree. I am pretty sure if this is a chicken and egg question, the opioid receptor came first. Unless every creature indivdually created opioid receptors just for the poppy, which is silly..
and THAT is my question!