What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[G_Chem]

@epic11 - So you’d say the effects sound somewhat in line with MehDMA?

@Glubrahnum - Yea from my knowledge the only salts really commonly used are tartrate, phosphate and citrate, beyond HCl of course.

I do remember reading reports on pills that contained the phosphate which were said to be good if I recall correctly. Pretty sure they were the “HQ” press coming out of SE Asia in early 2000’s. They were produced in large quantities for sure. I wonder why that salt was used, maybe simply the easiest acid for them to get?

-GC

 

[epic11]

@epic11 - So you’d say the effects sound somewhat in line with MehDMA?

@Glubrahnum - Yea from my knowledge the only salts really commonly used are tartrate, phosphate and citrate, beyond HCl of course.

I do remember reading reports on pills that contained the phosphate which were said to be good if I recall correctly. Pretty sure they were the “HQ” press coming out of SE Asia in early 2000’s. They were produced in large quantities for sure. I wonder why that salt was used, maybe simply the easiest acid for them to get?

-GC

Pretty damn close ya. I may do an experiment and sniff out some LABELED HCL and see if its different.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Are there any user reports for the other salts mentioned? Looking at those for the citrate salt isn't consistent with my experience of MehDMA as they describe a 5 - 6 hour roll with smooth come up and very dilated pupils with very little come down, albeit with less stimulation and empathy and no comedown. IME the meh lasts at most 3 hours with very little pupil dilation, but a very hard come up and a fried feeling the next day, whereas the good shit comes on hard and smooth, lasts for 5 - 6 hours, stimulating as fuck and leaves me with an afterglow that lasts for days.

Can't get my head round this shit at all...

 

[Glubrahnum]

IME the meh lasts at most 3 hours with very little pupil dilation, but a very hard come up and a fried feeling the next day, whereas the good shit comes on hard and smooth, lasts for 5 - 6 hours, stimulating as fuck and leaves me with an afterglow that lasts for days.

Yes, the pupil dilation (mydriasis) and duration, are significant differences.

Can't get my head round this shit at all...

The difference does not need to be caused by just one factor.

 

[mooka]

imo.. after reading the citrate reports I'm pretty sure they're talking about real -magic- mdma, not meh... nearly psychedelic space, luscious music appreciation... sounds like top class mdma, even if the phamacokinetics are different with the citrate salt.. and if I'm not wrong somebody recently tried to freebase and convert meh product to hcl salt without any qualitative improvements

 

[AutoTripper]

Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener

Just to pick up on this, and I'm sure you're pretty bang on with your observations and feelings, virtually everything on mainstream television like entertainment shows and all types of films and programmes nowadays are very purposely designed to induce anxiety in the viewer. There's no question that the clever and sick minded elitists have covered every single angle as thoroughly and completely as they can to try and dampen our awareness and vibration and level of Joy and freedom.

No way are they going to to forget about the rave and musical scene. This all began a very long time ago of course, seeing the riddance of the likes of Bob Marley and Peter Tosh to get the ball rolling.

So I'm totally with you and what you say and observe about the music culture because I see it in every branch of media and entertainment unquestionably a very thorough and concerted attempt to promote anxiety and fear in a subtle and cunning manner whereby people willingly accept it and keep taking it in left right and centre.

You know, I never even actually considered that the Mehdma was a deliberate result of the elitists meddling in this area but I really could actually see such a thing being true in principle and theory anyway but I'm not saying I think it is likely or is actually the case.


Edit- I just remembered (this is all a world's cry from me these years, I never go anywhere), but when the UK annual Glastonbury comes on telly, it absolutely STUNS ME how absolutely shit the modern day artists and their music are, compared to ANY real musician and times gone by.

It really is not music in most cases, and the only highlight of the show which is any good at all involves the real talent of the past playing in their 50s or 60s like Sheryl Crowe this year singing her legendary Sunset Boulevard song.

I enjoyed that as I'm sure the crowd did but then they still seem to think that they were enjoying the ridiculous tambourine shit but the rest of the time.

As a race, in the last 20 years exactly, especially, we have been palmed off.

 

[me.and.emma]

@Phobos - This is a very real possibility. It does seem as though some of the artists use it as a way of calling out societal problems and our oppression, but others seem more sneaky in their ways about it. And often many of these artists go from lovers talking about peace and equality to suddenly sporting pyramids and eyes while simultaneously talking about “getting that money bitch” or “fuck You I got mine” type shit. The personality and music style shift is usually extreme and very sudden.

In the end it’s hard to know unfortunately.. The world is a confusing crazy place.

@Glubra - So here are some links. Almost all the information on this salt can be found exclusively over at the old vespiary site.

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg

www.thevespiary.org

400 mg of mdma citrate

400 mg of mdma citrate

www.thevespiary.org

Citrate Vs Hcl

Citrate Vs Hcl

www.thevespiary.org

mdma citrate report

mdma citrate report

www.thevespiary.org

In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility.. It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages. It’s effect profile also matches to some extent. But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?

-GC

very interesting read!
Note though that nobody found their experience unpleasant and unsatisfying, less euphoria yes and but less hang over also. Citrate is that like a vitamine C? Antioxidants while on the roll are neuroprotective. I supplement all my rolls with anti-oxidants, never have hang-overs.

Once though by accidents I ate some pure black chocolate on a roll, within 5 minutes I totally came down. That was extremely disappointing and I made a mental note never to do this again.

Though reading these trip reports, it does not sound like our mehmdma. Maybe mehmdma hides as one of the 22 imposter chemicals that Glubrahnum posted? But not in the salt variations?

 

[Glubrahnum]

Citrate is that like a vitamine C?

No, "citrate" is a salt of the Citric acid.
Vitamine C is the Ascorbic acid and its salts are called "ascorbates".

Both acids are sour.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Maybe mehMDMA hides as one of the 22 imposter chemicals...

Maybe. If I had a dozen of different preconsumed mehMDMA and a dozen of preconsumed magic MDMA samples, I could confirm or deny this possibility.

But not in the salt variations?

Still could be another salt, especially a salt of some chiral acid, which unbalances the 50/50 enantiomer ratio during salting and crystallization.
Again, I do not have enough preconsumed samples to confirm or deny this.

 

[indigoaura]

I have not read all those citrate reports in full, but it does not sound quite right. Yes, the slower onset seems correct, as well as the less intense "punch." But, I do not get anything remotely psychedelic off the MehDMA. The closest thing I can really come up with to compare MehDMA too is Xanax. I feel relaxed, and basically good. Sitting on the couch is comfortable. But music sounds normal, and the room looks completely normal, and colors are normal, and well, everything is basically fucking normal. It leaves me physically wrecked and hungover, but not depressed. Does not seem to totally align with what people are saying about the citrate.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I have not read all those citrate reports in full, but it does not sound quite right.

Yes, but the takeway from this is that the salt is capable of changing the drug's effects slightly and it certainly changes the active dose significantly. Thus the public labs should report it.
If the enantiomer ratio becomes unbalanced during crystallization after salting the racemic base with a chiral acid, then the drug's effects and active dose can be altered much more..

 

[me.and.emma]

I have not read all those citrate reports in full, but it does not sound quite right. Yes, the slower onset seems correct, as well as the less intense "punch." But, I do not get anything remotely psychedelic off the MehDMA. The closest thing I can really come up with to compare MehDMA too is Xanax. I feel relaxed, and basically good. Sitting on the couch is comfortable. But music sounds normal, and the room looks completely normal, and colors are normal, and well, everything is basically fucking normal. It leaves me physically wrecked and hungover, but not depressed. Does not seem to totally align with what people are saying about the citrate.

Then I don't have mehmdma but some other sort of bad mdma. the shit stuff I have does not make me feel relaxed or good. Nothing is comfortable, its' agony, one just hope it's finished soon. Plus the awful next day feeling queasy and achy. My bad mdma has stress receptors engaged not sleepy ones.

 

[indigoaura]

Plus the awful next day feeling queasy and achy.

I get that 100%.

When you say it is agony, and nothing is comfortable, what do you mean? Can you expand on that more? Do you literally have pain?

 

[AutoTripper]

Then I don't have mehmdma but some other sort of bad mdma. the shit stuff I have does not make me feel relaxed or good. Nothing is comfortable, its' agony, one just hope it's finished soon. Plus the awful next day feeling queasy and achy. My bad mdma has stress receptors engaged not sleepy ones.

I expect that there my be a wide variation of individual reactions to the questionable MDMA, woth some people more able to enjoy it and feel good, or think they feel good.

And for others the experience may be totally unenjoyable and even miserable. Soyou may both be taking the same product but having different experiences.

 

[indigoaura]

It is a hard experience to explain, honestly. For me, it feels like I am on my way somewhere, so there is always that deceptive belief that something good is around the corner, but I am just not quite there yet. My body does not always feel good. Sometimes, I feel distracted. I have had really bad results with doing it at concerts, and have literally almost fought other people at the concert several times. Sometimes I get hung up with a negative thought loop. If I am at home though, the inclination is to find a blanket and just be very still and non-communicative. People talking to me can be annoying. Music can be annoying, like, I lose interest and wonder what the next distraction will be.

 

[wenluojia]

As someone who’s been in the scene for awhile, I’ve watched the music and vibe go from one of love, hugs and good vibes to greed, hate, aggression, etc.. This isn’t jaded raver talking either, I still fully enjoy music and the scene today and actually prefer lots of the music I find today. It’s just it seems a negativity has begun to seep into even the relatively underground scene.

My theory on this is beyond bad MDMA though. That’s part of it, but I believe (talking conspiracies) that it’s a constructed effort to devalue and delegitimize the rave scene. Just like the beautiful hippie/classic rock culture was mutilated and destroyed, eventually becoming the hate filled metal scene over time.

Over the past decade eyes, pyramids, and owls have become symbols that permeate pretty much every single show and festival you can go to. I’ve always gone to smaller events, but even little festivals (100-3000 ppl sized) are overran with this shit. Whether you believe in some organization running the world or not, it gets old to constantly be bombarded with this imagery.

I’ve also caught artists (after using reverse playback) beginning to slip in really demonic phrases that you can only catch if you know what your listening to. Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener. These artists also, IMO, are often not that great yet somehow rise fast in the scene and gain huge following.

Now I understand the difference between inducing anxiety and building hype in a track, the two are different IMO. The worst part is the same artists always talk love and good vibes but their actions don’t line up at all.

Also at the bigger festivals these days you’ll find presses and LSD blotter with this same symbolism. So much blotter with all seeing eye and pyramids on them... (Often they feel different too. Hard to say with placebo but more hedonistic and less inwardly.)

There is definitely the possibility of some foul play. Or coincidentally everyone happens to think this symbolism is “super cool” at the same relative time, and we’re seeing the result of that?

Weird world we live in..

-GC

I can't completely agree with that statement, GC. I've been around the scene of electronic music in central Europe for some years now, and there are heaps of great, positive music producers around (Acid Pauli, Heimlich Knüller, and many other German acts, etc.). The usually smaller electronic festivals I go to are fantastic, the ambiance and mood is great, the people are wonderful. It is a great scene all around. Regarding the pyramids, one of the best blotters going around these days features these symbols, and it's some of of the best acid on the market you can find. While I find these thoughts interesting, others in other posts too, I find that they steer too much towards the realm of conspiracy theory.

Any lab can determine the salt type easily - they just do not seem to care about it....nor do the public labs report it.
Hell, anyone could do some high-school chemistry in their kitchen and determine the salt type, if they put their mind to it.

BTW: I've mentioned the citrate only because it was the farthest away from the hydrochloride. Personally, I have encountered the tartrate recently.

Actually, if you check ecstasydata.org, there are many, many results from Switzerland. There are two public labs which do „High Performance Liquid Chromatography“, and if you look at the results over the last years (click on the PDF), they always list the salt, too. It is always *HCl, I haven't seen anything else yet.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I haven't seen that but it is a move in the right direction, The Swiss are known for doing things well. I noticed that they have detected the unknown N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy Benzylamide.
I hope the hydrochloride is not an assumption.

 

[Phobos]

I haven't seen that but it is a move in the right direction, The Swiss are known for doing things well. I noticed that they have detected the unknown N-methyl-3,4- methylenedioxy Benzylamide.
I hope the hydrochloride is not an assumption.

Is that more likely to be an intermediate or the result of an impure precursor?

 

[Glubrahnum]

Is that more likely to be an intermediate or the result of an impure precursor?

More of an intermediate of the synth

 

[BlueBull]

I can't completely agree with that statement, GC. I've been around the scene of electronic music in central Europe for some years now, and there are heaps of great, positive music producers around (Acid Pauli, Heimlich Knüller, and many other German acts, etc.). The usually smaller electronic festivals I go to are fantastic, the ambiance and mood is great, the people are wonderful. It is a great scene all around

I can confirm this for France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg as well. The rave scene is still alive and loving. As you say though, you have to stick to the smaller festivals

However, I think this amazing atmosphere is more due to the general vibe of the crowd and the kinds of people at these kinds of events and less with the quality of the drugs. I have not noticed the hostile, egocentric effect this 'bad' MDMA has on crowds as described in some posts in here but I have noticed a sharp decline in the intensity of empathogenic and 'loved up' effects the MDMA has these days. And at the festivals I attend that is canceled out to some degree by the positive vibe this kind of crowd naturally has, they do not need much chemical assistance to act extremely empathic and loving, but the difference in effects is noticeable even there nevertheless, though much less than at more mainstream events. I have been taking MDMA for around 19 years now so I can compare a bit.

I have debated for years against the supposed differences between old and more recent MDMA because I have seriously abused the drug for years in a row and I assumed it must be that I ruined the drug for myself because of this abuse. That is until a few years ago I ran into some unknown random pills that completely changed my perspective on that. It was like it was a different drug altogether, exactly how I remembered my earlier rolls. These pills were tested with 3 different reagents, not lab tested so I'm not absolutely sure that they contained only MDMA, only that they did contain MDMA and maybe nothing else. After my first experience with them I went back to the dealer because I only bought 3 and had given 2 to mates that night. I asked to buy his entire supply (he only had 30 left), he refused and said these pills were the best he's had in years and years and that he was keeping them. I offered him double the going rate, refused, triple, refused. I went all the way up to ten times (!!!) the going rate and he refused and said he would not accept any offer. This guy had been selling for years and was in it for the money. That right there told me I was right about these pills and that there was something to this debate after all

I have made a report about them which I will link below. However, disclaimer this was years ago, don't go looking for these pills because by now if you happen to run into ones that looks like that it's almost 100% certain not the same ones
Report