Kratom Is drinking kratom everyday really a problem?

[Xorkoth]

Couple things here.

I assume you mean risk of "overdose" because ability to cause respiratory depression has nothing to do with addiction or withdrawl?

2nd, unfortunately, there have been a few documented fatalities that have been ascribed to kratom alone. I happen to know half the people named in the lawsuit

Parents sue over son's death after he took kratom supplement

The parents of a 23-year-old Georgia man who died after using kratom have filed a wrongful death lawsuit against about a dozen people, companies and organizations connected to the manufacturing, marketing and sale of the herbal supplement

abcnews.go.com

Um for the original question, some people (me) can take kratom everyday for months and stop cold turkey with little more than a tired feeling for a week. On the other hand, I have known two people in my life that truly are addicted and will freak out if they cant dose every 4 hours or so. Kratom does have an ugly side imo.

Yes! Damn, what a typo... fixed the post

2nd, unfortunately, there have been a few documented fatalities that have been ascribed to kratom alone. I happen to know half the people named in the lawsuit

Damn, that sucks. And sorry, sounds like they were friends. I was unaware, was it high potency extracts or something? I've taken tremendous amounts of kratom and never experienced anything like respiratory depression. Or was it even due to respiratory depression?

Have you ever tried opms or kshot extract shots? I wonder how many grams those are. A opms black shot, if it hits, can feel like 90mg of Roxy. Sometimes nothing though. Shits cancer though and I don’t do that shit anymore.

Oh yeah. The good extracts are the only things that approach what plain crushed leaf used to do to me. But so god damn expensive.

 

[Dead Machination]

I OD'd on U47700 back when it has JUST hit the market, and nobody (especially local LE) knew what it was. At the time it wasn't on death tox screens, or fentanyl and opiate tests.

The cops found the needle, and tested my blood, but couldn't figure out anything to charge me with. Supposedly the syringe was sent to two labs, but only came back as "unknown substance", and the lab actually suspected that it wasn't drug-related.

I can't help but wonder if some of the kratom deaths are similar. Maybe not all of them, but some. Just weird RC they didn't test for, maybe even inadvertently ingested (like taking a "roxy 30" and it's actually a hotspot of some super sketchy new fent RC).

There's also always people that are going to overdo it, people die from drinking too much water, Tylenol OD, and exercising too much. Even if every one of those cases is a legitimate kratom OD, The margin of safety is still incredible, and still probably much higher than the majority of over the counter drugs.

I could see an incident like this being used to attempt to pull kratom, or at least extracts, off the shelves.

I also agree about the loose leaf being SO much better than the new powder. The first time I tried it was years ago, as a very rough cut loose tea. By far the best. I was able to get a pack of loose leaf recently, and it still blows the powder out of the water. I double boiled it and it ended up looking like dark Ayahuasca, it was every bit as good as "real" opiates too, even with a tolerance.

 

[Didgital]

Yes! Damn, what a typo... fixed the post



Damn, that sucks. And sorry, sounds like they were friends. I was unaware, was it high potency extracts or something? I've taken tremendous amounts of kratom and never experienced anything like respiratory depression. Or was it even due to respiratory depression?



Oh yeah. The good extracts are the only things that approach what plain crushed leaf used to do to me. But so god damn expensive.

I didn't know the kid, but I worked for a company associated with OPMS. And yeah the report says they found the kid with a plastic bag of empty OPMS black extracts.

375mg per bottle
(Mitragynine content 48%) – 180mg per bottle

Anyway when this first happened, everyone thought maybe it was some interaction, but no other substances were detected (not that all RCs are looked for).

I dunno where I posted it but somewhere I mentioned about how I gave 100mg of 93% mit to an investor, she loved it. Then I gave her 200mg of 30% mit and 30% minors and she got terribly sick. Makes me think one of the minors is more toxic.

I don't use kratom often, but I much much prefer the higher mit stuff.

 

[Didgital]

Or was it even due to respiratory depression?

No I think it was some other unknown mechanism. Afaik kratom alkaloids dont cause respiratory depression.

Kratom is such a crazy plant though. The alkaloids hit all sorts of receptors serotonin, opioid, adrenergic, NMDA etc.

It's not terribly surprising that this happened because of that, and yeah some people just take things too far.

I couldn't imagine taking that much, I absolutely hate the feeling of taking too much. Dizzy sweats and nausea. I actually had to leave work early one day and I was half passing out on my drive home.

 

[Droppersneck]

I didn't know the kid, but I worked for a company associated with OPMS. And yeah the report says they found the kid with a plastic bag of empty OPMS black extracts.

375mg per bottle
(Mitragynine content 48%) – 180mg per bottle

Anyway when this first happened, everyone thought maybe it was some interaction, but no other substances were detected (not that all RCs are looked for).

I dunno where I posted it but somewhere I mentioned about how I gave 100mg of 93% mit to an investor, she loved it. Then I gave her 200mg of 30% mit and 30% minors and she got terribly sick. Makes me think one of the minors is more toxic.

I don't use kratom often, but I much much prefer the higher mit stuff.

Btw never have sex with your investor lol, it rarely ends well.

What do you mean by mit vs minor? I used to do the black shots, till I got to be able to do a whole one at a time, and decided to quit. Too many side effects. I don’t think it has RCs in it, it’s probably one of the better extracts I’ve done. K shots seem cleaner, but aren’t as strong. Any suggestions?

 

[ItsclearlyFake]

It’s not good to do long term, like any opiate. It messes with your hormones, lowers T in males. Makes you have to pee a ton, and can really mess up your long term motivation and outlook. I am doing it about once every few weeks, took me a long time to get here. But I plan on discontinuing it completely soon.

IME That's a brilliant way to summit up

 

[Didgital]

What do you mean by mit vs minor?

I'm sorry I forget few people have studied this plant as much as me. MIT is mitragynine, the main psychoactive compound in kratom. Minors refers to the less abundant alkaloids like speciogynine, paynantheine, speciocillatine etc.

There's I believe around 60 different alkaloids potentially present with 39 of them endemic (not found anywhere else) to kratom. We have barely touched the tip of the iceberg when it comes to researching these other compounds, and we know absolutely nothing about how they might all act as an entourage effect.

I also suspect theres way more alkaloids that we haven't identified yet. Specifically the hydroxylated and psuedoindoxyl counterparts (WAY more potent btw) of the more well known alkaloids.

I can tell you with confidence that the OPMS shots are very full spectrum (lots of the minor alkaloids present) which IME actually seems better for pain but the experience is noticeably dirtier/foggier/couchier than pure MIT.

Pure MIT is really nice.

 

[Droppersneck]

I'm sorry I forget few people have studied this plant as much as me. MIT is mitragynine, the main psychoactive compound in kratom. Minors refers to the less abundant alkaloids like speciogynine, paynantheine, speciocillatine etc.

There's I believe around 60 different alkaloids potentially present with 39 of them endemic (not found anywhere else) to kratom. We have barely touched the tip of the iceberg when it comes to researching these other compounds, and we know absolutely nothing about how they might all act as an entourage effect.

I also suspect theres way more alkaloids that we haven't identified yet. Specifically the hydroxylated and psuedoindoxyl counterparts (WAY more potent btw) of the more well known alkaloids.

I can tell you with confidence that the OPMS shots are very full spectrum (lots of the minor alkaloids present) which IME actually seems better for pain but the experience is noticeably dirtier/foggier/couchier than pure MIT.

Pure MIT is really nice.

Where can pure MIT be found? Does a certain brand do it. I’d honestly feel better about it, not getting a bunch of the minors, if I’m not doing plain leaf.

 

[JackARoe]

I'm sorry I forget few people have studied this plant as much as me. MIT is mitragynine, the main psychoactive compound in kratom. Minors refers to the less abundant alkaloids like speciogynine, paynantheine, speciocillatine etc.

Just want to say I would love to sit in a room and converse on all kinds of things that I know you could fascinate me with Digital. The knowledge is appreciated. Someday we will click on a post and transport to the physical space of the person.

I will say kratom is starting to remind me of how cocaine went. People chewed coca leaves for years. Then it was concentrated and became something else. I have not had a kratom extract in years. I just use the plain powder. A Red Bentuange that kicks for me. But I think of some of these alkaloids and other things get concentrated we may see similar problems. To me kratom is the powdered leaf And unless someone I trust extracted it I would not take it. There have been some sketch extracts. I just think lower doses of the plain leaf is safer.

i still have a pound of the whole Bali leaf from 2006 that I have to grind. I have to say it is comparable to the Red Bentuange I have been using. But I like to go back to batches from years ago. Kratom seems very stable.

 

[Didgital]

Where can pure MIT be found?

It can't commercially outside of some very expensive chemical supply companies which probably would never sell to an individual.

I'm a chemist, and worked for 3 different companies doing extraction. I developed a method that concentrates the MIT. It's not a suitable method for a hobby chemist tho

 

[Didgital]

The knowledge is appreciated.

Thanks man, I love learning and sharing. Unfortunately the kratom space is filled with misinformation and forgive me for saying this, complete fucking idiots who legit refuse this kind of knowledge. For example, leaf vein color is actually indicative of plant maturity, NOT genetic differences. So white green and red Borneo are all coming from the same genetics usually just different ages.

White is the youngest and tend to be mitragynine dominant. As the plants age, they accumulate alkaloids which over time form more of the oxidized alkaloids like 7-hydroxymitragynine and mitragynine psuedoindoxyl which are much more potent compounds. This is why reds are the strongest and the whites are cleaner and more stimulating. Trying to convince your average consumer is like talking to a brick wall.

I'm hoping to start a lab in thailand eventually because its recently legalized there

I think of some of these alkaloids and other things get concentrated we may see similar problems.

I think that's exactly what's happening.

There have been some sketch extracts.

You wouldnt believe the extracts I've seen. I'm currently trying to work up 4 separate kilos of extract that was given to me. They're all hovering at 4% (which is terrible, I dont even know how they can make such a poor extract) and I shit you not each kg is dyed a different color purple, red, black etc. Fucking gross.

A really simple extraction process would be to macerate the powder in everclear or 99% isopropyl at 40c for 48 hrs. Filter out powder and evaporate for an extract that usually around 20% mit. Methanol is even better but highly toxic and flamnable so I wont recommend that for a home chemist.

 

[ItsclearlyFake]

Thanks man, I love learning and sharing. Unfortunately the kratom space is filled with misinformation and forgive me for saying this, complete fucking idiots who legit refuse this kind of knowledge. For example, leaf vein color is actually indicative of plant maturity, NOT genetic differences. So white green and red Borneo are all coming from the same genetics usually just different ages.

So the name of the 'strain' its actually indicative of a precise type of leaf ? I always thought it was either all marketing or that the name (like 'Borneo' or 'Malay') just represented the origin of the trees/farm.

And even that sounds sketchy because 'malay' would represent Malaysia, which is not precisely just 4 acres of land lol

 

[Didgital]

So the name of the 'strain' its actually indicative of a precise type of leaf ? I always thought it was either all marketing or that the name (like 'Borneo' or 'Malay') just represented the origin of the trees/farm.

And even that sounds sketchy because 'malay' would represent Malaysia, which is not precisely just 4 acres of land lol

It is marketing. A lot of people will say otherwise. There likely is a bit of genetic diversity. A green malay strain may have a different alkaloid profile than green thai. But what I'm saying is green white and red malay the main difference is not in genetics/strains, but age/maturity of the plant.

Theres also "gold vein" which again is just marketing. It's usually a mix of white and red vein leaf. Theres different harvesting and drying processes too. So many variables and buying biomass can be a serious crapshoot.

 

[Xorkoth]

Thanks for all the info, Didgital. Fascinating.

 

[Droppersneck]

It is marketing. A lot of people will say otherwise. There likely is a bit of genetic diversity. A green malay strain may have a different alkaloid profile than green thai. But what I'm saying is green white and red malay the main difference is not in genetics/strains, but age/maturity of the plant.

Theres also "gold vein" which again is just marketing. It's usually a mix of white and red vein leaf. Theres different harvesting and drying processes too. So many variables and buying biomass can be a serious crapshoot.

While we have this q&a going, do you know why these extracts make you have to pee so much?

 

[Didgital]

That's a good question but I don't have a solid answer. I dont use them regularly enough to notice that effect.

I do hear on kratom forums that almost everyone ups their water intake, and that eating a lot of the powdered plant is very dehydrating.

If the extracts are diuretic that's actually news to me.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Kratom has always acted as a diuretic for me, both powder and extracts. It's actually kind of annoying, because this diuretic effect lasts several hours, longer than coffee.

 

[Xorkoth]

That's a good question but I don't have a solid answer. I dont use them regularly enough to notice that effect.

I do hear on kratom forums that almost everyone ups their water intake, and that eating a lot of the powdered plant is very dehydrating.

If the extracts are diuretic that's actually news to me.

I can concur that eating a lot of the leaf powder is very drying. During the periods of time in my life when I was doing tons of kratom (30, 50+ grams), I would wake up every morning with my eyes feeling glued shut. And at night I'd have ti use eye drops every 20-30 minutes to be able to lay in bed and read.

 

[Droppersneck]

I can concur that eating a lot of the leaf powder is very drying. During the periods of time in my life when I was doing tons of kratom (30, 50+ grams), I would wake up every morning with my eyes feeling glued shut. And at night I'd have ti use eye drops every 20-30 minutes to be able to lay in bed and read.

Yup, and pee like 6 times a night lol. It’s why I’m on the journey to quitting for good.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah I recommend quitting. The 5 years I had clean from opiates was the best 5 years of my adult life. 2014-2019... those were the days. Still can't believe I relapsed after all that time.