Kratom Is drinking kratom everyday really a problem?

[Jabberwocky]

This website here: https://kratom.org/guides/kratom-drug-class/
States that kratom is “not an opioid, but has opioid like effects.”

Semantics... by this logic fentanyl is also not an opioid, but has opioid like effects.

Generally when people say opioid they're going by the effects and not the classic definition of a semisynthetic opiate chemical derived from poppies.

Mitragynine is actually a tryptamine derivative of all things.

 

[Dead Machination]

This website here: https://kratom.org/guides/kratom-drug-class/
States that kratom is “not an opioid, but has opioid like effects.”
Some people seem to drink it everyday and then stop without having many issues at all, and some seem to get dependent like you mentioned. It’s a gray area I suppose, but regardless I will not be drinking it much at all for the time being, as my mental health has been very fragile lately, and I’m processing some recent trauma.

I fully disagree with that "guide", and agree with the book that @Morbid Sea Cow posted. Maybe it doesn't technically meet the definition because it's not sourced from a poppy, but at that point it's just mincing words, because the chemicals act exactly like opiates in your brain.

Kratom and Other Mitragynines: The Chemistry and Pharmacology of Opioids from a Non-Opium Source.

The definitions you're looking for start on page 10. I can't copy paste from the document.

Kratom and Other Mitragynines

Opioids such as morphine, codeine, and oxycodone are extracts or analogs isolated from a single source: the opium poppy. For a long time, it was believed to be nature's only source of opioids. But it now appears that biological diversity has evolved an alternative source of opioid...

books.google.com

I've noticed this pattern of addiction denial from kratom users. I got banned from the Reddit kratom sub for suggesting to a mod that she was an addict because she was drinking 20 plus grams a day for years. But she could "quit when she wants with no withdrawal" yeah, sure you can. It was "chemical dependency" not addiction . On Reddit, they completely deny that kratom has any withdrawal symptoms or addiction potential. Let me tell you, as an opiate addict for more than 10 years, kratom is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. It's addictive, even if you just try to tough it out and claim it's not withdrawal like many do. (A reddit person was very obviously kratom sick from months of heavy use, and the entire group concluded it HAD to have been the flu, because kratom "doesn't" cause withdraw.) Just because the withdrawals don't put you in a bed or hospital, it doesn't mean we're not addicted.

To everyone who reads the "it's not addictive" comments and thinks it won't happen to you, you're in for a rude surprise. Daily kratom use will cause physical dependence and withdraw if enough is used for long enough, like ANY other opiates.

For some reason, some people find it incredibly difficult to admit they are addicts, and will jump through incredible hoops to try to prove it to you.

 

[washingtonbound]

I fully disagree with that "guide", and agree with the book that @Morbid Sea Cow posted. Maybe it doesn't technically meet the definition because it's not sourced from a poppy, but at that point it's just mincing words, because the chemicals act exactly like opiates in your brain.

Kratom and Other Mitragynines: The Chemistry and Pharmacology of Opioids from a Non-Opium Source.

The definitions you're looking for start on page 10. I can't copy paste from the document.

Kratom and Other Mitragynines

Opioids such as morphine, codeine, and oxycodone are extracts or analogs isolated from a single source: the opium poppy. For a long time, it was believed to be nature's only source of opioids. But it now appears that biological diversity has evolved an alternative source of opioid...

books.google.com

I've noticed this pattern of addiction denial from kratom users. I got banned from the Reddit kratom sub for suggesting to a mod that she was an addict because she was drinking 20 plus grams a day for years. But she could "quit when she wants with no withdrawal" yeah, sure you can. It was "chemical dependency" not addiction . On Reddit, they completely deny that kratom has any withdrawal symptoms or addiction potential. Let me tell you, as an opiate addict for more than 10 years, kratom is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. It's addictive, even if you just try to tough it out and claim it's not withdrawal like many do. (A reddit person was very obviously kratom sick from months of heavy use, and the entire group concluded it HAD to have been the flu, because kratom "doesn't" cause withdraw.) Just because the withdrawals don't put you in a bed or hospital, it doesn't mean we're not addicted.

To everyone who reads the "it's not addictive" comments and thinks it won't happen to you, you're in for a rude surprise. Daily kratom use will cause physical dependence and withdraw if enough is used for long enough, like ANY other opiates.

For some reason, some people find it incredibly difficult to admit they are addicts, and will jump through incredible hoops to try to prove it to you.

I don’t think having kratom dependence is the same as other opiates by any means. I have not started to drink it everyday, and most the time don’t even drink it more than once or twice a month. I just started to rethink things because my caffeine habit is starting to wear on me a bit, but I can see how my thinking may have been misguided.

 

[JackARoe]

Define "problem". A lot of people do Kratom everyday with varying degrees of dosage escalation and other issues.
However, what's going to happen when they, inevitably, ban it?

At this point, in the USA, unless we run out of kratom leaves in their native environment it is doubtful, other than a handful of states, that anything illegal will come of it. Even in Thailand they realize it could be good business and changed the law. I just hope things are done in a sustainable way, meaning the total opposite on how we handled the Rain Forests.

Good point.
And if it’s a problem, would you have another without it or simply drank or whatever other “problem”, maybe much bigger..

That is what I was going to say. If by not reaching for kratom a person wants to reach for something harder then kratom is a better choice. If a person is sort of a virgin with drugs and opiates I think they should stay away from kratom. Too many people "surprised" when they had a "discontinuation syndrone" (I love that nerdy term!)

If it is a step up by all means use kratom. If it is a step down then I would stay away. If I were completely sober I would start getting into good habits, like maybe forcing myself to take a good long walk everyday until it is as much of a habit as shoveling in kratom or taking anything heavier.

Also I have learned to cut myself slack over the years. We are chemical machines. It would be nice to have total clarity, total sobriety, total balance without the use of any chemicals. But we take in things everyday. We just have to decide the healthiest route for ourselves. As we get older it beccomes common place to take in chemicals more and more. Check the medicine cabinet of an older person and you will see. So my solution was to make peace with what I do. And as silly as it sounds when do take my kratom I say thank you Mother Nature for this helper on this day. That sort of changes the vibe from guilt to thankfulness which is a much healthier vibe than guilt. Nature gave us helpers. Hell we have to eat 2-3 meals a day and there is arguments over what those should be depending who you are.

 

[Dead Machination]

I don’t think having kratom dependence is the same as other opiates by any means.

Again, speaking from personal experience, vicarious experience, and medical literature, it absolutely is. I would say that withdrawals aren't as tough as a "harder" opiate, however. It's only the difference between wanting to die, and wanting to crawl out of your skin. No biggie .

I have not started to drink it everyday, and most the time don’t even drink it more than once or twice a month. I just started to rethink things because my caffeine habit is starting to wear on me a bit, but I can see how my thinking may have been misguided.

Every now and then is no problem, just like traditional opiates. Tons of people are prescribed opiates for surgery, and don't end up addicts. In my experience, it seems to take a little over a week or more of daily use to start becoming dependent. Some people take longer, some less.

If you keep your use at that level I don't foresee any problems.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Kratom dependence is definitely the same as typical opioids, it's just less severe. It also has its own unique withdrawal symptoms other opioids don't have, mainly a long lasting depression and anhedonia that is worse than typical opioids.

 

[The Shadow Self]

Well, all your questions will be answered once you run out. That's the day that comes for all of us, eventually. Not only that, having used Kratom to get off of opiates, I would never use it any other way and it has no recreational value to me personally.

To me, that's what Kratom is best at...helping you do that very thing if you don't want subs or methadone as a solution. It's a lifesaver in that regard, but beyond that? I have no interest in it and only would if I got myself in trouble with opiates again....which I have no plans to do. I am done with that cycle of madness and have been for years. And, for all the ruminations that "I'd never feel good without them again", I feel better than ever and plan on trying to keep it that way.

 

[Jabberwocky]

One thing that might lead someone to believe the dependence isn't like other opioids is because mitragynine goes through a multistage metabolism and has a half life of about 24hr.

It's different for everyone but for me the withdrawals didn't start until about 26 hours after last dose. This led me to use kratom for a very long time before I realized how dependent I was on it, because you don't wake up the next day in withdrawals.

 

[xtcgrrrl]

once you run out. That's the day that comes for all of us, eventually.

Speak for yourself; you ought to see the ENORMOUS amount I have stockpiled unless it becomes illegal, which I doubt will happen (there’s a surprisingly robust kratom lobby) then I don’t see this happening to me anytime soon.

 

[psychnauticmage]

Kratom derailed my life. Been using it for nearly a decade now, started at 16. Yeah, it's a problem.

 

[JackARoe]

Speak for yourself; you ought to see the ENORMOUS amount I have stockpiled unless it becomes illegal, which I doubt will happen (there’s a surprisingly robust kratom lobby) then I don’t see this happening to me anytime soon.

LOL, using on and off since 2006. How many scares did we have? So with all those scares I stuffed away a good bit. Could probably go two years without buying any. And I can attest stuff from 2008 is just as potent today. Very stable. The scare in 2016 was the scariest yet even that was backed off. Now in the US we have the AKA that goes around and educates people. Honestly the AKA annoys me as they use fear with it's members. But they do good and know the right people and if you look at the track record they stopped a lot of laws through that education. I think they work with the originating countries too. I do wish though there were laws for over 18 as well as only selling it from certain places, not everywhere. Should not be in the corner store. Alcohol is not. But I guess tobacco is. I use to smoke. Hmmm. Self control people! lol

My first two years I did use sparingly. then I made the decision to go daily when I had urges to go to the street for things. Poppy pods were not as available like they were the last 20 years before that. The pull was strong. Not sure if we had a fentanyl problem in 2006 or so but kratom stopped me from going any deeper. In that way it helped me and I am alive. I think 2006 people were wtill buying heroin off a street dealer.

I read a few of Washingtonbounds posts and I do not know what to suggest. If you can use kratom and feel ok and not guilty like you are not screwing up then please do. If it is in your mind you want off everything a good while give that a good 6 months too.

Lastly obession for any drug or activity only goes away with time. Take something like smoking cocaine. IF someone smoked yesterday then today they are totally jonesing today. If that same person puts 6 months between the last use he may go full days without even thinking of it. Substance use can be a black hole. So the further away you are the less pull. If obsession did not go away no one would ever quit anything. Obsession goes away with time. That is why I say create some good habits.

I have been using daily since 2014 at this point. Used since 2006. Stopped a few times. I am due for a break but life gets busy. I do force myself to take 24 hour breaks. I am one of the lucky people I know who kratom helps. A could of friends of mine did not think it was strong enough and it never took. I think it is strong enough. But to me it has a ceiling. But that also goes with the withdrawal. I get restless, chilled, and lethargic and that is about it. I have less anxiety in withdrawal as kratom itself is causing me anxiety. I also can quell the RLS with cannabis. I can quell the entire withdrawal with gabapentin. (that is the way I cheat and go 1-2 days without it and it works). But I am lucky enough through all my past opiate withdrawals that I get happy when I quit something. Not depressed. But I can say that and the next person has depression as one of their major symptoms. So really the only way to get any info is read what everyone has to say.

I can say Last Winter I was up to about 40 gr twice a day. I dropped that to half for the last year. I did feel better on that drop. Keeping it low as well as very spaced out (8-10 hours in between dosing) and it can be controlled.

IF I may be as bold as to say this now to Washington bound I would not do this right now. Not until you are a little more comfy in your skin with all the sobriety. Just a personal opinion reading your posts.

 

[The Shadow Self]

Speak for yourself; you ought to see the ENORMOUS amount I have stockpiled unless it becomes illegal, which I doubt will happen (there’s a surprisingly robust kratom lobby) then I don’t see this happening to me anytime soon.

Of course you'll never run out. Crazy stuff like that never happens when trying to stockpile a lifetime's supply of drugs....

 

[plumbus-nine]

Of course you'll never run out. Crazy stuff like that never happens when trying to stockpile a lifetime's supply of drugs....

This implies to have a secure place to stockpile. I had a good supply of various chems stocked up when I became homeless and lost all the stock.

 

[xtcgrrrl]

Of course you'll never run out. Crazy stuff like that never happens when trying to stockpile a lifetime's supply of drugs....

Yeah, crazy stuff like buying a ton more when I already have plenty I’m one of those drug users who likes to have a lil stockpile of my favorites

 

[Xorkoth]

I don’t think having kratom dependence is the same as other opiates by any means. I have not started to drink it everyday, and most the time don’t even drink it more than once or twice a month. I just started to rethink things because my caffeine habit is starting to wear on me a bit, but I can see how my thinking may have been misguided.

Kratom dependence is very similar to "real" opiate dependence, except that there is no nausea/diarrhea, and the akathisia (ie, restless legs/body) is FAR WORSE than any other opioid.

I'm someone who got into opiates because of kratom, as opposed to the other direction. I started using kratom in 2002/2003, back before hardly anyone knew about it. I fell in love with opiates as a result of kratom. Eventually, after 6 years, kratom had stopped doing anything for me, after I was up to 50, 70, even up to 100 grams per day, chasing the original high. I graduated to full agonist opioids so that I could actually feel them. I've withdrawn from virtually every opiate (not some of the newer RCs, but the classics), and for me, restless limbs is the worst symptom, because it prevents me from sleeping and makes me feel like I'm going insane and want to rip my own arms off. And trust me when I say that kratom has the WORST restlessness of any opioid or opioid-like substance, that I have done.

If you dose it once per day in a low dose, it's probably only ever going to be a mild withdrawal. But if you are heavily addicted to it, trust me when I say, it is hell to get off of.

It amazes me how much denial there is among online kratom using groups. Kratom is not a harmless plant that is a miracle cure for opiate addiction. It is an opiate, you're trading one addiction for another.

Don't get me wrong, if you went from slamming fentanyl daily to dosing legally obtained kratom daily, then bravo, good work, and I'm, happy for you. Definitely the lesser of two evils. But just don't act like it's some benign, harmless plant that you can use with no reperceussions.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Kratom dependence is very similar to "real" opiate dependence, except that there is no nausea/diarrhea, and the akathisia (ie, restless legs/body) is FAR WORSE than any other opioid.

Agreed, the restless legs and arms made me go insane when I went cold turkey.

I had the gamut of withdrawal symptoms and literally did not sleep at all for 5 days straight, but the restlessness was by far the worst symptom of them all. It was fucking torture.

I did have diarrhea, but it was mild and only for a few days. Loperamide probably would have fixed that but I didn't take any.

 

[JackARoe]

These testimonies are the reason I say unless a person absolutely needs kratom then stay away. We hear the success stories and different angles. Then there is the angle that someone graduates to harder stuff. Slippery slope. I am not even sure I am a success story. The only thing I did was not reach for street stuff and it held. And my experience is I got laughed at when I tried to introduce it to some heavy opiate users. Written off as not strong enough. So I kind of slinked back on saying anything.

My wife shoveled in kratom all day every day for 6 years. No real schedule and sometimes 6 times a day. Did this for 6 years and quit in 2012. I watched her kick. 5 days of restlessness and lethargy. Finally slept more than 2 hours on the 6th night. 2 weeks of lethargy. But then she said she was back to normal at that point. But it was dramatic enough for her to never touch it again. It was the lethargy that lingered beyond the first 5 days. No real depression. She said she was more depressed on it.

I myself need off. Been about 10 solid years now where as in the past i would kick to lower tolerance. Although the same amount works everyday for me. I am down to about 20 grams a day. So much better than 50 gr a day. I know how that is. I think the ability to taper is where kratom shines should a person have some will power.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

These testimonies are the reason I say unless a person absolutely needs kratom then stay away. We hear the success stories and different angles. Then there is the angle that someone graduates to harder stuff. Slippery slope. I am not even sure I am a success story. The only thing I did was not reach for street stuff and it held. And my experience is I got laughed at when I tried to introduce it to some heavy opiate users. Written off as not strong enough. So I kind of slinked back on saying anything.

My wife shoveled in kratom all day every day for 6 years. No real schedule and sometimes 6 times a day. Did this for 6 years and quit in 2012. I watched her kick. 5 days of restlessness and lethargy. Finally slept more than 2 hours on the 6th night. 2 weeks of lethargy. But then she said she was back to normal at that point. But it was dramatic enough for her to never touch it again. It was the lethargy that lingered beyond the first 5 days. No real depression. She said she was more depressed on it.

I myself need off. Been about 10 solid years now where as in the past i would kick to lower tolerance. Although the same amount works everyday for me. I am down to about 20 grams a day. So much better than 50 gr a day. I know how that is. I think the ability to taper is where kratom shines should a person have some will power.

I do not allow myself to do Kratom more than once a week. I generally use it for work or a hangover. (about 1/2 or less of a normal dose will kill a hangover nicely) Usually, it's less than once a week. I'm not finding this too hard.

I love my pot and do it too much when I'm doing it. I intend to go ahead and get hooked hard on that after a while.
I think about it when I'm not smoking, making pipes and roach clips for presents and keeping up with legalization news.
I don't know if loving and craving pot helps with Kratom control or not, but I drink alcohol much less when I'm smoking reefer, so there's that.

My girlfriend, who I have corrupted (She had never done anything but alcohol before I met her.), I allow Kratom once a week. Once in a great while, twice in a week. I'm keeping doses kinda low as well. She does have pain issues (I do too).
She is always saying, "Why would it be so bad to get hooked on Kratom. It really helps me.".
I am constantly telling her about diminishing returns and escalating doses. I kinda feel bad for introducing her to it.
As a side note, she likes pot OK, but nothing like I do.

 

[specialrelativity]

Probably not a problem, but you have to figure that out for yourself.
Mark

 

[Neuroborean]

I did use Kratom daily for a couple of month, dosage being approx 7.5g a day, taken at once in the morning and I got restlessness / RLS upon withdrawal but it was short lived, just a few days and could be tapered. But I also got only minimal effects from the Kratom, if you get stronger effects you're likely gonna have a worse withdrawal.

Kratom or mitragynine is definitely an opioid, an atypical one but it is.

For me, kratom causes less and less intense withdrawal as time passes, I mean, every time I quit I experience less and less intense withdrawal symptoms...

it seems to be the opposite as some other people experiences.. that say that the more times you try to quit, the harder it becomes...
In my case this is not real at all, I just feel a bit anxious, I may have horrible insomnia the first 2-3 days (or not, it seems to depend on physical exercise and concomitant use of stims to "solve" the motivational/energy issues) and little more than that
but it becomes easier each time I try to quit, to the point that I no longer care of tapering in a slow way, I just taper from 12 (my max) to 10, then to 8-9 for a couple days, then 6-5 and then only a dose in the night, 2-3 grams. Basically I taper for a week or 10 days max, and quit without a problem.

Maybe it's related with the fact that I know what to use to feel better, supplements and all, and I tend to use them.. so that could be the important factor, but..
I also think that once you get used to that light withdrawal and your dosing it's always the same (for years) then your body knows how to manage with that "chemical imbalances" and in a few days (4-5 for me) I feel almost 100% normal.
I don't like the testosterone lowering issue with kratom, so I plan to quit it completely in a year or so, but I also plan to use it sparingly.
During my first years, Specially first year, kratom felt like heaven, my life felt so happy and uplifting, I was so content with EVERYTHING and I did a lot of things, like I had infinite energy... then that started dissapearing and I had my first withdrawal more or less the second year and a half, of using it (around a year daily perhaps..) the first withdrawal was quite harsh, anxiety bordering panic attack intensity, debilitating depression...
that shit didn't happen again, maybe the second time, much more manageable, now I barely feel depression or anything, just lack of motivation, lethargy...