Lysergamides LSD first timer. Questions and suggestions

[unodelacosa]

unodealosca everybody has discredited you on these fourms. Lmao thumbprints lmao lsd chemist. Thumbprints are a myth.

Absorbing LSD through your skin is (mostly) a myth, but the tradition of thumbprinting is still very much a real thing that hippies and flower children and shit still get down with. Regardless, a massive puddle of acid is consumed (orally) after one has put the broad flat side of one's thumb into a small dish of liquid LSD solution (~80% ethanol). I don't give a fuck if you believe me; after all, you seem to think LSD lasts for 24 hours, so it's not as if you know what you're talking about when you don't even understand the basic facts of an acid trip, including that the duration is 8 to 12 hours. Not 24. You would know this if you've dropped acid even once. So until you can explain why you're so incorrect on this basic fact, you have nothing to say on this thread.

EDIT: Also, if I'm so "discredited", tell me why do I have 222 posts and a 215 reaction score? What is that, some 96% almost 97%? How's that glass house of yours doing?

Sounds like a narc!

Wow, that's one bitch-ass thing to say. You're old enough to know better than to run your fuckin' mouth like that, too. WTF? Look bro, I tell you what, to anyone who thinks I’m some noob, dumbass, liar, narc, piece of shit, or whatever, skim through my post history. If that’s insufficient for you, go check out Reddit user /u/entactoBob and let me know if you still think this. In fact, go peep this comment that was gilded and made the Best of Reddit sub seven years ago:

Just give up, buddy.

WhoTF are you to be barking orders? Don't tell me what to do, and you have a lot of nerve calling me "buddy" after talking all that shit without having your facts together. If this is a harm reduction forum than I'm not going to give up on pointing out incorrect information when it is posted, nor information that I find misleading, particularly on a thread when someone is asking for this information. I've never had anything bad to say toward you whatsoever and you just come out of nowhere insulting the shit out of me. I really don't appreciate it.

No one said 25ug was strong,

Oh really? Try reading the fucking thread next time before you decide to be an asshole to me for no reason, or in this case, for reasons that you are simply wrong about. @AutoTripper indeed said that 25 µg is a "strong trip". I'd say you owe me an apology, b/c @AutoTripper has already admitted this to you.

no one said the effects are full-on for long durations - rather that some of us can feel “altered” for longer than 12 hours.
And by the way, if Wiki is your scholarly source, well . . . have fun with the cool stories!

Wrong again all over the place. I've qualified already that I was quoting wikipedia at one point (EDIT: among many various sources, actually; you're way-off-base for attacking me like this, and your comment is especially filled with the spirit of punk-bitch-ass-ness). But I also quoted psychonautwiki.org which is highly quoted throughout this forum and is decorated with trip-reports just like this site is. It is a respected source, and you don't have shit to say about this and you know it. It disgusts me how quickly you tried to jump on a bandwagon without having read through my posts completely. Just thought you'd join in when you saw people kicking dirt at me, huh? Try having a little bit of personal integrity for a change and maybe paying the fuck attention when someone knows their shit and can back it up with actual sources, experience, and knowledge and will speak/write confidently about these subjects, even when ganged up on by people who don't know what they're talking about.

And if anything, by sharing our lived experiences, a greenhorn can better judge potential after effects, or TOTAL altered duration.
It’s a harm reduction forum, not a pissing contest.

Yep, and I'm trying to prevent the spread of misinformation that could set the wrong expectations in an inexperienced user. Telling such a user that 25 µg is a strong dose and to expect a strong dose to last for 24 hours sets the wrong expectations wouldn't you say???

 

[unodelacosa]

(did’t mean to offend anyone).

Really? So when you said that I sounded like a narc, you didn't expect anything about that to be offensive to me???

 

[unodelacosa]

@Perforated I would just like to point out here that I'm not negating anyone's personal trip reports and stories as being patently made up lies (although I'm sure this does occur once in a while). However, 1. I will point out if someone's trip report for a substance reports qualitative effects that fall well outside the typical response to a drug we're used to seeing. E.g. – if an acid trip is particular potent at a dose of only 25 µg, that is abnormal and I would point out that 25 µg is usually NOT a "strong" trip. Similarly, if someone took acid and tripped for 24 hours, I would call that significant as well. Peruse through LSD trip reports on Erowid and one will see that a typical LSD trip is not commonly thought of as having lasted 24 hours

And 2. I will also point it out if someone is presenting their own personal trip report as fact with zero qualification or explanation, as has occurred earlier in this thread.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@Perforated I would just like to point out here that I'm not negating anyone's personal trip reports and stories as being patently made up lies (although I'm sure this does occur once in a while). However, 1. I will point out if someone's trip report for a substance reports qualitative effects that fall well outside the typical response to a drug we're used to seeing. E.g. – if an acid trip is particular potent at a dose of only 25 µg, that is abnormal and I would point out that 25 µg is usually NOT a "strong" trip. Similarly, if someone took acid and tripped for 24 hours, I would call that significant as well. Peruse through LSD trip reports on Erowid and one will see that a typical LSD trip is not commonly thought of as having lasted 24 hours

And 2. I will also point it out if someone is presenting their own personal trip report as fact with zero qualification or explanation, as has occurred earlier in this thread.

Thanks man. You make good reasonable and logical points. However, in post #161 tonight (above) you are reacting heavily to stuff people said days and pages ago. I think the whole tone of the argument has chilled since then and gotten back to more of a live and live vibe. We are back at friendly discussion now I think.

 

[unodelacosa]

your talking medical diagnosis here.

some refs please.

I do agree to an extent but refs make people listen.

Nobody posts references around here but will argue with you until they're blue in the face. It's super fucking frustrating, and there's zero enforcement of this kind of thing from the mods, plus no downvoting availability, so any info coming from this site is of compromised value (unless sourced), and it's too bad. Kinda ruins things, to me, and many threads become weird circle jerks of misinformation.

 

[unodelacosa]

Thanks man. You make good reasonable and logical points. However, in post #161 tonight (above) you are reacting heavily to stuff people said days and pages ago. I think the whole tone of the argument has chilled since then and gotten back to more of a live and live vibe. We are back at friendly discussion now I think.

Yeah I really don't like it when someone calls me a "narc" though (@DrumTripper). I had points to make, so I made them. To summarize, and in response to the original thread question: Virtually no one with experience with LSD will call 25 µg a "strong dose". Also, not including the "afterglow" an LSD trip lasts 8 to 12 hours. Very large doses can extend the length of the trip some, but there is a limit to how long an acid trip can be extended on a single large dose, and I would not expect an acid trip to last 24 hours (@TripSitterNZ). Have a great day

See there? I made it nice and happy. Good vibes to all.

 

[unodelacosa]

Oh also, for what it's worth: correlation does not prove causation. LSD does not cause schizophrenia. A traumatic/harrowing emotional experience has been known to bring out dormant psychological disorders that are genetic and nature and were set to develop in that person's life eventually. Syd Barrett is the prime example of this, despite being misrepresented in the press for sensationalism purposes and during an era of ignorance regarding these substances in the U.K. All of this has been well covered and documented by others, as well as the original post, so you're probably right, @Perforated, but all the same… sometimes you gotta stand up for what is right and what is true.

 

[Jabberwocky]

In an effort to maybe find some common ground in the points discussed I tried to find some science. This article describes a very well designed study in the very reputable journal Nature showing dose/response/time variations for dosages from 25-200ug. Although the full effects of the 200 ug were moderated with a 5HTP2A antagonist before they could fully emerge.

The bottom line from the research group is that 25 ug was discernible as an LSD experience in comparison to a placebo in 85 % of cases. However, it is clear that that is not a ‘strong dose’ when looking at the relative effects of increasing doses and the fact that the researchers settled on 100 ug as the ideal therapeutic dose. I think there was some sloppy or casual use of the word ‘strong’ in earlier posts, but will people register a 25 ug LSD dose as something significant? Most likely yes if they are like the experimental group.

Acute dose-dependent effects of lysergic acid diethylamide in a double-blind placebo-controlled study in healthy subjects - Neuropsychopharmacology

Growing interest has been seen in using lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) in psychiatric research and therapy. However, no modern studies have evaluated subjective and autonomic effects of different and pharmaceutically well-defined doses of LSD. We used a double-blind, randomized...

www.nature.com

The study also shows that a minority of subjects reported minor subjective effects (I think what we would describe as afterglow) up to 24 hours time elapsed since dosing. But the median experience was determined to be around 8-11 hours with a little bit of variation +/- 3 hours depending on dosage strength. So @unodelacosa ‘s point that trips cannot be extended significantly by taking larger doses is largely upheld by the experimental results.

 

[unodelacosa]

In an effort to maybe find some common ground in the points discussed I tried to find some science. This article describes a very well designed study in the very reputable journal Nature showing dose/response/time variations for dosages from 25-200ug. Although the full effects of the 200 ug were moderated with a 5HTP2A antagonist before they could fully emerge.

The bottom line from the research group is that 25 ug was discernible as an LSD experience in comparison to a placebo in 85 % of cases. However, it is clear that that is not a ‘strong dose’ when looking at the relative effects of increasing doses and the fact that the researchers settled on 100 ug as the ideal therapeutic dose. I think there was some sloppy or casual use of the word ‘strong’ in earlier posts, but will people register a 25 ug LSD dose as something significant? Most likely yes if they are like the experimental group.

Acute dose-dependent effects of lysergic acid diethylamide in a double-blind placebo-controlled study in healthy subjects - Neuropsychopharmacology

Growing interest has been seen in using lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) in psychiatric research and therapy. However, no modern studies have evaluated subjective and autonomic effects of different and pharmaceutically well-defined doses of LSD. We used a double-blind, randomized...

www.nature.com

The study also shows that a minority of subjects reported minor subjective effects (I think what we would describe as afterglow) up to 24 hours time elapsed since dosing. But the median experience was determined to be around 8-11 hours with a little bit of variation +/- 3 hours depending on dosage strength. So @unodelacosa ‘s point that trips cannot be extended significantly by taking larger doses is largely upheld by the experimental results.

Thank you. And to be clear: I've never suggested that 25 µg of acid is indiscernible. I'll even go so far as to state that from what I've read in the literature (links posted earlier but I will reshare upon request), as low as 15 µg can still be recognized and delineated from placebo. It's just not a dose most would consume b/c though discernible, these effects typically prove to be underwhelming and not what the average user is looking for from an acid trip.

 

[AutoTripper]

I still get some amusement I feel I shouldn’t at the declaration of being a Not-yet.

It’s like an unseen fear, like, maybe it’s just me but I don’t fear becoming schizophrenic.

But there are still it would appear, Not-yets out there, but they would unlikely know it.

So it should just become a social norm to ask everybody- what stage of Schizophrenia are you at?

Just two answers. It keeps it clear that way.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I still get some amusement I feel I shouldn’t at the declaration of being a Not-yet.

It’s like an unseen fear, like, maybe it’s just me but I don’t fear becoming schizophrenic.

But there are still it would appear, Not-yets out there, but they would unlikely know it.

So it should just become a social norm to ask everybody- what stage of Schizophrenia are you at?

Just two answers. It keeps it clear that,way.

I fear becoming psychotic. I lived for nearly 6 months with Capgras delusion when my kid was really little. Totally destroyed family life.

 

[AutoTripper]

I fear becoming psychotic. I lived for nearly 6 months with Capgras delusion when my kid was really little. Totally destroyed family life.

I’m sorry I didn’t mean that insensitively, I’ve known a lot of people with mental illness over time, but never anybody with a fear of developing schizophrenia in particular.

It’s just so unanticipated, and unpredictable. Not with regards to general mental illness, I mean the fear of something totally unseen and felt emerges.

It didn’t appear outwardly like Syd Barrett was mentally insecure until 1967 suddenly. But would he have harboured fears of such a course? Possibly I guess.

 

[AutoTripper]

Can you take out health insurance for undiagnosed schizophrenica specifically being diagnosed later on I’m wondering.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Can you take out health insurance for undiagnosed schizophrenica specifically being diagnosed later on I’m wondering.

I don’t know about in the US, but if you elect for mental health coverage here you are covered for undiagnosed conditions. But they can be really tricky. I had previously been diagnosed depressed so they ruled out a claim I made for being bipolar as it was a ‘pre-existing related condition’. Usually to get a lifetime payout in Australia for a health issue you need to hire a lawyer to sue your insurance company. That’s the only way I got my insurance company to payout. Took over a year of fighting them.

 

[unodelacosa]

It’s like an unseen fear, like, maybe it’s just me but I don’t fear becoming schizophrenic.

It's not just you; I don't fear this either. Besides, you and I are too old to become schizophrenic at this point. We know it happens four times more commonly in boys/men than in girls/women, and that it tends to present symptomatically from ages 18 to 25. Of course you don't fear something that unlikely to occur. That would be irrational. It also only affects 1% of the population, which is a significant number, don't get me wrong, but most people are better off fearing heart disease and cancer than schizophrenia if they're going to harbor fear of disease and disorder.

 

[unodelacosa]

I lived for nearly 6 months with Capgras delusion when my kid was really little. Totally destroyed family life.

Whoa, that's pretty serious. How did the situation resolve, assuming it did? EDIT: Forgive me if I'm being insensitive by asking, I'm just curious and find a bit fascinating this subject, though I'm aware it's not so charming to those affected by it. Which is why I'm curious what happened and what, if any, medications you've tried because of this, if I may ask.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's not just you; I don't fear this either. Besides, you and I are too old to become schizophrenic at this point. We know it happens four times more commonly in boys/men than in girls/women, and that it tends to present symptomatically from ages 18 to 25. Of course you don't fear something that unlikely to occur. That would be irrational. It also only affects 1% of the population, which is a significant number, don't get me wrong, but most people are better off fearing heart disease and cancer than schizophrenia if they're going to harbor fear of disease and disorder.

Even presenting with symptoms early on does not mean you will progress to a lifelong disabling form of schizophrenia. Capgras delusion is considered to be both rare and a part of schizophrenia so I was told it was “most likely” that I had schizophrenia and that it would get progressively worse. That was 25 years ago and I have not had any psychotic or delusional symptoms since then - despite copious amounts of stimulants and psychedelics and never sleeping. Basically I was a misdiagnosis.

What I fear now though is something emerging from the other direction. Like Alzheimers or dementia. That’s worth worrying about.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Whoa, that's pretty serious. How did the situation resolve, assuming it did? EDIT: Forgive me if I'm being insensitive by asking, I'm just curious and find a bit fascinating this subject, though I'm aware it's not so charming to those affected by it. Which is why I'm curious what happened and what, if any, medications you've tried because of this, if I may ask.

It happened in Singapore 20 or 25 years ago at a time when there were almost no psychiatrists in the country and mental health problems were officially treated as a form of malingering at best amongst the locals. I saw one Western doctor there who pronounced the likelihood of Schizophrenia and he advised me to stop drinking and work on my anxiety. As far as I can recall the only medicine I took at the time was beta blockers. It’s probably lucky I was in Singapore because in a western country I would have been institutionalised as a danger to my infant kid (who I believed was a fake) and dosed to the eyeballs with a first gen antipsychotic.

Eventually it just disappeared. I think I recognised that the fake kid was still just a little kid and so needed to be treated carefully and lovingly even if he was not my real son so I began doing stuff with him rather than flat out ignoring or avoiding him which I did when it first began. Then over time the delusion evaporated. Although these days his behaviour is so unlike me I sometimes think he may have been sired by the postman.

 

[unodelacosa]

Even presenting with symptoms early on does not mean you will progress to a lifelong disabling form of schizophrenia. Capgras delusion is considered to be both rare and a part of schizophrenia so I was told it was “most likely” that I had schizophrenia and that it would get progressively worse. That was 25 years ago and I have not had any psychotic or delusional symptoms since then - despite copious amounts of stimulants and psychedelics and never sleeping. Basically I was a misdiagnosis.

What I fear now though is something emerging from the other direction. Like Alzheimers or dementia. That’s worth worrying about.

Agreed. Parkinson's is something I fear a bit, too.

 

[unodelacosa]

It happened in Singapore 20 or 25 years ago at a time when there were almost no psychiatrists in the country and mental health problems were officially treated as a form of malingering at best amongst the locals. I saw one Western doctor there who pronounced the likelihood of Schizophrenia and he advised me to stop drinking and work on my anxiety. As far as I can recall the only medicine I took at the time was beta blockers. It’s probably lucky I was in Singapore because in a western country I would have been institutionalised as a danger to my infant kid (who I believed was a fake) and dosed to the eyeballs with a first gen antipsychotic.

Eventually it just disappeared. I think I recognised that the fake kid was still just a little kid and so needed to be treated carefully and lovingly even if he was not my real son so I began doing stuff with him rather than flat out ignoring or avoiding him which I did when it first began. Then over time the delusion evaporated. Although these days his behaviour is so unlike me I sometimes think he may have been sired by the postman.

I like the way you used logic and reason to undermine local feelings that you knew were incongruous with certain facts and how despite the psychological misgivings you took a humane approach in choosing to interact with the individual in question regarding your particular Capgras delusion experience. Thank goodness you found a doctor who could offer good and practical advice while you were in Singapore.

And yeah I agree you would've been prescribed Promethazine or Seroquel or something heavy like that, it bringing its own unique set of problems to your proverbial table. Glad to hear it didn't end that way.