Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

[JessFR]

What I'm curious about, as I hinted at before...

What does it mean to be gender neutral, or whatever the label is for not identifying as either gender, or considering yourself a third gender.

What does that actually mean? What does that imply and feel like?

I dunno, but I find it fascinating.

I'll admit though it'd be tough for me to use a third set of pronouns. But out of respect I'd give it my best to try and use them.

I figure it's gotta be harder than feeling like you're just the wrong sex.

 

[Deru]

Firstly, I didn't introduce the word normal to the discussion. You did. Just saying that because the word normal is a bit heated these days (like everything else it seems) because the opposite of normal is abnormal and that has negative connotations.

Sure, people pick up mannerisms from different cultural environments but the change in personality seems to be quite dramatic within the gay/lesbian scene. It's unlike any other environmental influence I've witnessed and therefore I wouldn't use the word normal to describe it.

^ You actually did introduce the word normal to the discussion

The pitch of our voice is defined by biology. This is why men have deeper voices. When it comes to camp gay guys, most of the female behavior they mimic is non-biological (and men/women vary culturally) so biological normality doesn't apply I suppose. I know gay guys who appear to consciously vary the pitch of their voice depending on how deep they are in the club scene and who they are talking to at any given moment. I find this peculiar. The other mannerisms may just be them being themselves, but forcing the pitch up on your voice seems odd to me.

I’m still not following how any of this is different than any other human behavior. We all adjust the pitch of our voices, and our personalities, constantly based on our environment and the unique variables of the situation we find ourself in. Some more than others, some less than others, but again, where in the spectrum does this become odd?

Isn't the truly beautiful thing about all of us our unqiueness and individuality that we bring to this world?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@JessFR I don't know what it feels like to be a man. I wager every man and every woman feels different. So, I don't understand how a woman could know that they feel like a man or vice-versa. I would never as a man presume to understand how it feels to be a woman. I don't align with how a lot of men feel but that doesn't make me female.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

^ You actually did introduce the word normal to the discussion

No I was using the world normal in response to your comment. You introduced it.

So what you're describing here is merely normal human behavior for all of us (i.e. our behaviors will change based upon the environment we are in)

I wouldn't use the word normal to describe it.

I’m still not following how any of this is different than any other human behavior. We all adjust the pitch of our voices, and our personalities, constantly based on our environment and the unique variables of the situation we find ourself in. Some more than others, some less than others, but again, where in the spectrum does this become odd?

What? I don't significantly raise or lower the pitch of my voice like that. I've pretty much only ever observed this with camp gay guys... not sure what you're talking about.

 

[JessFR]

@JessFR I don't know what it feels like to be a man. I wager every man and every woman feels different. So, I don't understand how a woman could know that they feel like a man or vice-versa. I would never as a man presume to understand how it feels to be a woman. I don't align with how a lot of men feel but that doesn't make me female.

Sure but like, what I'm saying is while obviously I can't be sure what it feels like to be a man, I can certainly imagine what it might be like to want to be a man easier than what it might be like to want to be.. neither?

 

[Deru]

@birdup.snaildown

Oh, I see now, I did use it first. Sorry about that, although my point still remains.

As for...

What? I don't significantly raise or lower the pitch of my voice like that. I've pretty much only ever observed this with camp gay guys... not sure what you're talking about

Right, so my question was at what point does it become odd and why do you believe this?

 

[Deru]

What does it mean to be gender neutral, or whatever the label is for not identifying as either gender, or considering yourself a third gender.

This may be a bit simplistic and not all encompassing of it's definition, but I believe it has to do with not accepting one specific gender expression and being allowed to exist somewhere in the spectrum between the two (male and female), or outside of it completely.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

birdup.snaildown said:


What? I don't significantly raise or lower the pitch of my voice like that. I've pretty much only ever observed this with camp gay guys... not sure what you're talking about

Right, so my question was at what point does it become odd and why do you believe this?

I don't think you read what I wrote. I said I don't significantly raise or lower the pitch of my voice. Come to think of it, I do raise the pitch of my voice sometimes when speaking to small children... but I'd never put on a high pitched voice talking to adults.

Sure but like, what I'm saying is while obviously I can't be sure what it feels like to be a man, I can certainly imagine what it might be like to want to be a man easier than what it might be like to want to be.. neither?

Wanting to be a man is different than believing you are a man in a woman's body. I understand wanting to be a man if you're a woman or vice-versa. There are still restrictions on what men and women can do in society. If the trans movement is part of the transition from a restricted view of gender roles in society to an unrestricted one I understand that. It makes sense to me that some men might want to wear make-up or dress more provocatively and why some women might want the opposite, but these things aren't inherently male or female and they aren't constant across all cultures. If this is just part of the deconstruction of gender roles in society, that makes total sense.

I'm kinda the opposite of you. It makes more sense to me to want to be neither or I guess (more specifically) to have the opportunity to be both. The way society defines gender historically disallows men and women to do certain things. If we take away these gender definitions, we can all do whatever we want. If a man wants to have long hair and wear a dress, who cares? Scotsmen have been doing this for hundreds of years. :D

What I don't understand is people taking hormones and surgically altering their bodies, particularly children being fed hormone blockers which stops puberty and causes all sorts of complications down the track like males having micropenises and (often) both genders developing fertility problems.

Gender is bullshit. It should be socially acceptable for women to vote and play competitive sports and be doctors. Similarly, men should be allowed to wear make-up and dresses if they like. I'd love to go full drag one day. Sometimes I put on panties and a garter belt. Why not?

The gender part of transgender makes sense to me, but I guess what confuses me is (if gender and sex are separate) why do transgender people often alter their physical bodies?

It seems like gender and sex are separate and they aren't separate?

I've never quite understood it.

 

[JessFR]

I don't think you read what I wrote. I said I don't significantly raise or lower the pitch of my voice. Come to think of it, I do raise the pitch of my voice sometimes when speaking to small children... but I'd never put on a high pitched voice talking to adults.



Wanting to be a man is different than believing you are a man in a woman's body. I understand wanting to be a man if you're a woman or vice-versa. There are still restrictions on what men and women can do in society. If the trans movement is part of the transition from a restricted view of gender roles in society to an unrestricted one I understand that. It makes sense to me that some men might want to wear make-up or dress more provocatively and why some women might want the opposite, but these things aren't inherently male or female and they aren't constant across all cultures. If this is just part of the deconstruction of gender roles in society, that makes total sense.

I'm kinda the opposite of you. It makes more sense to me to want to be neither or I guess (more specifically) to have the opportunity to be both. The way society defines gender historically disallows men and women to do certain things. If we take away these gender definitions, we can all do whatever we want. If a man wants to have long hair and wear a dress, who cares? Scotsmen have been doing this for hundreds of years. :D

What I don't understand is people taking hormones and surgically altering their bodies, particularly children being fed hormone blockers which stops puberty and causes all sorts of complications down the track like males having micropenises and (often) both genders developing fertility problems.

Gender is bullshit. It should be socially acceptable for women to vote and play competitive sports and be doctors. Similarly, men should be allowed to wear make-up and dresses if they like. I'd love to go full drag one day. Sometimes I put on panties and a garter belt. Why not?

The gender part of transgender makes sense to me, but I guess what confuses me is (if gender and sex are separate) why do transgender people often alter their physical bodies?

It seems like gender and sex are separate and they aren't separate?

I've never quite understood it.

This again comes down to another "we don't need to get it, just to respect it" position for me.

One reason I can absolutely see though, is men and women are treated differently. They just are. So if you want to be seen as a member of a different sex, obviously you're going to want to change your appearance. But in the end it doesn't matter why. So long as they feel more comfortable that way that's good enough for me.

The only issue I see is when it comes to children. And this is a question I don't have a solid opinion on. I don't feel like I know enough to rightfully have an opinion.

I feel like far too many people just leap to an answer because they feel that answers is self evident. When your position is one that has the potential to destroy lives, that's simply not good enough.

And I don't know nearly enough about the long term effects of puberty blockers, how many of those kids some to regret it, and other relevant questions to hold an opinion.

I am certain though that this has been made worse and caused more harm by having been politicized. Both by the right and by Trans activists.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I'm not sure if I have to respect doctors performing radical genital surgery or feeding children puberty blockers. I accept that adults can chose to do whatever they like with their bodies. I'm not going to try and stop them, but I'm not sure I have to respect their decision to do so. Ultimately, I think it is the wrong decision. They don't have to respect my attitude towards it, but it should be socially acceptable for different people to have different opinions. A lot of the time I mention trans stuff, people get offended. Strangely, cis people tend to be more offended than trans people. I think respect is probably the wrong word?

I don't feel like I know enough to rightfully have an opinion.

Everybody has the right to an opinion. Nobody knows enough about the long term effect of puberty blockers, because they haven't been doing it long enough to observe what happens five decades down the line. This is all experimental. There is no argument to justify performing medical experiments on children. Like I said, adults are another story. Some people get horns surgically inserted into their heads and permanent vampire teeth. I don't respect their decision to do so. I think it's odd. But, hey, they can do whatever they like I guess.

 

[Deru]

The only issue I see is when it comes to children. And this is a question I don't have a solid opinion on. I don't feel like I know enough to rightfully have an opinion.

I'll admit, I feel similar. It's concerning to me the problems it could potentially cause, but I really don't have a very good understanding of it to form a very good opinion on the matter either.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I said I don't significantly raise or lower the pitch of my voice. Come to think of it, I do raise the pitch of my voice sometimes when speaking to small children... but I'd never put on a high pitched voice talking to adults.

I wasn't implying you did, I was merely asking your opinion on when it becomes odd. I think context is important, and from the situations you described, I don't find that odd at all. I think it's completely normal to utilize what we can to present ourselves to the world as we want to be perceived.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I'm confused about what you mean by "becomes odd". I don't think I can explain it much more without repeating myself. My voice box defines the pitch of my voice. In order to speak in a higher pitch, I need to consciously change the way I'm speaking. It doesn't "become odd" at any point. It's odd generally. I'm always happy to suck a dick or two, but I don't see what that has to do with changing the pitch of my voice at all? I think this discussion has pretty much run it's course. Not sure I have anything else to add to it. We appear to be chasing our tails now.

 

[w01fg4ng]

raise or lower the pitch of my voice. speaking to small children... but I'd never put on a high pitched voice talking to adults.

Is it possible you are more comfortable around children because they are less judgmental?

People often times can be "out of the closet" yet still very much not confident in themselves.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Is it possible you are more comfortable around children because they are less judgmental?

People often times can be "out of the closet" yet still very much not confident in themselves

Not sure what that means? I've always been less comfortable around children. Never spent any time around kids until I had one of my own, so I never knew how to act. When my daughter was born, it was difficult to know how to act but that's long since passed. Whereas I was always confident around adults until my life turned upside down and now I'm less so because I'm riddled with self loathing for the things I've done but that has nothing to do with sexuality. I don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about my sex life. Most people are super repressed when it comes to sex. I'm quite comfortable talking about shit most people shy away from. Not sure if that answers your question?

 

[w01fg4ng]

This is gender discussion, not sexuality.

You said you have no problem heightening the pitch of your voice around children but you would NEVER do that in front of an adult because in your words, "men should be men." So maybe what you meant to say is men should be men except when around children? Did I get that right?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

No you didn't get that right. I'm still struggling to understand what you're saying. When I first had a kid, I refused to baby talk to her because I didn't wanna talk down to her and I always found it patronizing and annoying as a child when people did that to me. But after some time I found myself doing it because sometimes she'd get upset and I realized it wasn't about patronization. I would do anything to make her smile when she was sad, particularly in those early years when we couldn't communicate with verbal language so all I had was tone and body language... I don't know what any of this has to do with gender. I don't repress a natural tendency to raise the pitch of my voice when speaking to adults. I have a naturally deep voice, but my pitch might go up on certain words like if I'm asking a question. I just find it odd when some camp gay guys I know raise or lower the pitch of their voice (and adopt other female mannerisms) depending on who they're hanging around and how deep they are in the club scene. Does that make sense?

 

[w01fg4ng]

I just find it odd when some camp gay guys I know raise or lower the pitch of their voice (and adopt other female mannerisms)

If you were a fly on the wall watching yourself talk to children in a high pitched voice would you not also think you sound camp?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

No.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Looks pretty camp to me

 

[birdup.snaildown]

That wasn't a typical day for me. I usually wear less make up.