Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

[Xorkoth]

Scots are a whole different thing than Scotts, my friend.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Re: Gender roles

What does it mean to be a "Papa" or a "Dad?" According to Trump a father figure doesn't even have to be human, never-mind someone without a penis.

But when it comes to showing compassion for his living, breathing biological son, what does this "Dad" do?

 

[TheInvisibleStoner]

I have begun sensitivity training for my dog by wearing a dress around the house and while training her in the back yard and giving her commands in a high pitched falsetto voice.

Well at least I’m trying to, I can’t actually get her to come out of the kennel dressed like this. She knows something is not right and she doesn’t like it.

There is actually something to this.

I have a friend that is bi and likes to dress up from time to time. He looks like one scary chick since he is a construction worker, very broad shoulders, more than 2 sleeves worth of tattoos, and a beer belly from hell.

When he is dressed up, his cats hiss at him non stop. I think they are scared since its the same person, but not really. Or maybe they are just confused? They are female cats if that makes a difference.

 

[Deru]

When he is dressed up, his cats hiss at him non stop. I think they are scared since its the same person, but not really. Or maybe they are just confused? They are female cats if that makes a difference.

I have a rescue cat that is terrified of men. It took years and years and years for her to finally warm up to me, but even my voice sometimes makes her nervous. When it comes to my wife, I've never seen a cat and human bond so strong.

With people she doesn't know, if men come over you won't even know she exists she will hide the entire time (half the time I get stuck looking for her because my wife is afraid she ran away). But, if it's just females, she will come out and be sociable.

There is a lot of built in evolutionary behavior in all of us as to how we perceive each sex and react, which in and of itself is somewhat oversimplified as it's more appropriately defined as a spectrum (in terms of sex versus gender).

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Always wondered if there's a connection between gay guys acting like women and trans people. I'm bisexual but I prefer men to be men. If you've got a naturally feminine voice that doesn't bother me, but I don't get female/male impersonators. People seem to put a tremendous amount of effort into being someone else. Just be who you are? I don't really get it.

 

[mal3volent]

Just be who you are?

That's what they're trying to do. Unfortunately they have to deal with people who say shit like you just did. They aren't impersonating anyone. That's just who they are. There's no such thing as "men being men". The entire concept of "man" changes depending on what culture or time period you find yourself in.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I'm not trying to offensive. Just being who I am. What I mean by impersonation is I know gay guys that changed their voice and their mannerisms when they came out as gay. Not trying to be offensive. I just don't get it and I'm not personally attracted to men who act like girls. The attractive thing about men is that they're men. Nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately they have to deal with people who say shit like you just did.

Like I said, I'm just being me. Unfortunately I have to deal with people who say shit like you just did.

 

[mal3volent]

I know gay guys that changed their voice and their mannerisms when they came out as gay.

I'm about to blow your mind okay? But did you ever consider they were actually repressing their true self to conform with society then when they came out they simply dropped the act?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Sure, that's a pretty obvious possibility. I have considered it. Not really what I'm asking though. Maybe I'm not being clear. We seem to have a bigger communication gap than I have with other people. What I'm saying is: what's the connection between trans and gay people? Why do some gay guys act like women and some lesbians act like men? If it's their true self are they trans or half trans or something? You probably don't have all the answers to these questions. Not trying to be offensive here. It's just something I don't get and I'm not alone. Would genuinely like to understand why many lesbian women dress and act like men. Is there some overlap with trans or is it something else? I've always found it to be odd. I know lots of gay guys and lesbians that act like men and women respectively, so clearly it isn't inherent to male or female homosexuality. Is there a term for it?

 

[Deru]

@birdup.snaildown

I think you're trying to define absolutes of human behavior and not realizing how large of a spectrum we all lie on. We're complex beings, and there is very little that can be pinned down in terms of absolutes.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Deru

Yeah, I dunno. It seems to be a cultural thing. The camp gay guys I know are all part of the gay scene. When they remove themselves from that scene, their personalities tend to get less female. Same goes for lesbians that I know. I'm not convinced it is nature rather than nurture.

I'm not trying to define anything. Just asking a question.

 

[JessFR]

Does it even matter?
Just let them act however they like, why does it matter what the reasons are?

I mean for instance, I don't understand how some people can truly consider themselves to be a third gender, or no gender entirely, I don't really grasp what that really means.

But I don't have too understand it to accept it.

 

[Deru]

When they remove themselves from that scene, their personalities tend to get less female

This is also not absolute. Our environment does, absolutely, factor in here. It's just not the only factor.

We are all social beings and the social factors of the society we live in shapes each and everyone one of us and it's fluid.

So what you're describing here is merely normal human behavior for all of us (i.e. our behaviors will change based upon the environment we are in)

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Does it even matter?
Just let them act however they like, why does it matter what the reasons are?

I mean for instance, I don't understand how some people can truly consider themselves to be a third gender, or no gender entirely, I don't really grasp what that really means.

But I don't have too understand it to accept it.

It doesn't matter. I'm not disallowing anyone to act however they like. I'm just curious about the reasons. This is a discussion forum and the thread is about gender identity. So, I thought I'd ask a question. It seems like questions aren't welcome? I don't have to understand it. Not sure what acceptance means in your case, since you don't grasp what it means. You said "let them act however they like" and "accept it". Not sure how asking a question is preventing me from doing either of those things any more than not grasping non-binary genders (like you)? Maybe I'm missing something.

So what you're describing here is merely normal human behavior for all of us.

Sure, people pick up mannerisms from different cultural environments but the change in personality seems to be quite dramatic within the gay/lesbian scene. It's unlike any other environmental influence I've witnessed and therefore I wouldn't use the word normal to describe it.

 

[JessFR]

In and of itself I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to ask the questions.

But, most of us are probably straight and don't really know the answer.

If you're detecting hostility for having asked these questions, it's probably because a lot of the time when people ask these kinds of questions it's part of trying to argue that it in some way is wrong or shouldn't be accepted.

Sure you may not be doing that but it's why there might be some hostility towards it.

 

[Deru]

I'm just curious about the reasons.

I think it's fine to explore this as long as the discussion remains productive.

 

[Deru]

Sure, people pick up mannerisms from different cultural environments but the change in personality seems to be quite dramatic within the gay/lesbian scene. It's unlike any other environmental influence I've witnessed and therefore I wouldn't use the word normal to describe it.

What is normal, to begin with?

Even if we look to psychology, mental disorders are diagnosed differently from culture to culture because of the intricate factors that define well-adjusted.

So you would have to take into account what the societal and cultural norms are to even begin to somehow define normal, and even then, we all exist on an incredibly large and complex spectrum and our behavior can vary greatly depending upon the reinforcing variables of the environment we find ourself in.

So, in terms of your argument, all that suggests to me, is they are normal and functional human beings.

 

[JessFR]

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some overlap between gender identity and sexuality in the way you're suggesting.

I mean, most women are attracted to men, most men are attracted to women. Some of that is culturally enforced but I'd say to a substantial degree it's simply that whatever makes someone neurologically more male or female has overlap with whatever neurologically controls sexuality.

So, even putting aside the probably significant cultural influence, there's probably some underling biological reasons gay men are more likely to act effeminate and gay women more likely to act masculine.

But, these are strongly culturally reenforced behaviors. And to the degree that there's a biological involvement it's clearly a pretty mild one. Given there are plenty of women who behave just like most other women but are attracted to women, and the same with men.

So yea, taking a stab at this question which I feel like again emphasizing I'm in no way especially knowledgeable in, not knowing much about how sexuality or gender identity exists biologically, and not being a part of any of the lgbtiq categories.

But my guess would be that yes there's some biological influences that make gay men more likely to behave effeminate, and the reverse with gay women. On top of the strong cultural influences.

But again, it really doesn't matter what the reasons are. All that matters is that people get to be themselves and be allowed to be happy about being themselves, and be shown respect for who they feel themselves to be. Everything else is just an acedemic discussion.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I have a theory. Historically (because of homophobia and a strict binary attitude towards gender) gay men were labelled sissies and pansies. It was uncomfortable for straight men to think about straight acting gay guys. It still is for many insecure straight men. Better to be able to label them and recognize them as something different. If they act like women, you can easily identify them and you won't have to worry about them looking at your junk in the changing room. Also if they act differently to you, then you don't have to consider the possibility that you have these tendencies yourself. Psychologists say that most homophobia comes from insecurities about your own sexuality.

Straight acting gay guys historically tended to be in the closet, from what I understand. So it makes sense as homosexuality becomes more and more accepted by society that there are more and more straight acting gay guys. Within the broader gay community (less so in the club scene) there are a lot of guys who aren't attracted to camp feminine guys. If you have a look at profiles on hookup sites, an increasing number of guys say they specifically want guys that act like guys.

Having said all that, the trans movement doesn't fit in with this theory. Most MTF trans people don't get the downstairs surgery. The reason typically stated in conversations I've had with trans people isn't because of limitations with surgery but because they like their genitals. It seems like the more accepted homosexuality becomes in society, people are splitting off in opposite directions. Gay guys are becoming more "straight acting" and at the same time other guys are becoming trans women. Perhaps now that the freedom exists to be anything you want, everyone is free to be who they truly are?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

What is normal, to begin with?

Firstly, I didn't introduce the word normal to the discussion. You did. Just saying that because the word normal is a bit heated these days (like everything else it seems) because the opposite of normal is abnormal and that has negative connotations.

Normally people have five toes on each foot. Normally we have either male or female genitals. Normally men have two testicles. Normally, democrats are crazy left wing lunatics.

It is abnormal for people to have six toes. Intersex conditions are abnormal. Having one or three testicles is clinically abnormal. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Again, I didn't introduce the word normal. You did.

The pitch of our voice is defined by biology. This is why men have deeper voices. When it comes to camp gay guys, most of the female behavior they mimic is non-biological (and men/women vary culturally) so biological normality doesn't apply I suppose. I know gay guys who appear to consciously vary the pitch of their voice depending on how deep they are in the club scene and who they are talking to at any given moment. I find this peculiar. The other mannerisms may just be them being themselves, but forcing the pitch up on your voice seems odd to me.