Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

It's ok. You can ease up on the performative cultural self-loathing. The majority of what you have written is conjecture by activist Western LGBTQ academics in Queer Studies. Actual history indicates that attitudes towards homosexuality varied widely across cultures and across time both in Africa and the East. In fact merely using the totalising concepts Africa and the East is almost pointless in this topic. Perhaps the greatest historical force in the history of the world for enforcing binary gender and sexual norms has been Islam - which was conquering and colonising vast swathes of Africa, Eastern Europe, and Asia centuries before Whitey got his act together and thought to go exploring.. What the English, French (and also Dutch) colonialists often did was formally codify into law proscriptions against homosexuality that already existed in cultural practice in the countries they colonised.

It is a sleght of hand practiced by Queer Theory to say that the first ever codification of law in those countries is the same as importing estern colonial values. In many many cases, the colonists incorporated existing traditions and practices into their new legal systems.

Lmao I have ZERO self-loathing. I'm fucking fantastic. I can just admit that my ancestors did some terrible thing. *I* did not. Obviously. Nothing I say is "performative". It's the internet: who GAF if strangers like you or not?

The reason that number was so low was because they asked people in SCHOOLS and COLLEGES in FRONT OF THEIR PEERS. Therefore it completely null and void as a statistic. It was also quite a few years ago and the amount of people who OPENLY identify as LGBT+ is rapidly rising due to increased awareness/tolerance etc.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Lmao I have ZERO self-loathing. I'm fucking fantastic. I can just admit that my ancestors did some terrible thing. *I* did not. Obviously. Nothing I say is "performative". It's the internet: who GAF if strangers like you or not?

Answer the questions, please.
It sounds like self-loathing.
@Atelier3 had very fair and correct points, but seems like you're not interested in answering them.

 

[atara]

By modus tollens, no. If a piece of clothing is acceptable for men to wear, then it's either men's clothing or gender-neutral, and wearing it isn't crossdressing. Therefore, crossdressing can never be socially acceptable.

Now, will it become "acceptable" for men to wear skirts? Well, a thousand years ago, pants were for peasants, and all noblemen wore skirts. So there's that.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Hey, it's okay. My little brother is gay too and used to crossdress when we were younger.
Can you please put out sources for those LBqT stats? If those numbers were true 1 in 5 - 1 in 6 people were gay. Lets say were in a bus made for 30 people and its full. Well, it should be on average 5 lbqt people there.
I just can't believe those stats without proper sources.
Also, please tell me more about how westerners ruined everything everywhere in world? Which eastern countries had transsexuality and french came in there? French colonized indochina and india, but I can't find any material on them oppressing the trans people there? Or them teaching the others to oppress trans people.
Please, sources on this one too. I really want them, because this sounds just self-loathing of some leftie.
I'd hate to be one of the first ones who prohibited slavery. British did it first, but yeah - they were cunts. Stop this self-loathing, it's actually disgusting.
What's the place where trans, gay and every lbqt people get to live free today? western civilization. What's the civilization that prohibited slavery at first? British and as time went on so did other westerners.
It's particularly European idea that you should NOT colonize. Only reason why Europeans were able to colonize so big areas was because they were so much more advanced, and in some ways - are still to this day.
However, the colonialism has always been happening. Europeans were just best at it because of their progress. They would be extremely good at it right now if they wanted to, but because of their European thinking and European philosphy, they choose not to.
Can't say same thing about Africans and slavery, since they seem to be enjoying it. Can't say same thing about Chinese and colonialism, since they're doing it to this day.
Don't you see the flaws in your arguments?
Edit, I looked statistics up and found out you probably got those numbers from your own head.
Studies from several nations, including the U.S., conducted at varying time periods, have produced a statistical range of 1.2 to 6.8 percent of the adult population identifying as LGBT.

But I'm LAZYYYYYY and just wanna blurt out all my opinions and ignore anyone who disagrees (um...mostly kidding)
I didn't say 20% of people were gay, I said LGBT+ meaning ABOUT that amount of people identify as gay OR bisexual OR transgender OR non-binary OR asexual OR queer OR gender-fluid etc etc.
Westerners did NOT ruin everything. IMO religion did. Islamic places especially are probably the most terrible places and of their own accord.
I agree with the next big chunk you say.
As for statistics, facts, studies etc - both of us either got them online or from other people....which therein lies the problem that just because you "learn facts" , especially ones online, there are by no means actually true or accurate,

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Whether it is acceptable or not depends a little bit on your view of how mental disorders and sexual fetishes should be treated and accomodated within society. Such men are suffering from a condition known autogynephilia in which they are aroused by seeing themselves as women. In my view, mental illnesses should be treated sympathetically and certainly not be the cause of violence or be criminalised. However, I also don't think that sexual fetishes (or really overt sexual behaviour of any kind) have a place in public and certainly not in the workplace.

It seems that in most cultures, in most times, some men have enjoyed imagining themsevles as women and being publicly perceived as women. In fact it is so universal that it should probably be considered an essential part of the human condition. Right up there with the desire to take intoxicants that we on BL are all so familiar with. Some cultures celebrated such men, some merely tolerated them, some killed them. However, many things that are a part of the human condition - like psychosis and narcissism - are things we endeavour to keep out of the public sphere.

Every human culture in every time has established rules and norms for the protection and advancement of that culture. For many cultures this has been around sexual practices. For some it has been around intoxication. All cultures sanction culturally aberrant behaviour in different ways ranging from ostracisation, to banishment, to violence, to incarceration. The reason behind this is that the strength and resiliance of the community is considered more important than the expression of individual idiosyncracies. However, as Enlightenment liberalism (which valued and sought to strengthen the social and the community) has developed into progressive liberalism (which hates the established social and the community), it has become morally rightious to say "Fuck You I'm An Individual' towards almost all established values and norm - especially sexual ones. Liberalism, unfortunately carries within it the seeds of its own destruction given that it offers respect and a voice to individuals whose goal is ultimately to destroy it from within.

Life in the 21st centruy western world would be infinitely better if we treated the public sphere, including work, as a place where community values prevalied and the private sphere as somewhere where people should be free to let it all hang out however they wish. However, the last thing I'd want is the barrier between public sphere and private sphere being enforced by the police or by vigilantes. It should be maintained through decent education, both at school and within the home.

Crossdressing is not a thing as a mental illness, the same way being transgender is a physical problem, not a psychological one. If a man with a penis believes he has a vagina (I think that's what you meant?) YES, that would be a delusional disorder.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Crossdressing is not a thing as a mental illness, the same way being transgender is a physical problem, not a psychological one. If a man with a penis believes he has a vagina (I think that's what you meant?) YES, that would be a delusional disorder.

What if man believes he would be better if he had his leg amputated?
That's body dysmorphia, but it's not treated like transgenderism - even tho they are extremely a like.
Why, if a man goes to doctor, and says "I want my penis cut off!"
He is validated and told "It's fine."
But when somebody goes to doctor and says "I want to be blind."
They're told that they're insane?
How come transgender people are extremely suicidal? Even the ones who get their gender surgery and even the ones who get their hormones.
The suicide rate doesn't even go down after the surgery so should we look up new ways to treat this? I see it as validating delusions and I have read COUNTLES stories of people going trans young and realizing that their dysphoria went nowhere.
Even the ones who normally pass as a girl, if they were before man and nobody ever questions their sexuality, are actually same level suicidal than the ones who experience so called "discrimination" - so the argument of discrimination causing around 40% suicide rate is INSANE. Even slaves didn't have that high suicide rates, so somebody not conforming your opinions about what you are shouldn't cause that high suicide rates. Look em up! Look them up on the internet!
You see, my rates for the amount of population which are lbqt were right. It's not 10-20%, that would be INSANE: That would require rest of population to have more than 2:1 children per 1 woman, if culture wants to kept alive. You think these people who make these requirements, who are professors in math and stuff, don't take stuff like that account? Only place where your numbers are true is located between your ears.
And I don't believe numbers I hear from people. I look numbers made by actual educated people. I do my research.
Here's a funny documentary
Here's story of a father and a son in same family going trans, the son was 13 and now the son hates his life, he keeps asking his family "Why did you let me do it?" and he is suicidal. The father writes about his feelings how he feels like a clown when he looks into mirror, he hates himself for getting conned that hard by the lbqt lobby and wishes he was stricter.
(yes, there is one)

 

[Xorkoth]

How come transgender people are extremely suicidal? Even the ones who get their gender surgery and even the ones who get their hormones.

Because of a lifetime of society and individuals hating and fearing them for what they are. Self-loathing, caused by loathing from all around making you think that who you are is wrong.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Because of a lifetime of society and individuals hating and fearing them for what they are. Self-loathing, caused by loathing from all around making you think that who you are is wrong.

Don't believe that to be the case, fully. I think they need actually more help with talking and stuff. I don't think that giving them hormones and mutilating their genitals leads to anything good.
I believe that there are underlying causes for transgenderism and it's diagnosed these days too easy. I have strong belief that in US there will be big lawsuits, because big pharma has lobbied doctors to give recipes for these things way too easy.
There has been interviews of doctors who say they're scared of what this will lead to, but they can't resist the agenda or they'll lose their jobs.

 

[JessFR]

I can't help notice that the same people who are all about small government and letting people run their own affairs are suddenly so big on using law to force their own agenda on people once those people happen to be say.. Transgender.. Gay.. Or really anyone other than themselves.

Seems like what it really means is "people like me should get to run their own affairs... Oh and everyone else's too!"

 

[Jabberwocky]

I can't help notice that the same people who are all about small government and letting people run their own affairs are suddenly so big on using law to force their own agenda on people once those people happen to be say.. Transgender.. Gay.. Or really anyone other than themselves.

Seems like what it really means is "people like me should get to run their own affairs... Oh and everyone else's too!"

I have never asked law to be forced on gay people or trans people. There should be certain laws, like age limit on gender changing surgeries and hormones.
Gay people? I don't care, but I don't believe that it's governments job to force churches to marry them. I don't really care about them.
Where did you get this opinion from?

 

[JessFR]

I have never asked law to be forced on gay people or trans people. There should be certain laws, like age limit on gender changing surgeries and hormones.
...
Where did you get this opinion from?

Sooo what you're just bitching that people do things you don't agree with but have no desire to actually see them stopped? You're OK with just letting the medical establishment decide this stuff with their patients and keeping the government out of it?

Okies.

Tbh I don't really care enough right now about arguing this, I withdraw my comment.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sooo what you're just bitching that people do things you don't agree with but have no desire to actually see them stopped? You're OK with just letting the medical establishment decide this stuff with their patients and keeping the government out of it?

Okies.

Tbh I don't really care enough right now about arguing this, I withdraw my comment.

Well, let's say if the person doing these deals with doctors is over a certain age limit, yes.
But I believe that even if parents allowed it, people under X age shouldn't be able to get into the gender changing.
I don't agree with them, but I don't believe that it's my job to change them.
I think the research should look into actual things which lower the suicide rate of these people.
These things they do to them are purely cosmetic and they can't really be reversed. Even men who start to take estrogen don't really know how it will affect them and I've done lots of research in this stuff. Some men said that they became so emotional that they couldn't handle it.
I believe that people should love themselves as they are.
Let's say you're a girl who dresses manly.
I have absolutely no problem with that.
Maybe the girl has anxiety, is taken to psychiatrist, the psychiatrist has a certain mindset and start speaking to her about transgenderism. This is when things go south.
The girl starts to believe that her anxiety and problems are caused because of he's actually man, while in fact she just may be a tomboy.
She should be offered psychiatric help and given real diagnosis for her problems. Psychiatrists are extremely expensive in US.
I just believe that the current way of handling things is not correct.
I've seen lots of pictures of transgender "neo-vaginas" and they look absolutely disgusting. It's basically an open wound and you have to keep a stick inside it to keep it open.
Also, there's hair growing in the walls of it and when you put the stick in there, it rips hair off and every once in a while you have to rip out the hairball out of the "neo-vagina"
They also smell disgusting, or so I've read. And the posts I've read are support forums for people with complications.
The research right now isn't enough.
There's lots of people who really really regret getting the surgery. Like really.
I believe that pharma money is a big problem. It caused opioid epidemic and I believe that just like in opioid case, it will lead to big lawsuits in transgender thing.
Why has percent of transgender people risen so much?
Why back in days it was mostly boys who want to be girls, but now it's girl who want to be boys?
This huge change in statistics is remarkable and shouldn't be not looked at. I think there's more to it than "people being more comfortable with it".
Thank you.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There is no doubt that transgenderism has become a political issue with particularly vicious lobbyists and supporters refusing to accept anything less than full and legislated government support for three things.

1. The only determinant of gender is self-identification
2. A transwoman is ontologically a woman, by virtue of self-identification, and must have access to all social goods that women are entitled to
3. The only medical response to self-identification as trans, at any age, is full affirmation and provision of the means of bodily modification.

Currently in the Western world, these three things are effectively no longer open for debate. Consequently, the pervasive normalisation (actually valorisation) of trans is leading to thousands of kids being channeled into the early medicalisation of their sexuality when they are most likely

A. Just confused because they are kids still growing into their sexuality
B. Butch lesbians or femme gays
C. Caught in social contagion and just trying to be cool and fit in

So basically, you have a sub-culture of sexually deviant men, who get their jollies by imagining themselves as women, aggressively turning the culture inside-out because no-one will take a stand and point out the logical incoherence, scientific bankruptcy, and often outright immorality of a large part of what they demand.

Trans activists are easily the most evil fuckers we have in society at the moment.

 

[Jabberwocky]

If a man with a penis believes he has a vagina (I think that's what you meant?) YES, that would be a delusional disorder.

If a man with a penis believes his is a woman, that also would be a delusional disorder.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There is no doubt that transgenderism has become a political issue with particularly vicious lobbyists and supporters refusing to accept anything less than full and legislated government support for three things.

1. The only determinant of gender is self-identification
2. A transwoman is ontologically a woman, by virtue of self-identification, and must have access to all social goods that women are entitled to
3. The only medical response to self-identification as trans, at any age, is full affirmation and provision of the means of bodily modification.

Currently in the Western world, these three things are effectively no longer open for debate. Consequently, the pervasive normalisation (actually valorisation) of trans is leading to thousands of kids being channeled into the early medicalisation of their sexuality when they are most likely

A. Just confused because they are kids still growing into their sexuality
B. Butch lesbians or femme gays
C. Caught in social contagion and just trying to be cool and fit in

So basically, you have a sub-culture of sexually deviant men, who get their jollies by imagining themselves as women, aggressively turning the culture inside-out because no-one will take a stand and point out the logical incoherence, scientific bankruptcy, and often outright immorality of a large part of what they demand.

Trans activists are easily the most evil fuckers we have in society at the moment.

Extremely good points and well written post. I wish I'd have the talent in English language to write posts like that.
And yeah, there's reason why there are own forums for the people who have complications. They aren't accepted by the community anymore once they say the regret it or something. It doesn't fit to their agenda.

 

[JessFR]

2. A transwoman is ontologically a woman, by virtue of self-identification, and must have access to all social goods that women are entitled to.

Jokes on them, our social goods are crap.

 

[atara]

There should be certain laws, like age limit on gender changing surgeries and hormones.

Why should age limits be determined by someone like you and not a doctor is what I'm wondering. What surgeons do you think are performing this operation who also know less than you about the implications? What doctors are prescribing hormones but you know better than them what they should be used for?

There is an age limit: it's the age at which a doctor feels the prescription is appropriate. Nobody's making big money selling sex hormones (see below) and ten-year-olds aren't doctor shopping for a fix. When a preteen is treated for gender dysphoria it happens because a lot of adults observed the child and decided it was the best course of action.

Maybe the girl has anxiety, is taken to psychiatrist, the psychiatrist has a certain mindset and start speaking to her about transgenderism. This is when things go south.

I don't think you know what a psychiatrist is, because you think that the problem is that they will talk to the patients too much, when anyone who has actually been to a psychiatrist knows it's a goddamn miracle when they give you enough time to explain what's wrong. It's true that some therapists, who are subject to much less schooling and licensure, and who are the people whom you actually have a lot of conversations with, might make a mistake in encouraging a child to see something a certain way, but therapists aren't making the final decision here, doctors are, and they tend to be much more conservative.

I believe that pharma money is a big problem. It caused opioid epidemic and I believe that just like in opioid case, it will lead to big lawsuits in transgender thing.

This doesn't make any sense. Like it really doesn't make any sense. There's big money in opioids because there are a lot of people whom you can prescribe them to and they're under patents. Transgenderism is rare so the patient audience is small and the profitability is also, therefore, small. Plus sex hormones are mostly generic last I checked.

 

[Jabberwocky]

This is an interesting analysis of just how much Billionaire money is behind the Trans agenda in the US

Who Are the Rich, White Men Institutionalizing Transgender Ideology?

Exceedingly rich, white men who invest in biomedical companies are funding myriad transgender organizations whose agenda will make them gobs of money.

thefederalist.com

 

[Jabberwocky]

Why should age limits be determined by someone like you and not a doctor is what I'm wondering. What surgeons do you think are performing this operation who also know less than you about the implications? What doctors are prescribing hormones but you know better than them what they should be used for?

There is an age limit: it's the age at which a doctor feels the prescription is appropriate. Nobody's making big money selling sex hormones (see below) and ten-year-olds aren't doctor shopping for a fix. When a preteen is treated for gender dysphoria it happens because a lot of adults observed the child and decided it was the best course of action.


I don't think you know what a psychiatrist is, because you think that the problem is that they will talk to the patients too much, when anyone who has actually been to a psychiatrist knows it's a goddamn miracle when they give you enough time to explain what's wrong. It's true that some therapists, who are subject to much less schooling and licensure, and who are the people whom you actually have a lot of conversations with, might make a mistake in encouraging a child to see something a certain way, but therapists aren't making the final decision here, doctors are, and they tend to be much more conservative.


This doesn't make any sense. Like it really doesn't make any sense. There's big money in opioids because there are a lot of people whom you can prescribe them to and they're under patents. Transgenderism is rare so the patient audience is small and the profitability is also, therefore, small. Plus sex hormones are mostly generic last I checked.

I said in the earlier post that I don't agree with what they do, but I'm not the one to make the choices. You misunderstood this one on purpose if you looked my post. There should be a legal age limit to body mutilation and there shouldn't be such a thing as puberty blockers, since data shows clearly that they don't work in the way what's intended. Suicide rates stay the same, even after surgeries and hormones.
There will be lawsuits, just give it time. Doctors can be scammed. They got scammed into giving opioids to the American people and they got scammed again.
Here's an article for you.
I hope you read enough of it, because there's part decided to medical professionals being harrasset.
"Caroline, who asked for me to use a pseudonym, is a Child Protection Officer with over 20 years’ experience. She told me: “There is no way that professionals can possibly pass on concerns [about children who identify as transgender] without being considered transphobic or bigoted. Many of us share the same concerns [about children being pushed into medical solutions] including friends of mine who are GPs, educational psychiatrists, social workers: all great people who work tirelessly for the good of young people. I see children changing their name, turning against their family, rewriting their past.” -The Independent"
"But there are some specific issues that make trans activist extremism unique. It is the first civil rights issue to come of age in the rise of social media, magnifying its power to attack others and foment the well-known problem of internet hyperbole and noxious communication. Unlike like the women’s rights, homosexual rights, and black civil rights movements, the trans movement seeks to redefine the meaning of biology and words like “female” and “homosexual” other groups use to describe themselves. It displaces girls and women from positions they otherwise would have held (i.e. women are losing to trans women in sports for example.)"

THREATS & CENSORSHIP RESULT IF TRANS ACTIVISTS DEMANDS ARE NOT MET REGARDING CHILDREN & TEENS & GD — Gender Health Query

A result of an increase of trans visibility & trans activism has been hostility, threats, & attempts to censor discussions of youth medical transition & impacts on female rights. This is the norm now for health professionals, journalists, educators, parents, desisters, & dissenting t

www.genderhq.org

 

[JessFR]

I don't think you know what a psychiatrist is, because you think that the problem is that they will talk to the patients too much, when anyone who has actually been to a psychiatrist knows it's a goddamn miracle when they give you enough time to explain what's wrong.

Lol. So true.

"I'm sorry that's all the time we have today."

But it's only been like 40 minutes... And 20 of those were you asking questions I answered last time!