Lysergamides LSD first timer. Questions and suggestions

[AutoTripper]

Yep, it’s a permanent alteration.
My wife has ONLY taken 12.5 µg and didn’t even feel a thing.
But, in the months since, she’s exhibited a marked thought shift on a number of topics.
I agree, for me at least, that the effects are lifelong. Just not face-melting everyday, but the way we think and how our world-model gets reshaped.

Hi man. I’m actually glad now I unfairly pulled you into a debate I created, or a firing line for all.

I look only at myself now. I learned a great lesson. I’ve zero issue, gripe, zero negative feeling towards a single member here, zero anger, feeling of insult, victim etc.

It’s helped me so much. I support all people I feel mean well ultimately. If I feel they don’t mean well, I naturally try to positively encourage them to change.

I don’t know about drugs, really, outside experience and a relative minuscule of research in a fairly damaged/compromised condition, but I’m good with human psychology, emotions, peace keeping, when I’m myself.

Sorry @DrumTripper just finally more at rest after long digestive upset today. Mum made new batch of strong Skunk edibles, good big dose about 100 mg’s THC possibly and silly amounts of kava, which on that and drug categories….

In my view, and some more, Kava isn’t actually a “sedative”.

It has a sedative action.

So, does weed, insulted at it’s rightful place of plant psychedelic being disputed and I support that too.

Kava too is I suggest. Just more subtly. It mellows, but consciousness still runs.

But, on the acid comments from you above, My mum, hippy, later speed and heroin addict until I was conceived, not a single “actual” lol drug ever since, cannabis, alcohol… 8 times in the 70’s, she took acid. Loved it. Handled it. The GOOD old Merry days, “laughing in the graze”.

Same dose each time. Half a proper microdot. 280-300 ug is a fair estimate.

Half was taken by many for a full trip.

2 years ago, just 7.5 micrograms, was an infinitely more impactful and initially, because she honestly expected no effects, shell shocking experience she had, more than her 8 proper trips on 140-150 ug.

It ended very well. Like, next days, refreshed, at ease, happy.

But that is an example of how things can vary and change, and be quantified.

That’s really interesting about your wife’s experience too @DrumTripper .I really believe in this. But I also consider, it works varyingly depending on individual.

Speaking for myself, right, wrong, arrogant, polite, (funny?), one thing I am, and it’s scarily rare in my observations every time I go out in public- is conscious.

You don’t need to be clever to be conscious. It’s a gift that can set you free. Like, true consciousness, aliveness and freeness of thought etc.

I suffer a nightmarish daily physical living, but give me basic comfort, necessities, bonus with opportunities on top like some sort of basic normal, pain free living and simple abode….I am so free. Mentally. It’s beautiful. I suffer, but that is actually worthy compensation.

I don’t know how many people feel strongly that way, in a mental, philosophical and emotional sense.


Sorry, off track. Those Skunk edibles have tripped me out a bit.


So I do think, not everybody “does so much” necessarily with each Microgram.

Like, it’s the potential for the consciousness to continually respond, alter, grow, not cap it.

That’s also what I think was Syd Barrett’s downfall. He didn’t just take god knows how much acid, he had the strength and depth of imagination to access a deeper level of tripping, I believe.

I still just don’t buy the Schizophrenia- suggestions really.

I’ll leave it there, so stoned. Sorry @DrumTripper went on, meant to say, glad I did draw you here, have always loved chatting with you on this, take care bruv gotta go well cained.

 

[DrumTripper]

Right on, @AutoTripper enjoy the day!
I’m glad this thread evolved the way it did, and I also took time to reflect on the way my own responses could have negatively nudged things (did’t mean to offend anyone).

Your mom’s experience is very interesting and shows how effects can and do get affected by season or age, wellness, foods, set/setting, everything really.
I’ve had seriously bad times even on as little 50ug, but only physically suffering. Mostly, though it’s smooth sailing up to around 350. Then shit starts getting Rick ‘n Morty.

hope the allergies and stuff ease up for you however it can!

 

[AutoTripper]

Right on, @AutoTripper enjoy the day!
I’m glad this thread evolved the way it did, and I also took time to reflect on the way my own responses could have negatively nudged things (did’t mean to offend anyone).

Your mom’s experience is very interesting and shows how effects can and do get affected by season or age, wellness, foods, set/setting, everything really.
I’ve had seriously bad times even on as little 50ug, but only physically suffering. Mostly, though it’s smooth sailing up to around 350. Then shit starts getting Rick ‘n Morty.

hope the allergies and stuff ease up for you however it can!

Thanks mate. On that, I just wanted to say, because ditto, that’s why I think twice about the low doses. The mega ones, In pure spontaneous excitement, I just grab a load of tabs and shove in mouth.

Because the lower doses like 50 ug can be a rocker or just a lovely comfortable warm glow and level of LSD for you to appreciate without it feeling like you have sacrificed a day, routine, energy amount etc, for a trip, but with weed after the peak, it’s a really pleasant, colourful and peaceful end to the day.

It’s hit me really hard other times.



But…my point. In relation to all above, I’ve honestly never had a bad time, no anxiety, no regrets, on 1000 ug. The DMN (or is it DFN?), is simply ditched so instantly on that exact dose, I can temporarily drift into a nothing knowing abyss for a short while after visuals get crazy and it’s increasingly hard to stay cognisant….then I snap round and have the best trip.

 

[Ismene2]

I can confirm - have a cousin who was diagnosed with schizophrenia. He was not diagnosed until after a few lsd trips in his twenties.
My understanding is that it can magnify or bring out latent conditions, so caution especially to the young.

Why is the lsd relevant? People were developing schizophrenia long before lsd was invented - rates have remained constant for 100 years

 

[Jabberwocky]

In a fit if frustration and boredom I ate 30 tabs the day before yesterday which was about 3-4 days after I’d last experienced anything like tripping. It was also 48 hours since I’d had meth and 24 hours since I’d had ketamine. I’d also started taking 5 mg Abilify and 25 mg seroquel because I was worried I was feeling AP withdrawal symptoms. I had 10 tabs and waited 90 minutes and felt basically nothing so ate another 10 and then another 90 minutes and had the last ten thinking ‘what the fuck, why not?’. Mainly I was already in a state of anxiety, frustration and confusion and was quite stupid in a general sense.

I felt a general general sense of discombobulation which moved into a total sense of exhaustion (possible meth methdrawal) then depression then dysthymia and now I just feel a little emotional about a few things, have cried a little and feel like I have a serious case of concussion. A bit dizzy and ringing in my ears. Unable to concentrate on anything. Total waste of time and money.

No idea really if it was tolerance or the AP’s that stopped such a big dose from leading to a proper trip. Probably both. But combined they proved that the size of the dose effectively meaningless after a point.

 

[DrumTripper]

Because until he took lsd, no one suspected anything was amiss.
Because when he’d take acid, he’d exhibit very disturbing behaviour and was having way too serious effects for the amount taken.
We’d all be tripping and laughing and he’d be wildly paranoid (waaaay beyond “normal” drug paranoia) and was starting to put himself in danger with the delusions.

It has been a very destabilizing element for him.
He lives semi-normally now and is high-functioning, but has abstained from PDs for over 20 years now.
Not saying the acid did this on its own, but may have accelerated the onset and development of his illness.

He took it first at age 11.

I’d be curious to see some research on the global prevalence and epidemiology of the disease over the past 100 years; if it’s rate is stable, I’m not sure what that proves, but it’s very difficult to identify changes in population/incidence with regard to any narrowing of diagnostic criteria and this has been shown to falsely appear as a reduction in incidence.
So it’s not conclusive yet, but it can’t help a potential mind in the edge, especially at such a young age.
Certainly an outlier, but if you’re young, maybe wait a bit?
I was 14, and think that was a tad too soon to have the veil pulled back, but ymmv.

 

[Ismene2]

But if nobody was on acid\cannabis 100 years ago and a billion people have taken them in the last 30 years wouldnt you see a rise in cases? Surely the vast increase in useage over the last 30 years would have had some effect

I think its pretty much established its genetic in origin - nothing to do with lsd. Its like syd - saying he took acid is exciting and dramatic and rock n roll - saying he was mentally ill just like the other 50,000 schizophrenics who never took acid is boring.

 

[AutoTripper]

wouldnt you see a rise in cases?

We aren’t saying cause. But it depends on whether a true Schizophrenic could go undiagnosed for a lifetime, or if it would come out eventually anyway.

I can’t help feel there may be undiagnosed schizophrenics out there who if they used either of these drugs, may see a pronounced manifestation of the mental disorder.

It’s all stats and splitting hairs though. It shouldn’t need to be so clinical, we aren’t trying to draw up charts and prove a fact.

I thought or maybe assumed it was more commonly understood, LSD and weed can be the most triggering drugs for the disorder.

Whatever the graph line looks like the past X years, but also, cannabis didn’t arrive 100 years ago. It actually disappeared over 100 years ago for reason number one- out with the old- in with the Pharmaceutical.

I wonder what cannabis was like in 1850 UK.

And Psilocybin too, around a long time I’d say. Would likely not differ much in triggering effect. Just very likely to destabilise each time an already schizophrenic (like, What type of Schizophrenic are you? “Oh you know, just an already one.”

“Got you. I’m a Not-Yet.”

 

[Ismene2]

Schizophrenia appears in your late teens\twenties - its not waiting all your life for a trigger, if there is such a thing as a "trigger" for it. One things certain - john lennon took a helluva lot more acid than syd did and never developed schizophrenia.

Im saying that 100 years ago or even 70 years ago, cannabis use in the uk was practically nill. Now there are milions of people taking the strongest weed imaginable - where is the increase in schizophrenia?

If you introduce cigarettes to a population that hasnt smoked before you get an explosion in lung cancer rates. Cause and effect

I think you might be mistaking drug war propaganda for real world evidence. The cause of schizophrenia appears to be genetic - saying its acid i just DEA nonsense.

 

[AutoTripper]

Schizophrenia appears in your late teens\twenties - its not waiting all your life for a trigger, if there is such a thing as a "trigger" for it. One things certain - john lennon took a helluva lot more acid than syd did and never developed schizophrenia.

Im saying that 100 years ago or even 70 years ago, cannabis use in the uk was practically nill. Now there are milions of people taking the strongest weed imaginable - where is the increase in schizophrenia?

If you introduce cigarettes to a population that hasnt smoked before you get an explosion in lung cancer rates. Cause and effect

I think you might be mistaking drug war propaganda for real world evidence. The cause of schizophrenia appears to be genetic - saying its acid i just DEA nonsense.

Okay, I’ll try another angle. My mate, he goes in and out of being sectioned for varying lengths of time.

Supposing he was on course to stay out of hospital for another year, one single use of LSD will always result in very imminent sectioning for a good 6 months usually.

Cannabis, just brings out his Schizophrenia and delusions very heavily, acutely. He’s unbearably uncomfortable and awkward to be around, so withdrawn, detached, dark place and energy.

He just cannot use cannabis and not experience a massive increase in his mania and delusions, and is visibly in turmoil and totally unsociable.

That’s actually what I was meaning I think, I didn’t start claiming though I’m not sure, well cained, that it’s a case of loads of “budding” lol schizophrenics fully breaking out at whatever age they use these drugs.

But once it has, we’re saying, they can become totally unstable, so far gone in delusion, resulting in hospitalisation, or the very least obvious changes, difficulty, inability to interact, catatonic when they do use them.

So it’s more a management thing, to steer clear or risk repercussions and a big shake up to how things are for them at that time.

 

[AutoTripper]

Schizophrenia appears in your late teens\twenties - its not waiting all your life for a trigger, if there is such a thing as a "trigger" for it. One things certain - john lennon took a helluva lot more acid than syd did and never developed schizophrenia.

Im saying that 100 years ago or even 70 years ago, cannabis use in the uk was practically nill. Now there are milions of people taking the strongest weed imaginable - where is the increase in schizophrenia?

If you introduce cigarettes to a population that hasnt smoked before you get an explosion in lung cancer rates. Cause and effect

I think you might be mistaking drug war propaganda for real world evidence. The cause of schizophrenia appears to be genetic - saying its acid i just DEA nonsense.

Again, I, nor DrumTripper, said, LSD causes Schizophrenia.

We both know people personally officially diagnosed with long running severe cases for whom those two drugs really must be avoided.

Not grand theories at all like, since LSD has been widely used, there has been a linear rise in Schizophrenia because LSD causes it.

We never actually said that?

 

[prince_igor]

Yes.

If you're apprehensive about it, you can start with a low dose such as the 1/4 tab you suggested. You'll likely have some mild visuals and euphoria. Tripping has a lot to do with "set and setting", which means the situation, timing, environment and people you're tripping with have a lot to do with how the trip goes.

old post but ...

low dose will have you fighting side effects without the majestic psychedelic halo to soften the blow.

shrooms low dose is cool high dose is scary.

acid low dose it often uncomfortable high dose is something else altogether.

often when taking a low dose at home you will hide in your room but a higher dose ie over 100 mics will

have you out exploring the world.

 

[prince_igor]

Again, I, nor DrumTripper, said, LSD causes Schizophrenia.

We both know people personally officially diagnosed with long running severe cases for whom those two drugs really must be avoided.

Not grand theories at all like, since LSD has been widely used, there has been a linear rise in Schizophrenia because LSD causes it.

We never actually said that?

your talking medical diagnosis here.

some refs please.

I do agree to an extent but refs make people listen.

 

[AutoTripper]

your talking medical diagnosis here.

some refs please.

I do agree to an extent but refs make people listen.

The references are as stated My own and DrumTripper’s direct first hand observation and testimony.

I’ve not researched the topic and scoured for proof, I just know what applies with my friend and I’ve heard of similar accounts over time.

So it’s not misinformation, nor dangerous but right on the core theme of harm reduction, science is always going to be behind.

I’m just saying I would urge caution to Schizophrenics using those two drugs, going by what I have observed and has been observed by others.

 

[Ismene2]

Someone suggested syd and peter green took acid and never came back - I consider him a pretty bog standard schizophrenia case. The lsd was irrelevant.

If we are saying lsd can affect psychotic people negatively then i would agree - but obviously any stressful experience in life can do the same. If lsd and cannabis vanished from the earth tomorrow your friend would have an episode caused by something else, thats just how psychosis is. Sometimes there doesnt even have to be a "cause" - obviously there are millions of people in mental hospitals who have never touched lsd in their entire life.

Ive got a friend who is schizophrenic. Never touched lsd in his life. Ive eaten 25 kilos of magic mushrooms and am as fit as a butchers dog. Go figure.

 

[AutoTripper]

Someone suggested syd and peter green took acid and never came back - I consider him a pretty bog standard schizophrenia case. The lsd was irrelevant.

If we are saying lsd can affect psychotic people negatively then i would agree - but obviously any stressful experience in life can do the same. If lsd and cannabis vanished from the earth tomorrow your friend would have an episode caused by something else, thats just how psychosis is. Sometimes there doesnt even have to be a "cause" - obviously there are millions of people in mental hospitals who have never touched lsd in their entire life.

Ive got a friend who is schizophrenic. Never touched lsd in his life. Ive eaten 25 kilos of magic mushrooms and am as fit as a butchers dog. Go figure.

I mentioned Peter Greene. I made no comments or assertions about his mental, psychological state in general, schizophrenic label etc.

He tripped a lot I believe, was pretty okay mostly until one particular single trip on that Owsley/Sands Orange Sunshine acid.

I didn’t suggest he manifested as a Schizophrenic, nor disputed it.

He took that acid that day and went into a shell for 25 years, fittingly, before coming pretty fully around, gigging again even.

“Cooh. That was something.” He said about it, as his eyes gazed away from the camera.

And look, I’m not arguing this, just sharing my experience. You do appear to not be following my meaning I feel.

I’m not saying one bit, psychedelics lead to or cause schizophrenia.

I’m not saying, your schizophrenic friend who’s never taken LSD proves LSD is not required to be Schizophrenic (it does indeed demonstrate that, which I never disputed), and therefore is ample evidence that my and others actual suggestion cannot apply- that these drugs can be extremely problematic and destabilising for Schizophrenics.

And likewise, I’m not suggesting at all either that you will be lucky not to turn schizophrenic if you consume a tonne of hallucinogens.

I just said initially, it’s not beyond my consideration that Syd Barrett was an acid casualty, they do exist, as likely as a schizophrenic.

If a Schizophrenic was due to emerge at age 19, and they took LSD age 14, none of us can say whether their Schizophrenia would emerge sooner as a result.

I wasn’t even claiming that. I just naturally pondered it along the way somewhere.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe we are not quite on the same page with the definition of schizophrenia? Schizophrenia has a grab bag of symptoms, many of which cross-over with a range of Psychotic disorders. The question of whether a certain drug increases the chances on ANY type of psychotic disorder is probably a bit more important than whether it brings on just schizophrenia. For the record schizophrenia has a number of non-psychotic symptoms which include (together with bouts of psychosis).

• Disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
• Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
• Negative symptoms (i.e., diminished emotional expression or avolition).

Lots of things get misdiagnosed as schizophrenia and there is a problem with schizophrenia being overdiagnosed in younger people (teens and 20s) when the root disorder is some kind of anxiety disorder or bipolar.

Conditions That Can Seem Like Schizophrenia

Other conditions can have symptoms similar to schizophrenia. Learn what they are, how they are different, and how to get the right diagnosis.

www.webmd.com

 

[Ismene2]

I get your gist auto but the problem with these "he took lsd and never came back" tales is people who havnt a clue will immediately leap on lsd as the "cause".

On exactly the same day greeny took acid there would have been a million other people who also went mad and never came back who didnt take lsd. The trouble is no-ones going to say "he did the washing up and never came back" - because there hasnt been a propaganda campaign about washing the dishe s sending you mad.

Far more people have gone mad on a day they washed the dishes or put their shoes on than after taking lsd. People go mad all the time - trying to pinpoint a specific thing you did on that day is futile

 

[Jabberwocky]

I get your gist auto but the problem with these "he took lsd and never came back" tales is people who havnt a clue will immediately leap on lsd as the "cause".

On exactly the same day greeny took acid there would have been a million other people who also went mad and never came back who didnt take lsd. The trouble is no-ones going to say "he did the washing up and never came back" - because there hasnt been a propaganda campaign about washing the dishe s sending you mad. pe

Far more people have gone mad on a day they washed the dishes or put their shoes on than after taking lsd. People go mad all the time - trying to pinpoint a specific thing you did on that day is futile

Yeah there is no real way prevalence and causality can be scientifically verified. It’s basically just arguing from anecdote. Based on statistics of LSD usage at all age levels there must be millions of trips taken by millions of people that do not result in what we pathologise as a mental illness. That said, I’ve had trips where I’ve been anxious I would get stuck mentally in that state. Sometimes that was when I was falling into a kind of catatonic depersonalised state. But I have had so many mental health problems and diagnoses that if acid was triggery I would have been long institutionalised. I always come back none the worse for wear. Though sometimes it might be 2-3 days before I’m convinced of that.

 

[Ismene2]

The problem is if someone goes mad and they are asked what they did that day they will go

"I woke up, put my shoes on, washed the dishes, took some lsd, went for a walk, put a sabbath album on..."

Can anyone guess the response of the listener? Thats right:

"Oh noooo dude! It was the SABBATH album! Everyone knows you must never listen to wheels of confusion by yourself.."